"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 05:04PM

nix wrote: »

Not this again :rolleyes:

As many have said before, nobody has a problem with the end result, they just have a problem with how sudden the jump was from the Dany we know to the mad queen we dont, it was a massive character change in the space of 3 episodes, and it was obviously RUSHED.

And that's where the disagreement sits.

Many people don't see it as a sudden jump, it has been something that was building for 8 seasons rather than the 3 episodes you believe it happened.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 05:16PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I hate to over-use the phrase but I have to because you seem to honestly have troubling diffrentating between willingness to accept collateral damage and propensity for violence for its own sake.

She didn't crucify 163 random people, she deliberately chose the class responsible for slave trading; obviously a few were innocent, but that's acceptable collateral damage to Daenerys.

All wars in history have this to varying degrees; some leaders try and limit collateral damage, others don't really give a damn as long as it all leads towards victory.

This is how she has always been - hot headed and willing to use 'fire and blood' to achieve her aims, but even her most extreme examples of suggested force are not devoid of logic and entirely have purpose and a considered balance of right to wrong.

I’m sure that was the same thinking British leadership and soldiers had indiscriminately shooting at Republican crowds, that they are the same class as the people who they saw as ‘enemies’ and there was likely 'guilty' people among them.

Why are people still trying to excuse this from Dany? This wasn’t even a snap decision use of a gun (or dragon), collateral damage is not taking the time to crucify 163 people and watch them slowly die, while her advisors told her not to do it.

maximoose · 16-05-2019 05:16PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Many people don't see it as a sudden jump, it has been something that was building for 8 seasons rather than the 3 episodes you believe it happened.

Sorry I know nobody likes a video dump, and it's 18 mins - but if you have the time it sums up things nicely for me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlNyqhnc1M

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 05:16PM

nix wrote: »

Not this again :rolleyes:

As many have said before, nobody has a problem with the end result, they just have a problem with how sudden the jump was from the Dany we know to the mad queen we dont, it was a massive character change in the space of 3 episodes, and it was obviously RUSHED.

And once again tryin to change lanes of the narrative of the thread.
Read back on the posts. Everyone complaining about her ‘sudden’ turn now saying yeah we know it was always there but but but

Yourself among them.

It works either way. She had a natural and numerous series of events that lead her to this moment.
And can you honestly say real world full mental postal breakdown moments don’t happen? To anyone ever?

This is people complaining just to complain. As usual.

You go through the previous posts by those posting on these threads complaining and you immediately see the same pattern. Thread tourists whose only job is to whinge moan and complain.
All up for thoughtful debate but it has rarely happened in these threads.
If ever.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 05:20PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

You either need better glasses, or need them to begin with..

I'm talking about sitting there on Drogon, battle won, enemies surrendered, throne hers, and then she decides **** it, I'll burn them anyway, citizens and all. That was sudden.

You also fail to notice I repeatedly said I've no issue with the turn, a lot of people don't in fact, but that doesn't suit your moany, condescending posts so you ignore it.

You’re the one complaining. I’m just pointing out the irrationality and hypocrisy of your posts. You have totally changed gears once it was plugged out to you this was always going to happen for her.
Not that it needs highlighting.

Nalz · 16-05-2019 05:24PM

Great video maximoose

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 05:30PM

Posting rotten tomatoes scores or YouTube videos, to make your point for you or ineptly trying to reinforce the point that you’re actually unable to make yourself, is exactly what is wrong right now and why you’re best ignored.

If you’re that lazy, and that intellectually incompetent, nobody will or should take you seriously.

TerrorFirmer · 16-05-2019 05:46PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Posting rotten tomatoes scores or YouTube videos, to make your point for you or ineptly trying to reinforce the point that you’re actually unable to make yourself, is exactly what is wrong right now and why you’re best ignored.

If you’re that lazy, and that intellectually incompetent, nobody will or should take you seriously.

In fairness, you are still claiming that people wanted a Disney ending for Daenerys, despite the fact that a) I'm not sure even one person articulated that opinion in this thread and b) people have posted opinion, in rich detail, of why their problem is exclusively with how the turn is handled, rather than the turn itself.

Yet that keeps getting ignored. The complaints are consistent on virtually every platform going. Poor writing.

The reason episode 5 is the lowest rated in the entire franchise isn't because people wanted a magical fairy tale ending.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 05:50PM

maximoose wrote: »

Sorry I know nobody likes a video dump, and it's 18 mins - but if you have the time it sums up things nicely for me...

I agree with some of that video, but bits of it make no sense, specifically his complaints that it is poor writing that Dany is the only character being put in a lose - lose situation. If that is such poor writing then it is there throughout the show, even in the examples he cites as good writing.

Ned - if he told Robert and he limited the risk of Cersei doing anything to hurt him or his family but as a 'good man' he would have to live with her death and the deaths of her childern on his conscience.
Rob - if he kept his vow to the Frey's he wasn't risking their wrath but he was forgoing love.
Catelyn - if she doesn't release Jamie her daughters could be killed.

If anything the whole show is about selecting the least worst option and you'll still likely end up dead.

nix · 16-05-2019 05:55PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

And once again tryin to change lanes of the narrative of the thread.
Read back on the posts. Everyone complaining about her ‘sudden’ turn now saying yeah we know it was always there but but but

Yourself among them.

Really?

Heres a post i made 30mins after the episode aired:

nix wrote: »

Again im not against this transition she made, i just think they should have done a more fluid progression to her getting like that.. Pretty sure her Father took a lot longer than a finger snap before he started with his bonfire parties :pac:

I've been saying that from the get go, So shut up waffling and start showing specific evidence to support your claims that she has been slowly losing it from the beginning.

And lets not keep using the slavers crucifixion, it was an act of punishment, in Westeros you are sentenced to death for simply selling slaves, nevermind crucifying them :rolleyes:

Srsly, start throwing up clips of Dany wanting to do evil **** before being advised otherwise, prior to season 7.

eagle eye wrote: »

So losing your child and best friend couldn't lead to a person losing the plot?

Losing the plot sure, committing genocide on thousands innocent civilians/children, defo no..

Drumpot · 16-05-2019 06:06PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I agree with some of that video, but bits of it make no sense, specifically his complaints that it is poor writing that Dany is the only character being put in a lose - lose situation. If that is such poor writing then it is there throughout the show, even in the examples he cites as good writing.
Ned - if he told Robert and he limited the risk of Cersei doing anything to hurt him or his family but as a 'good man' he would have to live with her death and the deaths of her childern on his conscience.

Rob - if he kept his vow to the Frey's he wasn't risking their wrath but he was forgoing love.

Catelyn - if she doesn't release Jamie her daughters could be killed.

If anything the whole show is about selecting the least worst option and you'll still likely end up dead.

That YouTube lad liked Theon and Ned’s story arcs but not Danys, there is nothing complicated about his explanation. How does that equate to bad writing? It’s ok to just not like the direction the show has taken characters, why do people feel they have to validate with subjective waffle?

Whatever about people not liking certain dialogue/interactions , the rest of the stuff is mostly personal preferences. Objectively speaking people snap under far less stress then the stuff Dany has been subjected to over the last few weeks. Thinking “it’s too sudden” is a subjective reaction as opposed to objective analysis. It really is a “it’s not my luke” scenario where people can’t handle drastic character shifts that happen in real life in stressful times and after traumatic events.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 06:26PM

nix wrote: »

I've been saying that from the get go, So shut up waffling and start showing specific evidence to support your claims that she has been slowly losing it from the beginning.

And lets not keep using the slavers crucifixion, it was an act of punishment, in Westeros you are sentenced to death for simply selling slaves, nevermind crucifying them :rolleyes:

Srsly, start throwing up clips of Dany wanting to do evil **** before being advised otherwise, prior to season 7.

Losing the plot sure, committing genocide on thousands innocent civilians/children, defo no..

You are aware that crucifying leads to death, just in a much crueler way. It is a known law in Westeros, whereas it was allowed in Slavers Bay and from the mouths of the slaves not all of the masters mistreated them.

It isn't that she was 'losing it' from the beginning, she showed a short temper, vengefulness, and a horrible cruelness towards people who weren't supporting her from the beginning.

Watch maximoose's youtube link if you want to see video examples.

nix · 16-05-2019 06:35PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

You are aware that crucifying leads to death, just in a much crueler way. It is a known law in Westeros, whereas it was allowed in Slavers Bay and from the mouths of the slaves not all of the masters mistreated them.

Right but they didnt stop it either, and they didnt surrender when given the chance. And of course it leads to death, christ.. my point was if you can be sentenced to death for merely selling slaves.. Its not a big jump for someone to crucify actual slavers that have or supported or turned a blind eye to the crucifixion of children among countless other mistreatment of humans... for their entire lives..

And yeah chipping away at Max's video now.. But id still like posters here to highlight specific scenes so i dont have to watch a 20min video.. Like your opposition have :P

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 06:48PM

nix wrote: »

Right but they didnt stop it either, and they didnt surrender when given the chance.

And of course it leads to death, christ.. my point was if you can be sentenced to death for merely selling slaves.. Its not a big jump for someone to crucify actual slavers that have or supported or turned a blind eye to the crucifixion of children among countless other mistreatment of humans... for their entire lives..

A slow clean death and a slow excruciating death to me is huge jump.

Again, you're making excuses for her actions because in your brain slavery=bad, so you justify whatever she does to them. It's that exact mindset that allowed most of the real world's atrocities to happen, including slavery, and it is how the writers messed with your sense of right and wrong.

And yeah chipping away at Max's video now.. But id still like posters here to highlight specific scenes so i dont have to watch a 20min video.. Like your opposition have :P

I've highlighted specific scenes for the couple of days here.

6:20 - 8:30 on max's video captures a lot of them.

16-05-2019 06:51PM

That YouTube analysis is interesting but I don't agree with it. I don't think there is any point in comparing Daenerys experiences with the violence Arya or Theon carried out. They are different people with different motivations. Daenerys is not just evil. She is one of the more complex characters in the series who has a lot of positive traits sitting alongside the negative,
just like us all.

Incinerating Kings Landing doesn't mean the good in her is now gone. This is a really bad example but if I'm having a crap day and am snappy with others then I'm not suddenly a horrible person without the ability to be kind.

In The Godfather Michael Corleone was seen as a "civilian" in the Mafia world because he had no involvement in crime. Yet he was well able to make a decision to murder the men who attempted to do the same to his father. It seemed out of nowhere but it wasn't. This was a man who had the capacity for violence and to take lives. Just like Daenerys.

Drumpot · 16-05-2019 07:05PM

nix wrote: »

And yeah chipping away at Max's video now.. But id still like posters here to highlight specific scenes so i dont have to watch a 20min video.. Like your opposition have :P

Whatever about other elements of the show, In this specific topic on Dany, a sudden drastic character shift can be rationally explained. Quoting other scenes/stories from the show or suggesting other ways they could of handled it doesn’t change this point.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 07:10PM

Wow that petition is shooting up

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 07:35PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

In fairness, you are still claiming that people wanted a Disney ending for Daenerys, despite the fact that a) I'm not sure even one person articulated that opinion in this thread and b) people have posted opinion, in rich detail, of why their problem is exclusively with how the turn is handled, rather than the turn itself.

Yet that keeps getting ignored. The complaints are consistent on virtually every platform going. Poor writing.

The reason episode 5 is the lowest rated in the entire franchise isn't because people wanted a magical fairy tale ending.

I never claimed people wanted a Disney ending. I asked how they’d feel about it and is that what we all want.
And if you’re version of ‘rich detail’ includes people hammering on the same points that have been explained over and over I can’t help you.

There’s 4 or 5 profiles literally repeating themselves and the same point.
Across mutipke threads almost verbatim, in the got forum.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 07:36PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Wow that petition is shooting up

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

These petitions to change movies/shows people didn't enjoy are some of the most embarrassing and self-entitled things I've seen on the internet.

The_Honeybadger · 16-05-2019 07:55PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

These petitions to change movies/shows people didn't enjoy are some of the most embarrassing and self-entitled things I've seen on the internet.

It’s a bit pointless alright but I don’t see the harm in it. The show has been a global phenomenon and I’m sure everyone associated with it has made a fortune and basked in its success. The quality has been slipping in recent seasons but the writers have really s**t the bed with this last series quite frankly and can’t expect to be above criticism. Fans dissatisfaction can be seen and heard everywhere as any semblance of plot or consistency is abandoned in favour of Marvel style action.

Twitter, Facebook and petitions like the above are part of the world we live in now unfortunately.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 08:05PM

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

It’s a bit pointless alright but I don’t see the harm in it. The show has been a global phenomenon and I’m sure everyone associated with it has made a fortune and basked in its success. The quality has been slipping in recent seasons but the writers have really s**t the bed with this last series quite frankly and can’t expect to be above criticism. Fans dissatisfaction can be seen and heard everywhere as any semblance of plot or consistency is abandoned in favour of Marvel style action.

Twitter, Facebook and petitions like the above are part of the world we live in now unfortunately.

Fine for people to complain on social media or message boards but it is an outrageous level of self-entitlement for people to create or sign a petition saying 'I didn't like it, make it again. I deserve to get what I want, screw the people who made it and anyone who enjoyed it...'.

What even makes it worse, these people haven't even seen nearly 20% of the season yet.

You'd be embarrassed if your toddler acted that way, forget about grown adults

The_Honeybadger · 16-05-2019 08:10PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fine for people to complain on social media or message boards but it is an outrageous level of self-entitlement for people to create or sign a petition saying 'I didn't like it, make it again. I deserve to get what I want, screw the people who made it and anyone who enjoyed it...'.

What even makes it worse, these people haven't even seen nearly 20% of the season yet.

You'd be embarrassed if your toddler acted that way, forget about grown adults

I honestly don’t think anybody expects it to be remade. They are just venting their frustration. It’s no worse than ranting on Twitter or even on here

Tazzimus · 16-05-2019 08:16PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You’re the one complaining. I’m just pointing out the irrationality and hypocrisy of your posts. You have totally changed gears once it was plugged out to you this was always going to happen for her.
Not that it needs highlighting.

Maybe I need to type this in bigger letters or something;
I have no issue with her becoming mad Dany, pretty much no one does. I never had an issue with it happening.
The issue is how sudden she switches after the battle was already won.
She stopped destroying the place and waited to see if they'd surrender. When they did, she suddenly decided to burn them all anyway.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 08:26PM

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I honestly don’t think anybody expects it to be remade. They are just venting their frustration. It’s no worse than ranting on Twitter or even on here

It's like a toddler having a tantrum in a store. They mightn't expect they'll get their way but it doesn't mean they're not embarrassing themselves to everyone watching them.

I'm also laughing at people on social media pointing to as some sort of justification of their point of view. It is currently probably around half of one percent of the people who watch the show, with no controls over whether the people signing have actually seen it or haven't signing it multiple times.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 08:34PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Maybe I need to type this in bigger letters or something;
I have no issue with her becoming mad Dany, pretty much no one does. I never had an issue with it happening.
The issue is how sudden she switches after the battle was already won.
She stopped destroying the place and waited to see if they'd surrender. When they did, she suddenly decided to burn them all anyway.

And people have repeatedly given justification as to why they believe it wasn't a sudden switch and has been explained during the episode, season, and Dany's arc since season 1 (not including the next episode we haven't seen, where usually in GoT they have always delved into the reasoning for twists).

The_Honeybadger · 16-05-2019 08:45PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

It's like a toddler having a tantrum in a store. They mightn't expect they'll get their way but it doesn't mean they're not embarrassing themselves to everyone watching them.

I'm also laughing at people on social media pointing to as some sort of justification of their point of view. It is currently probably around half of one percent of the people who watch the show, with no controls over whether the people signing have actually seen it or haven't signing it multiple times.

Everyone with a keyboard has a megaphone now. I’m enjoying this season as much as is wrong with it. After waiting two years it was never going to live up to people’s expectations but it really does feel like a let down overall. Battle scenes are awesome but that’s not what people fell in love with about the show, it was the characters, intrigue, excellent dialogue and the scheming and plotting across multiple episodes. Just feels like that’s missing now and it’s a completely different show.

I’ll probably rewatch the whole thing next Xmas when I’ve a few weeks off and lots of dark evenings to fill. Might be a better time to judge then.

Rayne Wooney · 16-05-2019 08:52PM

They did so well in previous seasons but they’ve really murdered the ending. I don’t recall a tv series where it was so apparent that the writers wanted it done with.

Drogon to be lord of the seven kingdoms by means of burning everyone alive.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 08:55PM

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Everyone with a keyboard has a megaphone now. I’m enjoying this season as much as is wrong with it. After waiting two years it was never going to live up to people’s expectations but it really does feel like a let down overall. Battle scenes are awesome but that’s not what people fell in love with about the show, it was the characters, intrigue, excellent dialogue and the scheming and plotting across multiple episodes. Just feels like that’s missing now and it’s a completely different show.

I’ll probably rewatch the whole thing next Xmas when I’ve a few weeks off and lots of dark evenings to fill. Might be a better time to judge then.

I think a re-watch knowing what happened will catch a lot more things. When I re-watched before this season I was paying attention to Dany as after the Tarlys and pretty much holding Jon prisoner she was going to do anything for power.

I've clearly been a defender of the aspects that I liked but there are a lot of other aspects over the last few seasons that I didn't or that I thought needed extra time. It was always going to be difficult to shrink down the world into a finale, GRRM is clearly having terrible problems getting there, in a way that kept a lot of the elements everyone loved. Having said that, even if they butchered the whole thing, it is what it is and I wouldn't have the entitlement to demand they fix it to my liking.

no.8 · 16-05-2019 08:55PM

The_Honeybadger wrote:

Itâ€™s a bit pointless alright but I donâ€™t see the harm in it. The show has been a global phenomenon and Iâ€™m sure everyone associated with it has made a fortune and basked in its success. The quality has been slipping in recent seasons but the writers have really s**t the bed with this last series quite frankly and canâ€™t expect to be above criticism. Fans dissatisfaction can be seen and heard everywhere as any semblance of plot or consistency is abandoned in favour of Marvel style action.

Disagree for the most part and many of those who sign those petitions aren't fans, rather, sheep who jump on the bandwagon to hound a person/programme/insert agenda.

no.8 · 16-05-2019 08:57PM

Rayne Wooney wrote:

They did so well in previous seasons but theyâ€™ve really murdered the ending. I donâ€™t recall a tv series where it was so apparent that the writers wanted it done with.

Didn't realise episode 6 is out. What ending do you speak of?

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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