"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Daith

Deleted User wrote: »

I liked that. Westeros was never her home.

Yup, or Drogon's for that matter. He lost his mother and siblings going West.

The White Wolf wrote: »

Have to say I enjoyed Arya putting Yara in her box.

I found the "I know a killer when I see one" to be clunky but no issue with Arya being protective of Jon.

I do wonder if Bran know what is west of Westeros.

fitz

Necro wrote: »

They could have still had that ending in the North if Jon had just flown off on Drogon. Keeping him in Kings Landing as a prisoner where Greyworm had been slitting throats of prisoners not ten minutes prior just seemed ridiculous.

Nah, Drogon was Dany's. Jon flying off on him would have been too much imo.
He could have been out to the northern forces before anyone knew what had happened.

jonsnow

fitz wrote: »

Nah, Drogon was Dany's. Jon flying off on him would have been too much imo.
He could have been out to the northern forces before anyone knew what had happened.

But he probably just marched out and told them what he he had done which is consistent with his character.

Its a bit of a stretch that he wasn't executed on the spot but if dany is dead and theres an army of angry northerners outside then maybe just maybe Grey Worm decided to hold off.

One thing I do like is that the starks are now de facto rulers of the Westerosi continent from Dorne to the lands of always winter. Does any of it make any sense - who cares!!!!

Daith

I thought Bran could only see the present and past (though him seeing the wildfire and Drogon flying over Kings Landing did kinda disprove that).

Now with confirmation he can see the future, did he manipulate everything and everyone to become King?

pinkypinky

Not so much a bang as a whimper.

Things I liked:

Drogon checking if Dany was alive and then picking her gently up and flying away. Well done and impressive to inject pathos into a CGI dragon.
Jon and Ghost
Sansa as queen in the north
The moment of levity when Sam suggested democracy and when Edmure tried to offer himself as king.

Things I didn't like:
Why would Brienne not mention that Jaime knighted her?
As above, Tyrion should absolutely be mentioned in the book.
Bran as king. Yeah, he's grand but zero personality

That 2 full seasons could have made this ending more satisfying but I suppose it'll do.

Daith

Sansa's weirwood leaf coronation dress was beautiful.

paulbok

awec wrote: »

I think Bran as King will be the ending in the book, but it will be properly explained in the book, with events in the build up to it to make it plausible.

The way it happened in the show doesn't make sense. Just don't feel there was anywhere near enough plot development for it to happen. Tyrion's explanation for picking him was thin at best. Bran accepting it, when he previously said he could never be lord or anything, needed more explanation.

For all the various Lords to select a King on a whim doesn't seem right. They went from deciding what to do with Tyrion, to deciding to electing a King, to electing a King in the space of about 10 minutes.

My guess for the books is that the White Walkers threat doesn't get completely resolved, they get beaten but reawaken somehow in the North.
Gives a valid reason for making Bran king, to better prepare the 7 kingdoms for the next WW invasion.
Also a reason for Jon to take the black and rebuild the wall/ Nightswatch.

jonsnow

jonsnow wrote: »

But he probably just marched out and told them what he he had done which is consistent with his character.

Its a bit of a stretch that he wasn't executed on the spot but if dany is dead and theres an army of angry northerners outside then maybe just maybe Grey Worm decided to hold off.

One thing I do like is that the starks are now de facto rulers of the Westerosi continent from Dorne to the lands of always winter. Does any of it make any sense - who cares!!!!

Many were complaining about the cutaway from when Jon/Bran went to tell Arya and Sansa about his Targaryen lineage in episode 4. It's the cutaway in the finale after Jon kills Dany which bugs me though.

I'm trying to envision a scenario where Jon comes out of the Throne room, confesses what he has done, and the Unsullied/Dothraki don't murder him on the spot.

Maybe Jon went to Grey Worm and opened with something like "I'm about to tell you something, but if you kill me, thousands of my people will wipe you and your people out of existence. You must give me a trial...'

Yep, it's a stretch. Grey Worm's actor did try his best to seem pissed in the Dragon Pit that his Queen and saviour was murdered in cold blood, but the material just wasn't there for him to do much with - "Grrr, not enough"...He had reverted to unknowing foreigner for this scene, yet in other recent episodes he was speaking the 'common tongue' more fluently than Jon Snow.

Frankie5Angels

Overall I think this episode did a decent job of wrapping things up given what happened before. The problem lies in the rushed 5 piles of sh1te before this.

Bran: So he's just been plodding along letting stuff happen so he could be king? Ok, flesh it out a bit then, give us a bit of background.

Sansa: was always going to come out of this with something. Liked her consistency in that she wouldn't even bend the knee to Bran.

Dany: to paraphrase another HBO show, she was always gonna 'get got' after the last one. I'm indifferent to her death, but her supposed madness felt a bit 'Revenge of the Sith'. 'I'm the dark lord, you should kill me per your training and beliefs up to now but I can help you, go kill younglings'. 'Okey dokey, boss'.

Jon: Follows the fate of Aemon Tagaryen it would seem. Glad Ghost finally got the attention he deserved, but a bit of a 'meh' ending for Jon. Being held prisoner, saying nothing of his birthright in the end...hmmmm.

No Worm: Worst character in the series. Useless. Beyond useless. Hated him. Makes Jar Jar Binks look like an Oscar-winning role. Corny ould sh1te sending him off to Naath. He killed a lot of innocents, he should have been killed.

Tyrion: His decline as a character in this season is horrific. From mastermind to idiot. Pretty unrealistic end too: 'you shouldn't let me speak, for me speaking has resulted in many dying'. *speaks anyway, names Bran king*. Everyone else: "let's listen to the prisoner in ragged clothes who's responsible for the death of many and make Bran king and also change the way our ruler is chosen".

Arya: Ugh.

Bronn: what a terrible end to a great character.

Drogon: I'm not sure why he didn't roast Jon (who prob would have survived) when he realised Dany was brown bread. Pretty poor, pointless ending for the dragons.


They'll prob not be published, but I hope the books serve up better fare than this last season.

Necro

Deleted User wrote: »

Many were complaining about the cutaway from when Jon/Bran went to tell Arya and Sansa about his Targaryen lineage in episode 4. It's the cutaway in the finale after Jon kills Dany which bugs me though.

I'm trying to envision a scenario where Jon comes out of the Throne room, confesses what he has done, and the Unsullied/Dothraki don't murder him on the spot.

Maybe Jon went to Grey Worm and opened with something like "I'm about to tell you something, but if you kill me, thousands of my people will wipe you and your people out of existence. You must give me a trial...'

Yep, it's a stretch. Grey Worm's actor did try his best to seem pissed in the Dragon Pit that his Queen and saviour was murdered in cold blood, but the material just wasn't there for him to do much with - "Grrr, not enough"...He had reverted to unknowing foreigner for this scene, yet in other recent episodes he was speaking the 'common tongue' more fluently than Jon Snow.

It bugs you because the entire scenario makes absolutely no sense in fairness.

Jon disarms himself to speak to Tyrion who is a prisoner of the queen and accused of treason.

Yet is allowed to rearm himself and wander essentially un-noticed by all bar Drogon in to see Dany.

It was patently awful tbh.

And that's before I get going on 'Bran the Broken'.

Frankie5Angels

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Bronn: what a terrible end to a great character.

Agreed. What exactly has he done for the story since he saved Jaime from Drogon fire last season?

He should have went out in that episode in a literal blaze of glory. He took a shot at Drogon with a ballista, he scurried around and got one of those GoT trademark tracking shots to follow him in that dragon attack, Bronn was genuinely scared and the stakes were never higher for him in the show.

With GRRM writing that (not saying he's going to put that in the books, just an example), Bronn wouldn't have survived and would have bowed out then. Even Jaime might have died too rather than survive a face-to-face with Drogon.

But no, not in this show where Bronn is a 'fan favourite' and executives and showrunners are focused on things such as 'Q scores' (a measurement of the familiarity of a brand, company or in this case, a character)

Cantona's Collars

Necro wrote: »

It bugs you because the entire scenario makes absolutely no sense in fairness.

Jon disarms himself to speak to Tyrion who is a prisoner of the queen and accused of treason.

Yet is allowed to rearm himself and wander essentially un-noticed by all bar Drogon in to see Dany.

It was patently awful tbh.

And that's before I get going on 'Bran the Broken'.

It's protocol that nobody gets to see prisoners while armed.
He's been beside Dany all this time and never questioned her,there was no reason for anyone to challenge him plus having a big dragon sat outside the door makes a pretty good watchdog.
Drogon is used to him so let him pass, anyone else might have had a problem though.

blanch152

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Drogon: I'm not sure why he didn't roast Jon (who prob would have survived) when he realised Dany was brown bread. Pretty poor, pointless ending for the dragons.


.

Drogon wasn't going to kill the last Targaryen.

Frankie5Angels

blanch152 wrote: »

Drogon wasn't going to kill the last Targaryen.

But sure how was he to know?

Riddle101

After reflecting on the ending, I think i'm ok with how they finished things.

I always thought that Jon would sit the Iron Throne because he made a natural leader and his history speaks for itself, but the more I think about it, the more I think Jon wasn't really made for it. Jon never wanted to be king. He was always conflicted about being a leader and having to deal with all the political bulls*it and backstabbing. Having Jon become a Wilding makes more sense because it gives him a chance to finally be free. I think we all want to be free when it comes down to it, and now Jon has his freedom among the Wildings who have accepted Jon and have a good relationship with him.

Sansa ensuring the North remains independent was an interesting move, but it makes sense. An independent North is for the better I think. Although personally I think the Seven Kingdoms should have been allowed to remain independent and go back to the way things were before Aegon's Conquest.

Bran being king was totally unforeseen but I'll accept it because he has the wisdom for it I guess.

One thing that stands out to be is the Dothraki. What happens to them now that Daenerys is dead? I'd imagine the Six Kingdoms will have their hands full dealing with the Dothraki.

Tazzimus

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Drogon: I'm not sure why he didn't roast Jon (who prob would have survived) when he realised Dany was brown bread. Pretty poor, pointless ending for the dragons.

I'm not sure where people are getting Jon is fireproof from.
He burned himself killing the wight that attacked Jeor Motmont, he's not fireproof.
It's not even a common thing among the Targaryens.

Daith

Riddle101 wrote: »

One thing that stands out to be is the Dothraki. What happens to them now that Daenerys is dead? I'd imagine the Six Kingdoms will have their hands full dealing with the Dothraki.

They'll remember they all actually died during The Long Night and cease to exist.

Mr.Prodston

Yikes....

I can't really muster the energy to dissect things like I used to a few years ago. And that in itself sums up the show for me now.

Generally speaking, everyone ending up where they did made some semblance of sense (okay a lot of it didn't either)!

But, what's the point in everyone getting to those places if the journey to get there DOES NOT make sense. GoT was a show that built up to things happening, you could see the reasoning play out on screen, or the ground work for a TWIST to occur. Sure in the middle seasons I didn't necessarily like the direction of certain actions but they at least presented reasons why they occurred!

I have 100's of questions which I'd like answers to but the main question is: Why not do 10 episodes in season 7 and 10 episodes in season 8?

Keep the structure of the show intact.

Was it really because D&D lost interest ahead of the Star Wars trilogy? I can't get my head around that, surely that could have waited another year, if they were the right people for the job. Finish what you started. Surely the Endgame (i'm sorry) is the most important part of their legacy?

It can't have been money? Surely HBO would have happily spent a few extra tens of millions on producing non-set piece episodes. Show a logic, build a tension. Imagine a few episodes of Dany walking around like Darth Vader, showing Jon struggle with the weight of his decision instead of a 10 minute chat with Tyrion...who could have walked up behind her and stabbed her himself as she was delivering her rally?

That's before we get to Bran. Who I like. We know there's an element of sense to his appointment, but demonstrate to us why? This guy has rolled around saying creepy things and giving us no answers for the season. A little intrigue, a little backstory with the Night King.....did he know Dany was going to burn KL to the ground and subsequently he would become king? Or was that just another oversight in the writing?

______

This is a reasonably calm Mr.P, with a general nonchalance about the whole thing. Cliched not mad but disappointed.

Imagine if I was still mad though? That's why I'm not mentioning Greyworm....

I really like last week, aside from certain plot holes. Really liked it. The first 30/40 minutes here were good. We just needed so much more of that.

Why was there such a rush, in what seems like an arbitrary deadline they set for themselves. We waited 2 years for these 6 episodes, we could have waited another 6 months for a few well written (which they're clearly capable of producing) episodes that joined the dots.

At least Jon got to pet the dog

Mr.Prodston

Oh and I also liked the mention of Maester Aemon. That was nice.

The White Wolf

Sansa played the game right up until the end and I was surprised no one else chanced their arm once Bran agreed to allow the North be an independent Kingdom.....I mean not even Yara?

Sansa is a weird one for me. A lot of people seemed to love her this season but underneath all her talk about wanting to maintain the North's independence for her people, I think there's just a calculating shark who wanted her own power. She contributed to a significant loss of life by setting a game in motion that would serve her own interests.

Daith

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Oh and I also liked the mention of Maester Aemon. That was nice.

Yes and the lingering shot of Ser Barristan Selmy's entry in the book.

Frankie5Angels

Tazzimus wrote: »

I'm not sure where people are getting Jon is fireproof from.
He burned himself killing the wight that attacked Jeor Motmont, he's not fireproof.
It's not even a common thing among the Targaryens.

He burned himself in season 1 of the tv series, probably before they knew where they were going with it and using Jon instead of 'Young Griff'?

Happily admit I don't know enough about the Targs to know how many of them are fireproof and how many aren't.

My point was I was wondering why Drogon left Jon alone despite the fact he was after killing Drogon's 'Mother'. Was a bit of a non-event ending of the dragon storyline for me, that's all.

Tazzimus

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

He burned himself in season 1 of the tv series, probably before they knew where they were going with it and using Jon instead of 'Young Griff'?

Happily admit I don't know enough about the Targs to know how many of them are fireproof and how many aren't.

My point was I was wondering why Drogon left Jon alone despite the fact he was after killing Drogon's 'Mother'. Was a bit of a non-event ending of the dragon storyline for me, that's all.

Drogon probably forgot he did it :pac:

For all we know, Jon could suddenly be fireproof, that's the kind of writing we're dealing with.
Viserys wasn't fireproof either and he was full Targ, not half Targ half Stark like Jon.

Dave_The_Sheep

Grey Worm is such an insufferable bellend.

Lone Stone

i love bran in the books, my favorite character next to jon. But in the show he's a mentally retarded creeper and now he has a crown and that was a ****ing abysmally insulting way to end the show i feel sorry for the cast and crew what a **** season.

Foxtrol

The White Wolf wrote: »

Sansa played the game right up until the end and I was surprised no one else chanced their arm once Bran agreed to allow the North be an independent Kingdom.....I mean not even Yara?

Yara had just been put back in her box by Arya, the Iron Islands are in a much weaker position than the North, and are much less predictable than the North so need to be kept in line. Out of all the Houses there the North makes the most sense to be independent, but they should have had Sansa make a better case for it (possibly through another House making the same request).

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yara had just been put back in her box by Arya, the Iron Islands are in a much weaker position than the North, and are much less predictable than the North so need to be kept in line. Out of all the Houses there the North makes the most sense to be independent, but they should have had Sansa make a better case for it (possibly through another House making the same request).

There's a pretty decent chance that Yara would prefer for the Iron Islands to be in the North's new kingdom if the couldn't secede. That would have made for a somewhat interesting extra minute at that meeting.

ckeng

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yara had just been put back in her box by Arya, the Iron Islands are in a much weaker position than the North, and are much less predictable than the North so need to be kept in line. Out of all the Houses there the North makes the most sense to be independent, but they should have had Sansa make a better case for it (possibly through another House making the same request).

Who would she make a case to though? There's no ruler left, certainly no ruler with enough clout to say no. For me, once Sansa didn't buy into having a new king that should have been the end of the single ruler idea. Dorne and the Iron Islands secede, the Vale join the North and Gendry and Edmure try and sort out the rest between them, maybe Tyrion gets the Rock if he want's another crack at ruling.

leggo

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Was it really because D&D lost interest ahead of the Star Wars trilogy? I can't get my head around that, surely that could have waited another year, if they were the right people for the job. Finish what you started. Surely the Endgame (i'm sorry) is the most important part of their legacy?

It can't have been money? Surely HBO would have happily spent a few extra tens of millions on producing non-set piece episodes. Show a logic, build a tension. Imagine a few episodes of Dany walking around like Darth Vader, showing Jon struggle with the weight of his decision instead of a 10 minute chat with Tyrion...who could have walked up behind her and stabbed her himself as she was delivering her rally?

I think the Star Wars thing is just fans looking for a stick to beat them with by putting the two things they know about D&D together and assuming it must be true.

What's much more likely is that they broke down the episodes based out of what they have and went for 13 'great' episodes (regardless of what you thought of the finished product) all with major happenings than 20 mediocre episodes. Lack of source material definitely hurt, if they had the finished books they could make more natural climaxes out of happenings there. But that's on GRRM, not them. I'd imagine they also wanted to stay relatively faithful to the framework GRRM had laid out for them too and, again, without actual source material to work with they'd have to go their own way to flesh that out. The problem there is, if they did that, then they ran the risk of having to go with a different conclusion or their conclusion not making sense because they'd then have to double back to GRRM's story. It's all well and good us saying Dany should've had more time to lurk and be generally 'bad', but an hour of television is a long time and has to satiate an audience for a week so, if you don't have anywhere in particular to go with that, then you're better off leaving people wanting more.

So the rushed pace is most likely GRRM's fault. But instead he gets lionised by doing absolutely nothing and the people that actually do the work get slated. 2019 folks! :pac:

Foxtrol

ckeng wrote: »

Who would she make a case to though? There's no ruler left, certainly no ruler with enough clout to say no. For me, once Sansa didn't buy into having a new king that should have been the end of the single ruler idea. Dorne and the Iron Islands secede, the Vale join the North and Gendry and Edmure try and sort out the rest between them, maybe Tyrion gets the Rock if he want's another crack at ruling.

The wider group. Pretty much all the other Houses have new rulers and/or are severely weakened. It makes sense that an alliance amongst them under one wise, not power-hungry king would make sense are they rebuild. Go your route and you’re likely off to war again pretty quickly. With the north being isolated and with Sansa being the sister of the king, and related to 2 of the other strongest houses, unlikely to cause any hassle to the rest.

Sure they could have gone your route, but the way they did makes sense. It just should have been explained a bit better.