"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 08:59PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fine for people to complain on social media or message boards but it is an outrageous level of self-entitlement for people to create or sign a petition saying 'I didn't like it, make it again. I deserve to get what I want, screw the people who made it and anyone who enjoyed it...'.

What even makes it worse, these people haven't even seen nearly 20% of the season yet.

You'd be embarrassed if your toddler acted that way, forget about grown adults

If my toddler paid a subscription to a commercial entertainment channel on the basis of their enjoyment of a particular series, and then that series got wrapped up in a sloppy and rushed fashion because the makers of that series were tired of their product and were offered a sweet contact by Disney I would, first of all, be amazed that my toddler had a HBO account and parade the precocious genius for all he was worth. Then I would accept his irritation as being totally justified.

I don't personally fall into this particular category, given that I pirate more than Euron.

no.8 wrote: »

Didn't realise episode 6 is out. What ending do you speak of?

The leak of

Dany being killed by Jon for being evil, and Bran getting the throne.

. Expectations subverted!

The_Honeybadger · 16-05-2019 09:01PM

no.8 wrote: »

Disagree for the most part and many of those who sign those petitions aren't fans, rather, sheep who jump on the bandwagon to hound a person/programme/insert agenda.

How do you know who signed it or what their motive was

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 09:10PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

If my toddler paid a subscription to a commercial entertainment channel on the basis of their enjoyment of a particular series, and then that series got wrapped up in a sloppy and rushed fashion because the makers of that series were tired of their product and were offered a sweet contact by Disney I would, first of all, be amazed that my toddler had a HBO account and parade the precocious genius for all he was worth. Then I would accept his irritation as being totally justified.

I don't personally fall into this particular category, given that I pirate more than Euron.

That's what makes this whole thing even funnier, a decent proportion of the people signing the petition probably don't even pay for the show.

So more like a toddler throwing a tantrum because the toy they stole didn't live up to their expectations :pac:

Grayditch · 16-05-2019 09:20PM

Internet petitions are pretty cringey. I dont like this season but I've to accept it. Wont stop me being disappointed or complaining to an extend but online petitions? Hmmm.

TerrorFirmer · 16-05-2019 09:31PM

Make it again petitions are completely ridiculous but I suppose to some people it's just another way of voicing dissatisfaction.

I don't see the point considering critical reviews and user reviews are already considerably down this season anyway (well, in fairness, just specifically E04 and E05 so far). It's not as if the issues aren't being recognised and acknowledged on a widespread scale. What's the petition supposed to add to that.

No other season has a fraction of this much controversy or this mixed/weak a response (including silly petitions). It's unique to S8, it just is what it is, and this is the best we're getting.

nix · 16-05-2019 09:45PM

D&D could sign it themselves and it still wouldnt get remade :pac:

But it wouldnt surprise me, 10-20 years from now, they could reboot the series, especially if George actually finishes the books, they also have a load of story lines they left out they could include to make it fresh.

What is dead may never die!

Tazzimus · 16-05-2019 09:47PM

nix wrote: »

D&D could sign it themselves and it still wouldnt get remade :pac:

But it wouldnt surprise me, 10-20 years from now, they could reboot the series, especially if George actually finishes the books, they also have a load of story lines they left out they could include to make it fresh.

What is dead may never die!

Finish the books in 10-20 years, that's a bit of a stretch :pac:

TerrorFirmer · 16-05-2019 09:50PM

I want to read the books now, but I refuse to start until a) the last one is finished or b) GRRM dies of old age and we get confirmation that a ghost writer will at least take over.

J Mysterio · 16-05-2019 11:14PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Wow that petition is shooting up

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

Entitled nonsense. This is it, like it or lump it.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 11:31PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Entitled nonsense. This is it, like it or lump it.

I'm not a great one for internet petitions... but I think there's a growing trend of fans (or prospective customers) having more power in relation to franchises. I mean in the last year we've seen a multi-billion dollar industry (Star Wars) shaken to its core due to fans of the series being pissed off with what was being produced using that IP. EA and Activision have had their stocks slump due to a cavalier attitude to their audiences. Were Bethesda a public company the same would probably be true for them. Sure even last week Paramount had to announce a major redesign of their Sonic the Hedgehog movie due to reaction to their trailer. The days of purveyors of entertainment having no say on the way in the way that entertainment is made may be over.

I mean, it doesn't matter either way to Benioff and Weiss. They'll get people talking and looking at this series, and that's all that they need to do. However, backlash could have serious monetary repercussions for HBO's plans for spinoffs. For certain this series isn't going to get remade, and I hope that the spinoffs still get to see the light of day, though I'm a little bit skeptical whether they'll be worth seeing.

As for Song of Ice and Fire we can still hope that GRR will finish them at some point. That's the only dim chance that this series will get a satisfactory send off for most of us.

~Rebel~ · 16-05-2019 11:32PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I think a re-watch knowing what happened will catch a lot more things. When I re-watched before this season I was paying attention to Dany as after the Tarlys and pretty much holding Jon prisoner she was going to do anything for power.

The Tarly's are a great example of her change being unearned I think. It's an event from quite recently as far as the show goes, so a good indicator of where her head was at not long before this big turn.

She's there as a general and victor, after a particularly bloody battle, and then offers them clemency if they just swear fealty to her. Even Tarly Senior begs his son to do this, and live, but Dickon actively chooses to die instead, taking the decision out of Dany's hands entirely.

This would have been a great opportunity for the writers to increase her malevolence by burning him even after he had asked for mercy, but instead she gave him every chance to live if he wanted to.

The switch from this mindset, to slaughtering innocents on a massive scale is just too big. It's an absolute atrocity and war crime, and someone capable of reasonable thought (like she clearly was in many instances in seasons 7 and 8 prior to this) would simply never do it.

As I mentioned before, what she did is akin to going into a primary school and just wandering around shooting every child there. And not even as a sudden lash out, but doing it for 40 or so minutes of screen time (which obviously means much longer in in-world time). That's a level of pure insanity and madness and cruelty and pure unconscionable murder above and beyond anything ever hinted at before.

And in terms of "she lost a lot", how much does any one of us need to lose before we contemplate murdering a whole bunch of innocent, unrelated people? I'd argue this simply isn't even a place one's head goes. Revenge, certainly, but going out and horribly murdering a bunch of randoms is not a thing connected with experiencing great loss. It's just not a viable motivator.

We needed to see cruelty towards innocents on a small scale prior to this. Instead, what we saw directly prior to this was her attempting a cease-fire, and going off to battle for humanity.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 11:32PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I want to read the books now, but I refuse to start until a) the last one is finished or b) GRRM dies of old age and we get confirmation that a ghost writer will at least take over.

There’s a fella called Patrick Rothfuss. You’d like him.
He has a trilogy of some of the best fantasy and brilliant writing you’ll ever read. Called the king killer chronicles

The final part is coming any day now.
Any ... day ... now ...
For the past 20 years

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 11:39PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

I'm not a great one for internet petitions... but I think there's a growing trend of fans (or prospective customers) having more power in relation to franchises. I mean in the last year we've seen a multi-billion dollar industry (Star Wars) shaken to its core due to fans of the series being pissed off with what was being produced using that IP.

Star Wars is fine. Last Jedi made 1.4 billion and despite being critically lauded yet hounded by a tiny but persistent vocal twitter crowd, is still here.
Rise of Skywalker trailer had more views on YouTube in 24 hours than force awakens and last Jedi, combined.

Toxicity and complain culture has just become the zeitgeist.
Hence endless formerly notable and respected outlets suddenly taking up that narrative.

Anything for clicks. Clicks mean revenue.

~Rebel~ · 16-05-2019 11:43PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Star Wars is fine. Last Jedi made 1.4 billion and despite being critically lauded yet hounded by a tiny but persistent vocal twitter crowd, is still here.
Rise of Skywalker trailer had more views on YouTube in 24 hours than force awakens and last Jedi, combined.

Toxicity and complain culture has just become the zeitgeist.
Hence endless formerly notable and respected outlets suddenly taking up that narrative.

Anything for clicks. Clicks mean revenue.

Yeah, I think the Star Wars backlash is really only a concern for the main story throughline, which is gonna be done soon.

Once directors and writers have the freedom to go off in other directions, and explore other stories and characters and tones within the broader world, it'll get a lot more interesting, and people will be a lot less upset about things they don't like, as it won't relate directly to stories and characters they're intimately emotionally connected to.

JulesInKy · 17-05-2019 12:00AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

There’s a fella called Patrick Rothfuss. You’d like him.
He has a trilogy of some of the best fantasy and brilliant writing you’ll ever read. Called the king killer chronicles

The final part is coming any day now.
Any ... day ... now ...
For the past 20 years

I got so excited to read this post, til I got to the last part. Waiting and waiting for Kingkiller book 3, I'm holding off re-reading The Name of the Wind (2007) and The Wise Man’s Fear (2011) until it's out.

Also I'm loving this season of GoT! I'm not going to ruin it for myself by picking at it like a crusty old scab.

Maybe when I sit down to binge watch the whole thing again over the long Irish winter I might have a different take on it, but for now I'm letting myself relax and enjoy.

Stop moaning ffs · 17-05-2019 01:02AM

JulesInKy wrote: »

I got so excited to read this post, til I got to the last part. Waiting and waiting for Kingkiller book 3, I'm holding off re-reading The Name of the Wind (2007) and The Wise Man’s Fear (2011) until it's out.

Also I'm loving this season of GoT! I'm not going to ruin it for myself by picking at it like a crusty old scab. Maybe when I sit down to binge watch the whole thing again over the long Irish winter I might have a different take on it, but for now I'm letting myself relax and enjoy.

I’m sorry for leading you up that path. In a way I didn’t. Patrick did.

Such a talent and a gift. It’s crushibg for us and him too he can’t land it

Robin hobb Farseer books are even better and have an ending by the way

J. Marston · 17-05-2019 02:36AM

Saw a decent post on Reddit highlighting just how Hollywood some of the writing has become...

In the battle of the Blackwater Davos is on a ship in blackwater bay when it explodes sending him flying into the bay. Does he wash up ashore just in time to help Stannis take the city? No, he washes up on some tiny spit of rock and nearly dies there of thirst, hunger, and being exposed to the elements. Even his rescue is a gamble because he has to hope the people who found him are also fighting for Stannis or else he’d either be left there to die or taken prisoner.

Euron is also on a ship in blackwater bay that explodes sending him flying into the bay. About 5 minutes after his ship explodes he washes up safe and sound back on shore. And not only just on shore but right in front of the secret entrance to the red keep. And it just so happens that he washes up there at the exact moment that Jaime is also using that secret entrance. What does he do after being blown up and swimming a mile to shore? He decides to fight Jaime to the death for absolutely no reason at all.

17-05-2019 06:43AM

Yeah, why did they even fight? They're on the same side.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 07:02AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Star Wars is fine. Last Jedi made 1.4 billion and despite being critically lauded yet hounded by a tiny but persistent vocal twitter crowd, is still here.
Rise of Skywalker trailer had more views on YouTube in 24 hours than force awakens and last Jedi, combined.

Toxicity and complain culture has just become the zeitgeist.
Hence endless formerly notable and respected outlets suddenly taking up that narrative.

Anything for clicks. Clicks mean revenue.

I think what he was talking about was the Star Wars Battlefront contoversy, which gathered huge pace online and led to significant drops in EA stocks, not The Last Jedi.

And it's not very fair to dismiss valid and widespread criticism as click bait, complain culture or toxicity.

It reminds me of some of the actresses in Ghostbusters labelling criticism of the movie as 'sexism' and 'racism' rather than accept that the film was just plain bad.

People will naturally complain when they have issues with something. I mean, there was no general backlash against GOT S1-7, so why did fans and critics suddenly start with S8?

The Tarly's are a great example of her change being unearned I think. It's an event from quite recently as far as the show goes, so a good indicator of where her head was at not long before this big turn.

She's there as a general and victor, after a particularly bloody battle, and then offers them clemency if they just swear fealty to her. Even Tarly Senior begs his son to do this, and live, but Dickon actively chooses to die instead, taking the decision out of Dany's hands entirely.

This would have been a great opportunity for the writers to increase her malevolence by burning him even after he had asked for mercy, but instead she gave him every chance to live if he wanted to.

Very much agree. It's like....imagine three Lannister soldiers murder your family and leave your for dead.

You recover, and go out into the world and target and kill three random Lannister soldiers.

These particular soldiers could be entirely innocent, and three fine, moralistic men even; but there's a defined logic and reasoning to the action, cruel as it might be.

However, if you go out and just randomly target three innocent people, that's entirely devoid of logic and just senseless, random violence.

Daenerys was always willing to do the former (crucifixtion of the masters as a generalised class she holds accountable, with no regard for individual innocence, is literally a perfect example of this), never did she express a willingness or tendency to do the latter.

leggo · 17-05-2019 07:40AM

It’s almost as if her character...developed? :pac:

Danaerys has always done her ‘best’ work when doing what she wants regardless of counsel. She stepped into the funeral pyre against Jorah’s wishes and emerged with three dragons, she didn’t escape with Jorah and Daario in Vaes Dothrak and instead elected to stay and burn the khals and got her army greatly increased as a result. The way she’s going to see it: when she goes with her instinct and ignores her counsel, she does well.

She gets to the point of winning the war, is staring down the Red Keep and hears the bells. Tyrion had begged her to stop the attack once she did, but every time she’s gone against her gut and listened to Tyrion, it’s hurt her. She’s thinking about all the different things people have said to her in the past like “You’re a dragon, be a dragon” (we saw this in the ‘Previously On’), and she goes with her gut. The difference here is that her gut is being influenced by grief, the loss of two of her children and all of her OG advisors outside of the similarly grieving Greyworm. So she’s not making a rationed, reasonable decision.

And, whether we like it or not, politically it probably was a smarter move. It’s the same move, we know from Westerosi history, that the likes of Tywin and Robb have made. We just didn’t see that. If she’d have played the Game Of Thrones and tried to win the conventional way by appeasing the house lords, she could end up dead at a wedding. Now she has fear. Nobody is going to want to step up to her. She couldn’t have love, which is what she wanted, she likely knows that Varys has already told the realm that she’s not the true heir, so to get back what she sees as rightfully hers, this will have to do.

I mean I got all this as I watched. It’s all been there for us the whole time, they weren’t subtle about it and made sure this stuff was all in our head building to the climax. Same goes for Arya’s and Jaime’s decisions too. I’m genuinely baffled, if the outrage isn’t just fake Twitter outrage for the sake of it, how people are confused by this. Maybe it’s just moving so fast that people aren’t registering it in the moment, but they’re not leaving stuff out, you just have to think about it. But we had to do the same with the Red Wedding.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-05-2019 08:40AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, why did they even fight? They're on the same side.

Euron also just lost that fight because he didn't use his signature finger in the bum move.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 08:47AM

In fairness you only 'got it' because you agree with it. Personally, for example, I 'got' what they were going for entirely, just don't agree with how they arrived there, or that the scripting supported it credibly, whether we hark back to 'foreshadowing' in earlier seasons, or direct development in S8.

However I think in fairness at this point we should all agree to disagree and move on from this as it's clogging up the thread, and yes I'm aware I'm as guilty of that as anyone. A few more episodes of development would've probably left most people happy.

Let's move onto your second point, in which we look at whether or not it was a smart or logical power-play in the longer term. I genuinely can't see how it is, though I do entirely understand that she now knows that the wider world of Westeros knows she is not the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, very likely will not be overly receptive to her as same, and that presents her with a major problem.

However, I think the 'fear' has already been established by her total one-sided destruction of the Golden Company, Iron Fleet, defences of Kings Landing and a good portion of the Lannister forces to boot. Westeros has never seen such one-sided military conquest.

At this point, she's already got that fear, but also the support of Jon Snow - who has no interest in the throne - and by association, most of the north, however uneasy. She's also never actually attempted to win over the people of either Kings Landing, or wider Westoros, or convince them of her right, or ability, to rule fairly, before putting them all 'to the sword'.

The northerners viewed her with suspicion and coldness, sure, but that's entirely logical; she sailed across the seas with dragons and hordes of foreign armies in the Dothraki and Unsullied; the north has always been an insular and self-determining place at the best of times.

By doing what she did, all she has is brutal fear....fear that hinges on a single dragon, without which, she has nothing. She's now the worst despot in the history of Westeros. She's tenfold worse than Cersei Lannister ever was, and fulfilled the most heinous crimes her father met his end attempting to carry out.

She's Gangster No. 1.

At least, a dragon is all she should have. Another major problem is that writers are constantly replenishing her stocks of Unsullied and Dothraki for pure narrative convenience when at this point, she should have skeletal remains of both at best. That part is really not credible.

Anyway, we'll just have to wait for the final episode to see how it's all framed and how the reactions, rationale and consequences will play out.

Brock Turnpike · 17-05-2019 08:52AM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

There were a couple of deleted scenes between the Hound and Arya

Arya: "You heading to King's Landing?"
Sandor: "Got some unfinished business"
Arya: "Me too"
Sandor: "I don't plan on coming back"
Arya: "Neither do I"
Sandor: "You going to leave me to die again if I get hurt?"
Arya: "Probably"

*One week later*

Arya: "That is some good rabbit stew"
Sandor: "You still determined to finish your unfinished business?"
Arya: "Yup"
Sandor: "Me too"

*One week later*

Sandor: " You know it's 1700 miles from Winterfell to King's Landing."
Arya: "I know. I've been there before."
Sandor: "Really determined to finish your unfinished business, huh?"
Arya: "Yup"
Sandor: "Not tempted to go with the rest of Daeneys' forces by ship? That would be faster."
Arya: "I don't think they want me to kill the Queen. Cersei I mean. If they did, they'd have asked me too. Better off doing my own thing."

*Two weeks later*
Sandor: "So there's King's Landing"
Arya: "Yup"
Sandor: "We're lucky. They haven't attacked it yet, but they look like they are getting ready to."
Arya: "We better get a move on."
Sandor: "You know, when they start attacking it will be really difficult to leave."
Arya: "I wasn't born yesterday you know".

*Several hours later*

Sandor: "Go home girl."
Arya: "Okay"

Wow. You actually took time to write this all out??

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-05-2019 08:59AM

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Wow. You actually took time to write this all out??

Sure the first paragraph is a copy paste from the script. The scenes with Arya and the hound in that episode did not make any sense whatsoever, and were just there for fan service I guess. It's all the usual problems with D&D writing... such as only being comfortable with writing scenes for a pair of well liked characters traveling by themselves, having the chacters use teleporters to get to the plot when they need to, having no passage of time due to the use of teleporters (so obvious conversations don't happen until the characters are literally on the doorstep of where they are going), and then this fake drama of Arya being stuck in the centre of King's Landing (because, according to D&D we wouldn't care about the destruction unless a popular character appeared to be in peril).

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Anything for clicks. Clicks mean revenue.

Solo a Star Wars movie wasn't what anybody would associate with a financial success. In response to the prevailing mood, generated by the majority view that the last Jedi and Solo were bad movies, Lucasfilms last June shelved all other spinoff films. That's a billion dollar industry. They may of course revisit them if the Rise of (the?) Skywalker(s)? does well.

I mean this is the entertainment business, people can vote with their feet. Controvercy is only fine for a little while.

The Game of Thrones finale won't find it difficult to break box office records for HBO, but that doesn't mean that the planned spinoff series aren't in threat.

Brock Turnpike · 17-05-2019 09:19AM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Wow. You actually took time to write this all out??

Sure the first paragraph is a copy paste from the script.

And the rest is a load of stuff you made up and typed out trying to be funny. At least it sounded funny in your head, and you got a dig in at the writers. That'll show 'em.

leggo · 17-05-2019 09:37AM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Let's move onto your second point, in which we look at whether or not it was a smart or logical power-play in the longer term. I genuinely can't see how it is, though I do entirely understand that she now knows that the wider world of Westeros knows she is not the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, very likely will not be overly receptive to her as same, and that presents her with a major problem.

However, I think the 'fear' has already been established by her total one-sided destruction of the Golden Company, Iron Fleet, defences of Kings Landing and a good portion of the Lannister forces to boot. Westeros has never seen such one-sided military conquest.

At this point, she's already got that fear, but also the support of Jon Snow - who has no interest in the throne - and by association, most of the north, however uneasy. She's also never actually attempted to win over the people of either Kings Landing, or wider Westoros, or convince them of her right, or ability, to rule fairly, before putting them all 'to the sword'.

The northerners viewed her with suspicion and coldness, sure, but that's entirely logical; she sailed across the seas with dragons and hordes of foreign armies in the Dothraki and Unsullied; the north has always been an insular and self-determining place at the best of times.

By doing what she did, all she has is brutal fear....fear that hinges on a single dragon, without which, she has nothing. She's now the worst despot in the history of Westeros. She's tenfold worse than Cersei Lannister ever was, and fulfilled the most heinous crimes her father met his end attempting to carry out.

She's Gangster No. 1.

At least, a dragon is all she should have. Another major problem is that writers are constantly replenishing her stocks of Unsullied and Dothraki for pure narrative convenience when at this point, she should have skeletal remains of both at best. That part is really not credible.

Anyway, we'll just have to wait for the final episode to see how it's all framed and how the reactions, rationale and consequences will play out.

I actually don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. All things considered, it may be a decision that proves to be her undoing. She’s likely made two very dangerous enemies in Jon and Arya, for example, with her actions. But that’s the point of the story: if characters always made the best decisions, we’d never have a story. For example, Cersei and Tywin didn’t need to stick the knife into Tyrion by using Shae at his trial. It was unnecessarily vindictive by Cersei and Tywin was getting exactly what he wanted in Jaime agreeing to take Casterly Rock. But they made that bad call and it resulted in Tywin losing his life and Cersei losing one of her children.

So what it comes down to is: can you accept that, in that moment, when the bells rang Dany thought “Should I do what Tyrion has asked me to or go with my gut that this is the right call?” I can totally accept that she wouldn’t cede to Tyrion and go with her gut giving how she foresaw the situation from her vantage. And that is probably going to be a bad call, yes. But it is a logical one that makes sense to the character, in the same way Cersei and Tywin could see no harm in using Shae to stick the knife in from their vantage point at the time.

Penn · 17-05-2019 09:41AM

leggo wrote: »

So what it comes down to is: can you accept that, in that moment, when the bells rang Dany thought “Should I do what Tyrion has asked me to or go with my gut that this is the right call?” I can totally accept that she wouldn’t cede to Tyrion and go with her gut giving how she foresaw the situation from her vantage. And that is probably going to be a bad call, yes. But it is a logical one that makes sense to the character, in the same way Cersei and Tywin could see no harm in using Shae to stick the knife in from their vantage point at the time.

I don't even think it registered as a decision or a gut call for Dany. It was purely based on emotion in the heat of the moment. There was no logic or real thought process put into it at all, it was her anger and even to an extent her fear that unless she became the Dragon Queen and made everyone fear her that she might never get the throne even though she beat Cersei.

I'm sure she'll try to justify it, but you could see on her face it wasn't planned or thought out; it was pure rage.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-05-2019 09:53AM

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

And the rest is a load of stuff you made up and typed out trying to be funny. At least it sounded funny in your head, and you got a dig in at the writers. That'll show 'em.

Okay, you liked the episode. You don't have to wear it like a flag. Most people think the writing was garbage. I was trying to highlight how a single relatively unimportant subplot of that episode featuring Arya and the Hound was completely pointless, like most of the series has proven to be.

Arya was placed in that location just so that we could be concerned about a character groaning under their plot armour being potentially killed by Danerys during the genocide, which she started, because of a bell. The Hound was there because he wanted to get the title belt from the Cleganebowl reigning champion. You liked all that, that's fine. It's a free country.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 10:50AM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Most people think the writing was garbage.

Mob mentality - doesn't equate to being correct. Not sure the writing is the problem - I think it's the producers - they should have seen that they were trying to cram way too much into the final season with only 6 episodes - also it was paced very badly across the episodes - I'm sure there are more people involved than just the writers that caused this to happen. The only longish running series that I've ever seen that had a decent effort last season is The Wire.
Sopranos went downhill after season 3. Breaking Bad had a garbage final season. The list goes on and on. This is where the idea of nicely packaged box set tv is failing us. There will be a return to Film I think - a clean beginning middle and end - envisaged from the start of production without sequels.

leggo · 17-05-2019 11:18AM

Penn wrote: »

I don't even think it registered as a decision or a gut call for Dany. It was purely based on emotion in the heat of the moment. There was no logic or real thought process put into it at all, it was her anger and even to an extent her fear that unless she became the Dragon Queen and made everyone fear her that she might never get the throne even though she beat Cersei.

I'm sure she'll try to justify it, but you could see on her face it wasn't planned or thought out; it was pure rage.

Then why did they have ‘The Bells’ plotline at all? It’s the name of the episode like. We’re supposed to wonder if she’ll listen to Tyrion when the bells ring.

Re: Arya (not directed at the poster I quoted). It made sense for her to be in KL. She takes Cersei, The Hound takes The Mountain, the entire battle doesn’t need to happen if they’re successful in time (they said this to the Stark soldier as they reached the camp). It’s a solid plan given the pair will be a package deal. It also made sense for her to turn back when she did too because it was clear the war was won and Cersei was a goner sooner rather than later, the Red Keep had just started falling. The plot was based around whether she’d carry on and be ‘No One’, which would end up in her becoming like The Hound, solely driven by vengeance, or whether she’d say “I’m Arya Stark and I’m going home.” This entire story is about choosing who you are: ice or fire, Stark or Targaryen, Kingslayer or Honourable Knight, Breaker of Chains or Queen of Ashes. Arya’s entire arc has been about deciding if she’s Arya or No One. Every time she’s been faced with that choice (House of B&W and when she met Hot Pie and learned Jon had survived), she decided to be Arya. So it was here.

It’s not garbage writing if people didn’t pick up on it because it wasn’t spelled out. But all of these points are in the episode. Yes it’s happening very quickly now, but I’m fine with them not having hammy expositional dialogue spelling out each key decision. That would be garbage writing.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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