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Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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    #92
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    one world order wrote: »
    Have you ever prayed to God asking for motivation to get regular exercise and cut out the junk food. For anxiety why don't you repeat this quote when you feel it "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". We all have weaknesses but by putting our trust in Jesus it can give us the motivation and inner peace to change our mindset. The most Christian of people sin as well and have personal struggles. Life itself is a journey and struggle for everyone. Moving away from sin is a constant battle. Jesus came into this world to help us, it is why we should call out to him when going through life's struggles.

    The unsquarable circle fails to be squared again


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    #93
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    troyzer wrote: »
    Why would I pray to him? I don't believe in God.

    God making my own mental health conditional on subjugation is petty. Especially when I know some really horrible people who have no such issues.

    Life is only a struggle because God makes it a struggle. Jesus only came to help us because he (as God) made us require help.

    It's like the white Europeans "civilising" the savage.

    You blame God for your personal struggles but then you say you don't believe in God. The increasing levels of anxiety, depression and suicide throughout the western world is to a large extent of people moving away from God. Because people don't have God to fall back on when bad things happen or have feelings of worthlessness, the result can be very negative. We are meant to have a relationship with God and putting our trust in what Jesus did for us. Only you can choose to reject the faith or grow stronger in it.


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    #94
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    one world order wrote: »
    You blame God for your personal struggles but then you say you don't believe in God. The increasing levels of anxiety, depression and suicide throughout the western world is to a large extent of people moving away from God. Because people don't have God to fall back on when bad things happen or have feelings of worthlessness, the result can be very negative. We are meant to have a relationship with God and putting our trust in what Jesus did for us. Only you can choose to reject the faith or grow stronger in it.

    I don't blame God. I'm saying that if God is real, it's his fault.

    Is there any evidence at all that secularism is responsible for a supposed increase in mental health issues? You'd first have to show that there is an increase.

    You're still ignoring the point that if God is all powerful, then he's all responsible. Your God is an arsehole.


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    #95
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    one world order wrote: »
    The increasing levels of anxiety, depression and suicide throughout the western world is to a large extent of people moving away from God.

    I'm curious to see the studies/evidence etc that have led you to this conclusion.


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    #96
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    uptherebels wrote: »
    I'm curious to see the studies/evidence etc that have led you to this conclusion.

    Suicides have been on an upward projectory in Ireland since the late 1980s. In the US the suicide rate increased by 24% since 1999. Similar patterns occur across other western countries. At the same time people's faith in God has been decreasing. School children are more anxious in today's modern world than ever before. While society has made technological advances, the constant attack on religion through the mainstream media has led people to turn away from God and live less full filled lives.


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    #97
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    one world order wrote: »
    Suicides have been on an upward projectory in Ireland since the late 1980s. In the US the suicide rate increased by 24% since 1999. Similar patterns occur across other western countries. At the same time people's faith in God has been decreasing. School children are more anxious in today's modern world than ever before. While society has made technological advances, the constant attack on religion through the mainstream media has led people to turn away from God and live less full filled lives.

    There are a myriad of other, more real world reasons for that.

    Such as a massive recession, changes in social behaviour and relationships and economic insecurity.

    Crime is way down historically, can secularism take the credit for that?

    Correlation =/= causation.


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    #98
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    one world order wrote: »
    Suicides have been on an upward projectory in Ireland since the late 1980s. In the US the suicide rate increased by 24% since 1999. Similar patterns occur across other western countries. At the same time people's faith in God has been decreasing. School children are more anxious in today's modern world than ever before. While society has made technological advances, the constant attack on religion through the mainstream media has led people to turn away from God and live less full filled lives.

    Bullsh!t.

    Due to the Catholic Churchs demonising of suicide, there was a culture of omerta in this country when it came to people taking their own lives.

    Not only was there the religious stigma of non burials in graveyards, but there was also state refusal to pay pensions, and other social welfare payments, to widows.

    Therfore in cases of people found to have died by suicide, they were quickly "arranged" so that their deaths were not recorded as such. Talk to any experienced suicide Councillor for deeper info.

    So in fact the rise in rates of recorded suicide in this country is actually directly attributable to the Catholic Church.

    Of course put on top of this, the numbers of poor people who suffered all kinds of abuse from said church who sadly took their own lives.

    Like I said earlier, those that espouse charity were shown to be the most cruel.


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    #99
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Making fun of bald people gets god to sent she bears to slaughter you...

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=2%2bKings%2b2:23-24&version=NIV%3bKJV&interface=amp

    Is that an acceptable response to such a small insult...but sure it's in the Bible so we will go with it


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    #100
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Bullsh!t.

    Due to the Catholic Churchs demonising of suicide, there was a culture of omerta in this country when it came to people taking their own lives.

    Not only was there the religious stigma of non burials in graveyards, but there was also state refusal to pay pensions, and other social welfare payments, to widows.

    Therfore in cases of people found to have died by suicide, they were quickly "arranged" so that their deaths were not recorded as such. Talk to any experienced suicide Councillor for deeper info.

    So in fact the rise in rates of recorded suicide in this country is actually directly attributable to the Catholic Church.

    Of course put on top of this, the numbers of poor people who suffered all kinds of abuse from said church who sadly took their own lives.

    Like I said earlier, those that espouse charity were shown to be the most cruel.

    Suicides have been increasing in Ireland since the late 1980's and other western countries continue to have increasing suicide rates. This is something you don't want to accept. There have been people within the Catholic Church that have gone against the bible and what God has told us. Those people will be punished by God. I'm not going to defend the Catholic Church as I think it has been corrupted from within. But I do believe in what the bible says and it's important to have a healthy relationship with God for self worth and happiness.


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    #101
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    one world order wrote: »
    Suicides have been increasing in Ireland since the late 1980's and other western countries continue to have increasing suicide rates. This is something you don't want to accept. There have been people within the Catholic Church that have gone against the bible and what God has told us. Those people will be punished by God. I'm not going to defend the Catholic Church as I think it has been corrupted from within. But I do believe in what the bible says and it's important to have a healthy relationship with God for self worth and happiness.

    Inequality and real wages have also stagnated in that period for most Western countries. I would argue they're much more important.

    I don't have a relationship with God and I have no difficulties with my self worth and happiness


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    #102
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Communism disappeared in the 80s as well.

    Maybe that's why suicides have supposedly gone up.

    We need Papa Joe back.


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    #103
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    troyzer wrote: »
    There are a myriad of other, more real world reasons for that.

    Such as a massive recession, changes in social behaviour and relationships and economic insecurity.

    Crime is way down historically, can secularism take the credit for that?

    Correlation =/= causation.

    Crime rates in Ireland were at its lowest in the 1950s. You didn't even need a lock for a bike back then.


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    #104
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    one world order wrote: »
    This is something you don't want to accept..

    Do not assume to know what I want or not please.

    I've explained to you why it's happening in Ireland, and I put the blame at the foot of the church.
    one world order wrote: »
    But I do believe in what the bible says and it's important to have a healthy relationship with God for self worth and happiness.

    Good for you, but it's absolutely not necessary to have the crutch of religion to have a healthy self worth and happiness.

    To need god to feel self worth is actually sad in my eyes as I see that as an inheritant weakness caused by indoctrination.

    I believe humanity to be ultimately godlike in itself. I think we can all be our own deities in that we judge ourselves on our actions and thoughts, and the ultimate goal of life is to be happy and to bring happiness to others and reduce suffering where you meet it.


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    #105
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Do not assume to know what I want or not please.

    I've explained to you why it's happening in Ireland, and I put the blame at the foot of the church.



    Good for you, but it's absolutely not necessary to have the crutch of religion to have a healthy self worth and happiness.

    To need god to feel self worth is actually sad in my eyes as I see that as an inheritant weakness caused by indoctrination.

    I believe humanity to be ultimately godlike in itself. I think we can all be our own deities in that we judge ourselves on our actions and thoughts, and the ultimate goal of life is to be happy and to bring happiness to others and reduce suffering where you meet it.

    God created you whether you want to believe it or not. You will die one day and that soul that occupies your body will leave it and go to the spiritual world. It's the same for everyone including those that deny they have a soul or deny gods existence. You blame the church and say it has caused the increasing suicide rates. But yet as more and more people continue to leave the church, the suicide rates continue to increase.


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    #106
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    one world order wrote: »
    God created you whether you want to believe it or not. You will die one day and that soul that occupies your body will leave it and go to the spiritual world. It's the same for everyone including those that deny they have a soul or deny gods existence. You blame the church and say it has caused the increasing suicide rates. But yet as more and more people continue to leave the church, the suicide rates continue to increase.

    Do you know what correlation even means?

    You still haven't even established that suicide has gone up.


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    #107
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    With some exceptions, I'm seeing a lot more intolerance of tolerance on this thread. Unbelievers seem to want to deny the right of Christians to their beliefs, despite it being shared in love and truth. If you don't believe us, why you feel enmity towards us? This is the Christianity forum. What do you expect? Either Jesus was a madman and we are crazy to follow him, or he is the beginning and end of everything, and nothing is more important. Does that threaten you?


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    #108
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    homer911 wrote: »
    With some exceptions, I'm seeing a lot more intolerance of tolerance on this thread. Unbelievers seem to want to deny the right of Christians to their beliefs, despite it being shared in love and truth. If you don't believe us, why you feel enmity towards us? This is the Christianity forum. What do you expect? Either Jesus was a madman and we are crazy to follow him, or he is the beginning and end of everything, and nothing is more important. Does that threaten you?

    The folau issue is more to do with employment law. He broke the T&C of his contract so gets fired....


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    #109
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    The folau issue is more to do with employment law. He broke the T&C of his contract so gets fired....

    That's what the legal debate is all about - he signed a contract without a social media clause, then was asked to sign a separate social media clause and declined, so it appears that he has not actually broken any contract (assuming you consider the social media clause, that he didn't sign, to be broken)

    "Folau and his barrister Adam Casselden will argue that RA did not include a specific social media clause in his new contract and that his posts were merely passages from the Bible and not directly his words."
    https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/rugby-australia-reportedly-face-financial-ruin-in-israel-folau-case/news-story/ade87e84d652ec3fc644265588556a40


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    #110
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    homer911 wrote: »
    With some exceptions, I'm seeing a lot more intolerance of tolerance on this thread. Unbelievers seem to want to deny the right of Christians to their beliefs, despite it being shared in love and truth. If you don't believe us, why you feel enmity towards us? This is the Christianity forum. What do you expect? Either Jesus was a madman and we are crazy to follow him, or he is the beginning and end of everything, and nothing is more important. Does that threaten you?

    The likes of folau and some of christians here aren't sharing anything "with love" and truth, the first thing christians need to do every day is take a look at themselves, and what they themselves should be doing that day, what they say and how they say it, before they go preaching what other people should do.


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    #111
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    Nobelium wrote: »
    The likes of folau and some of christians here aren't sharing anything "with love" and truth,
    I disagree. If I hated drunkards, to use one of the examples, and was happy for them to condemn themselves to hell for all eternity, all I would need to do is say nothing at all. By sharing this bible verse, I expect that Folau was encouraging people to reflect on their own sinfulness and to turn away from it, knowing the promise of eternal salvation for those who do and trust in God - surely this is an act of love?
    the first thing christians need to do every day is take a look at themselves, and what they themselves should be doing that day, what they say and how they say it, before they go preaching what other people should do.
    This I do agree with as I said earlier. Becoming a Christian doesn't make us perfect, we are all works-in-progress, but the Bible tells us we should not do anything that would turn others away from the faith, while being truthful to what that faith is


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    #112
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    homer911 wrote: »
    I disagree. If I hated drunkards, to use one of the examples, and was happy for them to condemn themselves to hell for all eternity, all I would need to do is say nothing at all. By sharing this bible verse, I expect that Folau was encouraging people to reflect on their own sinfulness and to turn away from it, knowing the promise of eternal salvation for those who do and trust in God - surely this is an act of love?

    not like a banging gong or a clanging cymbal it's not
    homer911 wrote: »
    This I do agree with as I said earlier. Becoming a Christian doesn't make us perfect, we are all works-in-progress, but the Bible tells us we should not do anything that would turn others away from the faith, while being truthful to what that faith is

    which contradicts your first point and is exactly what Folau did. Folau is a mouth and was not saying anything "with love"


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    #113
    10fathoms
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭10fathoms


    one world order wrote: »
    God created you whether you want to believe it or not. You will die one day and that soul that occupies your body will leave it and go to the spiritual world. It's the same for everyone including those that deny they have a soul or deny gods existence. You blame the church and say it has caused the increasing suicide rates. But yet as more and more people continue to leave the church, the suicide rates continue to increase.

    Must be lovely living such a delusional existence!


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    #114
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    one world order wrote: »
    Read the bible and you will find the answers. It was written over 1,600 years from the time of Abraham to the early Jewish christians. It warns us of the false prophets after Jesus came into this world and of the time in the future those that control this world give everyone the mark of the beast.

    The Bible eh?
    the book that uses stories stolen from other faiths that predate the Christian and Jewish faiths.

    Yep, seems reliable alright.


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    #115
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    one world order wrote: »
    There have been people within the Catholic Church that have gone against the bible and what God has told us. Those people will be punished by God. .

    So countless cardinals, bishops and priests. Oh and numerous popes including the current pope.

    Perhaps you can agree with the above and agree that if your he'll exists numerous popes will be going to it.


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    #116
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/48184011
    Israel Folau has been found guilty of a "high level breach" of Rugby Australia's player code of conduct after he said "hell awaits" gay people in a social media post.
    A three-person panel who presided over his hearing will now consider what punishment the 30-year-old will face.
    The Waratahs full-back, contracted with RA until 2022, escaped punishment for similar comments last year.
    ....In April, Australian rugby league's governing body ruled out Folau returning to the NRL.

    He signed up to a code of conduct and he broke it, its that simple.

    If he didn't like the code of conduct and wanted to preach his hate then perhaps he shouldn't have taken the job?


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    #117
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    1. It appears he never signed up to a social media contract - he had already signed his main contract and declined to sign this extra
    2. Context is everything, if anyone quotes the bible and you take offence, does this mean it was quoted in hate?


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    #118
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Cabaal wrote: »
    He signed up to a code of conduct and he broke it, its that simple.
    That's what they are saying alright, but its not that simple at all.
    Here's the players Code of Conduct.
    1.1 Your safety and the safety of your team mates and opponents comes first. Be aware of, and always comply with, the Rugby AU Safety Policies and Guidelines.
    1.2 Be a good sport, displaying modesty in victory and graciousness in defeat.
    1.3 Treat everyone equally, fairly and with dignity regardless of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, cultural or religious background, age or disability. Any form of bullying, harassment or discrimination has no place in Rugby.
    1.4 Do not repeatedly breach the Laws of the Game relating to Foul Play or Misconduct (as those terms are defined in World Rugby Regulations).
    1.5 Accept and respect the authority of a referee, assistant referee, touch judge or other match or team official. Do not abuse, threaten or intimidate, use crude language or gestures, or show unnecessary obvious dissension, displeasure or disapproval towards a referee, touch judge or other match official, whether on or off the field, or a selector, coach, manager or other team official.
    1.6 Do not make any public comment that is critical of the performance of a match official, player, team official, coach or employee/officer/volunteer of any club or a Union; or on any matter that is, or is likely to be, the subject of an investigation or disciplinary process; or otherwise make any public comment that would likely be detrimental to the best interests, image and welfare of the Game, a team, a club, a competition or Union.
    1.7 Use Social Media appropriately. By all means share your positive experiences of Rugby but do not use Social Media as a means to breach any of the expectations and requirements of you as a player contained in this Code or in any Union, club or competition rules and regulations.
    1.8 Do not otherwise act in a way that may adversely affect or reflect on, or bring you, your team, club, Rugby Body or Rugby into disrepute or discredit. If you commit a criminal offence, this is likely to adversely reflect on you and your team, club, Rugby Body and Rugby.
    1.9 You must assist in any investigation or disciplinary proceedings and ensure that no inaccurate and/or misleading information is provided by you during the course of an investigation or hearing under this Code or in relation to any other disciplinary proceedings.
    1.10 You must disclose any incident, matter or set of circumstances (irrespective of when it occurred) that does, or has the potential to, render you an unfit or improper person to be a Participant in Australian Rugby. This includes any incident, matter or set of circumstances that could damage the game of Rugby or bring into question the integrity and good character of its Participants.
    Download it yourself here, if you want.


    Which bit of the code does he break by having fairly standard and well known Christian beliefs about homosexuality? (similar beliefs also shared by Muslims and many others)

    These are the two questions that need to be asked;

    1. Did Folau harass or bully any LBGT player, or did he seek to prevent any such player from participating in the game? IMO the answer is No.

    2. Did anyone else harass or bully Folau on account of his religious beliefs, or did they seek to prevent him from participating in the game?
    IMO the answer is Yes.


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    #119
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    1.3 - Treat everyone equally, fairly and with dignity regardless of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, cultural or religious background, age or disability. Any form of bullying, harassment or discrimination has no place in Rugby.

    1.7 - Use Social Media appropriately. By all means share your positive experiences of Rugby but do not use Social Media as a means to breach any of the expectations and requirements of you as a player contained in this Code or in any Union, club or competition rules and regulations.

    Stating that gay people and atheists will go to hell if they don't repent is clearly discriminating against people based on sexual orientation or religious background. He had already been warned of this previously yet persisted in the full knowledge that his actions were in breach of the code of conduct. As already mentioned, it is that simple.


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    #120
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Stating that gay people and atheists will go to hell if they don't repent is clearly discriminating against people based on sexual orientation or religious background.
    No it's not, because he is not selecting the players; he is after all, only a player himself.

    The fact that he has been de-selected because he expressed his religious beliefs is a breach of the code though.


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    #121
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    smacl wrote: »
    Stating that gay people and atheists will go to hell if they don't repent is clearly discriminating against people based on sexual orientation or religious background. He had already been warned of this previously yet persisted in the full knowledge that his actions were in breach of the code of conduct. As already mentioned, it is that simple.

    There cant be discrimination unless you now consider him to be God and he is making the decisions about Heaven and Hell. Also how can quoting the Bible be perceived as discrimination? The world has yet to come up with a law that considers pointing out to sinners their future, as being discriminatory or racist. I'm also pretty sure that this Bible quote was directed at Christians, warning them not to live like pagans


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