"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Nerdlingr · 22-05-2019 01:51AM

2ndcoming wrote: »

One thing we can be glad about now that it's over, is never hearing this idiotic argument again.

The royal we. I'm sure you speak for all.
Thank you for your input. Riveting stuff.

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 10:29AM

Currently away in China with work so only got to see it yesterday.

I know we've all been bitching and complaining about the entire series and I know we all made jokes about D&D directing the last episode but, really like, that was a complete ****ing travesty of an episode to round off a complete ****ing travesty of a season.

The fact that R+L=J meant nothing, absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of things. If that's GRRM's plan for the story in the books, having set it up from 25 years, I'll be very mad.

Just absolute ****ing nonsense throughout. I have so many questions about things but the one I'm really interested in is what happened to shadowfax.

....... · 22-05-2019 10:34AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

The fact that R+L=J meant nothing, absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of things. If that's GRRM's plan for the story in the books, having set it up from 25 years, I'll rape his ****ing corpse.

Surely the purpose of that was for Jon to be the one who threatened Danerys destiny and send her over the edge into Mad Queen mode?

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 10:40AM

....... wrote: »

Surely the purpose of that was for Jon to be the one who threatened Danerys destiny and send her over the edge into Mad Queen mode?

That's it? Really? The single biggest detail, teased for literally decades in the books about, potentially, their most important character is to serve as plot device to explain or excuse the motivations of another character?

Anyone sated or satisfied with that needs higher standards.

The one good moment, and I mean that in the literal sense of single, solitary moment, was how tender Drogon was with Dany's body. Quite touching actually and an impressive achievement to really humanise the sense of loss of a CGI dragon.

Tazzimus · 22-05-2019 10:51AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

The one good moment, and I mean that in the literal sense of single, solitary moment, was how tender Drogon was with Dany's body. Quite touching actually and an impressive achievement to really humanise the sense of loss of a CGI dragon.

Tyrion finding Jaime and Cersei was fantastically acted I thought.
Dinklage carried that episode.

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 11:01AM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Tyrion finding Jaime and Cersei was fantastically acted I thought.
Dinklage carried that episode.

True, but, for me, him finding the hand was just one of a whole host of anything little contrivances throughout the episode.

Why was Drogon hidden buried beneath a big pile of ash, snow and rubble? Because he looked awesome waking up from it.

Why was it suddenly snowing in KL? Because Dany looks awesome against the white. I'd be pretty confident that her vision of KL back in Qarth in S2 was snow rather than ash and they tried to retrofit it to the mad Queen angle once they decided to do that direction. Everyone has been talking about how the mad Queen theory has been played about for years. ABOUT CERSEI FFS.

Why was there a whole deal last week about Ghost (poor, poor neglected Ghost) going north only to get reunited with Jon the following week? There's just been so many gaps in continuity and consistency.

....... · 22-05-2019 11:05AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Anyone sated or satisfied with that needs higher standards.

I didnt realise you were the standards police!

Tazzimus · 22-05-2019 11:18AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

True, but, for me, him finding the hand was just one of a whole host of anything little contrivances throughout the episode.

Why was Drogon hidden buried beneath a big pile of ash, snow and rubble? Because he looked awesome waking up from it.

Why was it suddenly snowing in KL? Because Dany looks awesome against the white. I'd be pretty confident that her vision of KL back in Qarth in S2 was snow rather than ash and they tried to retrofit it to the mad Queen angle once they decided to do that direction. Everyone has been talking about how the mad Queen theory has been played about for years. ABOUT CERSEI FFS.

Why was there a whole deal last week about Ghost (poor, poor neglected Ghost) going north only to get reunited with Jon the following week? There's just been so many gaps in continuity and consistency.

True, finding them in that one pile of rock was a bit stupid. Scene played out well after that part though.

The rest was just cool looking shots, something the show isn't exactly about; Drogon under the snow/ash like you said, spreading his wings behind Dany etc.

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 11:24AM

....... wrote: »

I didnt realise you were the standards police!

Ok, if you're content that R+L=J and everything behind it and all the years of hints and tips as to its meaning and significance (you know, that THERE WAS A TRUEBORN SON OF RHAEGAR TARGARYEN WITH A RIGHTFUL CLAIM TO THE IRON THRONE WHO ALSO HAPPENED TO BE A SON OF LYANNA STARK AND WAS, THEREFORE, ICE AND FIRE AS ONE) was all simply motivation for Dany to barbecue people, that's great. I'm not.

....... · 22-05-2019 11:26AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Ok, if you're content that R+L=J and everything behind it and all the years of hints and tips as to its meaning and significance (you know, that THERE WAS A TRUEBORN SON OF RHAEGAR TARGARYEN WITH A RIGHTFUL CLAIM TO THE IRON THRONE WHO ALSO HAPPENED TO BE A SOON OF LYANNA STARK AND WAS, THEREFORE, ICE AND FIRE AS ONE) was all simply motivation for Dany to barbecue people, that's great. I'm not.

You seem to be missing the deeper meaning there. But youre too aggressive to bother discussing with.

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 11:35AM

....... wrote: »

You seem to be missing the deeper meaning there. But youre too aggressive to bother discussing with.

I'm missing the deeper meaning? Really?

You're the one who thinks "oh Dany was tipped over the edge by her perception of Jon as a threat" and thinks that that's a satisfactory conclusion to one of the biggest open secret plot lines of the last 25 years of popular fiction.

....... · 22-05-2019 11:48AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I'm missing the deeper meaning? Really?

You're the one who thinks "oh Dany was tipped over the edge by her perception of Jon as a threat" and thinks that that's a satisfactory conclusion to one of the biggest open secret plot lines of the last 25 years of popular fiction.

Yeah whatever............

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 11:50AM

....... wrote: »

Yeah whatever............

A thoroughly engaging debate.

Go on, please tell me what you find "deep" about what they did with it?

....... · 22-05-2019 11:52AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

A thoroughly engaging debate.

Go on, please tell me what you find "deep" about what they did with it?

Youre just embarrassing yourself now.

Do go away please.

PirateShampoo · 22-05-2019 12:25PM

....... wrote: »

Youre just embarrassing yourself now.

Do go away please.

Your just being obnoxious, he's right though. The who Jon is a Targ meant nothing. They could have cut the whole North out of the series and we would still ended up at the burning of Kingslanding. Literally nothing changed in Westoros from plot to what we got in the final. We had a little shuffle about during the middle part but everything is back to the way it was.

Yermande · 22-05-2019 12:25PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Tyrion finding Jaime and Cersei was fantastically acted I thought.
Dinklage carried that episode.

Yeah that was impressive and probably my first real sight of what so many others seem to see in Dinklage, because I don't think he's been a particularly standout performer. I found his accent constantly distracting. What a role to land though and he certainly made the most of it. More power to him.

....... · 22-05-2019 12:33PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Your just being obnoxious, he's right though.

No. In fact I am not the obnoxious poster here.

I offered an opinion that was met with a "hurr hurr you have no standards" which I responded to with a light comment about the standards police. This was met with an aggressive CAPS LOCK comment again making out that there was something wrong with ME for being content with the storyline (note - I never once claimed I was content but anyway....). At this point I just decided the poster wasnt worth engaging with and told them so. Which they AGAIN met with a snarky comment and indicated with the use of quotes that they found my comment about a deeper meaning laughable. A comment that I havent even given any detail about!

In short, the poster was acting like a know it all child. So if you think that makes me the obnoxious person in that exchange - cool! But I think its clear to most people where the obnoxious behaviour is.

NomadicGray · 22-05-2019 12:45PM

....... wrote: »

No. In fact I am not the obnoxious poster here.

I offered an opinion that was met with a "hurr hurr you have no standards" which I responded to with a light comment about the standards police. This was met with an aggressive CAPS LOCK comment again making out that there was something wrong with ME for being content with the storyline (note - I never once claimed I was content but anyway....). At this point I just decided the poster wasnt worth engaging with and told them so. Which they AGAIN met with a snarky comment and indicated with the use of quotes that they found my comment about a deeper meaning laughable. A comment that I havent even given any detail about!

In short, the poster was acting like a know it all child. So if you think that makes me the obnoxious person in that exchange - cool! But I think its clear to most people where the obnoxious behaviour is.

Youre just embarrassing yourself now.

Yermande · 22-05-2019 12:56PM

Lads will you both just move on from this please. It's going nowhere.

tuathal07 · 22-05-2019 01:08PM

Yermande wrote: »

Lads will you both just move on from this please. It's going nowhere.

I wish somebody had said this in the writing room

iLikeWaffles · 22-05-2019 01:12PM

tuathal07 wrote: »

I wish somebody had said this in the writing room

It was probably said far too many times!

Foxtrol · 22-05-2019 02:25PM

tuathal07 wrote: »

I wish somebody had said this in the writing room

Should have been said more to GRRM than anyone else. I'm sure when D&D were starting the show he didn't tell them he'd make square root of f-all progress in the core material and that they wouldn't have had to do all the leg work in contracting the world into an ending.

Foxtrol · 22-05-2019 02:32PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Ok, if you're content that R+L=J and everything behind it and all the years of hints and tips as to its meaning and significance (you know, that THERE WAS A TRUEBORN SON OF RHAEGAR TARGARYEN WITH A RIGHTFUL CLAIM TO THE IRON THRONE WHO ALSO HAPPENED TO BE A SON OF LYANNA STARK AND WAS, THEREFORE, ICE AND FIRE AS ONE) was all simply motivation for Dany to barbecue people, that's great. I'm not.

That's the problem with fans twisting themselves in knots with theories and putting them on a pedestal. It makes them seem much more important than they may actually be, despite this specific case having a rather large impact on the show itself.

s7ryf3925pivug · 22-05-2019 02:47PM

It wasn't snowing. It was floating ash. It was the vision she had in season 2, when it was taken to be snow.

Dany has consistently been inclined to slaughter her enemies since the very start. We just didn't notice too much when they were horrific people and her actions were curtailed by cooler heads. Tyrion actually explained this in the last episode. It wasn't so much a tipping point as her showing her true colours.

TerrorFirmer · 22-05-2019 02:55PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Should have been said more to GRRM than anyone else. I'm sure when D&D were starting the show he didn't tell them he'd make square root of f-all progress in the core material and that they wouldn't have had to do all the leg work in contracting the world into an ending.

That's not remotely a valid excuse either; these guys are paid a ton of money to write Game of Thrones and it's completely reasonable to expect a lot better.

GRRM gave them an outline to work from. If he had the books written, then inevitably the final season would've been much better granted, but there is no excuse for how bad the scripting and dialogue has been this season.

That is entirely on them. If they felt they weren't up to the task without GRRM's book material to draw their scripting and dialogue from, they should have assembled a writing staff.

But they didn't, and the episodes of S8 they wrote (E03-E06) are riddled with scripting issues - inconsistencies, illogical behaviors, pacing, poor dialogue, etc.

Brian Cogman's "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" is miles ahead of any of their episodes in that department.

We've seen this before when George Lucas was given total creative autonomy on the Star Wars prequels. Plagued by very similar scripting issues.

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 02:59PM

Valentino Mammoth Orchestra wrote: »

It wasn't snowing. It was floating ash. It was the vision she had in season 2, when it was taken to be snow.

Dany has consistently been inclined to slaughter her enemies since the very start. We just didn't notice too much when they were horrific people and her actions were curtailed by cooler heads. Tyrion actually explained this in the last episode. It wasn't so much a tipping point as her showing her true colours.

It was snowing. When Jon is laying her down on the ground after he stabs her, it's clearly snow, not ash.

EagererBeaver · 22-05-2019 03:01PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

That's the problem with fans twisting themselves in knots with theories and putting them on a pedestal. It makes them seem much more important than they may actually be, despite this specific case having a rather large impact on the show itself.

This specific theory is fundamental to the lore though. Martin used it to test D&D when they first approached him about doing the show by asking them who Jon Snow's mother was. Jon is one of the two or three most central characters and how unknown ancestry is huge.

Foxtrol · 22-05-2019 03:48PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

That's not remotely a valid excuse either; these guys are paid a ton of money to write Game of Thrones and it's completely reasonable to expect a lot better.

GRRM gave them an outline to work from. If he had the books written, then inevitably the final season would've been much better granted, but there is no excuse for how bad the scripting and dialogue has been this season.

That is entirely on them. If they felt they weren't up to the task without GRRM's book material to draw their scripting and dialogue from, they should have assembled a writing staff.

But they didn't, and the episodes of S8 they wrote (E03-E06) are riddled with scripting issues - inconsistencies, illogical behaviors, pacing, poor dialogue, etc.

Brian Cogman's "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" is miles ahead of any of their episodes in that department.

We've seen this before when George Lucas was given total creative autonomy on the Star Wars prequels. Plagued by very similar scripting issues.

I can say that the comment ‘just move on from this please, it's going nowhere’ is much more appropriate when directed at GRRM than D&D, without excusing D&D for their own mistakes.

GRRM made such a convoluted mess of the plot in the world he created that he became so stuck that he released 2 books in 19 years, with general consensus being that later books themselves seeing a lowering in quality.

I don’t find it difficult to sympathize with the situation D&D were put in while also being critical of things that they could have dealt with better.

Tazzimus · 22-05-2019 03:59PM

I think the blame can be laid at the feet of all three.
George for his absolutely glacial writing pace, D&D for their extremely sub-par writing after the book material ran out, with a few exceptions thrown in there.

Foxtrol · 22-05-2019 04:03PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

This specific theory is fundamental to the lore though. Martin used it to test D&D when they first approached him about doing the show by asking them who Jon Snow's mother was. Jon is one of the two or three most central characters and how unknown ancestry is huge.

Fundamental to lore doesn’t mean the whole show has to hang on it, especially in a way that beats you over the head with it.

At this point I’m not sure what would have satisfied you, aside from something like Jon being made king or some sort of massive push for that to happen. For me that reveal had plenty enough impact on show through how it influenced the decisions of everyone who found out about it.

Since the early days of Lost I loved fan theories. Most people seem to enjoy coming up with and discussing them, but for an element it can really lead to toxicness, when certain fans either don’t get the answer to the question, don’t get an answer they like, or the answer doesn’t have the impact they want it to have. It doesn’t seem healthy.

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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