"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

badtoro · 13-05-2019 04:43PM

If Cersei was preggers with Jamie's baby I don't see how anyone might think he'd kill her, despite how bad she was.

RickBlaine · 13-05-2019 04:44PM

I don’t understand Tyrion’s motivation for telling Dany that Varys was betraying her. On one hand, he is the Hand to the Queen so I understand he needs to keep her informed, but on the other hand, he must have known it would mean Varys’s death. I just think after all they’ve been through, he would have found a way for Varys to survive, even if it meant giving him some warning so he had the opportunity to escape to Winterfell.

Back in season 5, I thought pairing Dany with Tyrion was a great idea. But since then, he’s become more and more of a supporting character rather than the lead role he used to be in the first 4 seasons. And this season especially has dumbed him down a lot. His friendship with Sansa was promising, and if she ends up ruling Westeros he’ll probably be her hand, but the show has pretty much ran out of time to do anything else interesting with him aside from confronting Dany next episode.

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 04:45PM

is_that_so wrote: »

It does defy belief that she should suddenly flip once she found out that her lover was her nephew and potentially her king.

In a short period of time - 2 of her ‘children’ - dead, trusted advisor 1 – dead, trusted advisor 2 – betrays her, trusted advisor 3 – repeatedly fails her, best friend – dead, 2 armies that followed her across the sea – nearly all dead, 2 great houses who were going to support her claim – dead, her claim to being the rightful ruler – dead, the people who she grew up hearing wanted a Targaryen on the throne – lies.

But yeah, a sudden flip because of being turned down…

meeeeh · 13-05-2019 04:47PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I personally always thought that it was a case that GRRM gave the nod to the ending proposed by D & D, as opposed to them writing the ending he'd planned for the book. And just because he was happy with the ending they came up, it doesn't follow that this was the ending he had in mind.

I think it's more that he can change his mind about the ending he planned and gave to the series writters. First three books are well plotted and coherent but I think that after that Martin lost himself a bit and went to wide. I'm not sure part of the writting block is not because there are too many strands he needs to pull together. I'm pretty confident though that Danny's and Jon's arcs were plotted from the beginning.

nix · 13-05-2019 04:49PM

leggo wrote: »

Oh come on. Do you want to sit here, on boards.ie now with everyone reading what you're saying, and be taken seriously in saying that, in the time that they spent with each other as GRRM outlined everything that he had planned for the ending that would serve as their goal to work towards with the show (which we've known about since the show started), that he was just like: "And you can do whatever you want with Danaerys, I don't have much planned there"?

Then they put in a bunch of scenes that just happened to play out exactly what did end up happening...but that's all a coincidence? And those scenes actually meant what you thought they meant all along? With your big reasoning being: because it was snowing?!

There's not admitting you're wrong and there's this. Hilarious. :pac:

I'm neither right nor wrong with regards to the vision sequence, im speculating based on what we've seen in the show, you're making **** up and connecting dots that ain't there

leggo · 13-05-2019 04:50PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I personally always thought that it was a case that GRRM gave the nod to the ending proposed by D & D, as opposed to them writing the ending he'd planned for the book. And just because he was happy with the ending they came up, it doesn't follow that this was the ending he had in mind.

I agree that the endings will end up completely different, if we ever even get a book ending. But that doesn't change the fact that they met and were clued in on what his original planned ending was, this isn't disputed and all have spoken about this writing conference they had. When he started the ASOIAF Arya, Jon and Tyrion were in a love triangle, his writing style means he tinkers a lot.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 04:52PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

In a short period of time - 2 of her ‘children’ - dead, trusted advisor 1 – dead, trusted advisor 2 – betrays her, trusted advisor 3 – repeatedly fails her, best friend – dead, 2 armies that followed her across the sea – nearly all dead, 2 great houses who were going to support her claim – dead, her claim to being the rightful ruler – dead, the people who she grew up hearing wanted a Targaryen on the throne – lies.

But yeah, a sudden flip because of being turned down…

Still not credible that she would turn into a raging psychopath in such a short time. Take on and wipe out her nemesis sure but the rest of the scorched earth was lazy. This is a woman who once believed in freeing slaves, just callously burning innocent people. This behaviour does the overall character they "developed" a great disservice unless the "let's make her mad after all" device was the out for S8.

lawlolawl · 13-05-2019 04:59PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

Ya can't blame people too much for thinking she would resist turning into the mad queen :P

The writers kind of forgot about the stuff they written.

storker · 13-05-2019 04:59PM

leggo wrote: »

When he started the ASOIAF Arya, Jon and Tyrion were in a love triangle, his writing style means he tinkers a lot.

Wasn't Arya 10 years old at the start? :eek:

Airyfairy12 · 13-05-2019 05:00PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Still not credible that she would turn into a raging psychopath in such a short time. Take on and wipe out her nemesis sure but the rest of the scorched earth was lazy. This is a woman who once believed in freeing slaves, just callously burning innocent people. This behaviour does the overall character they "developed" a great disservice unless the "let's make her mad after all" device was the out for S8.

It makes sense, she worked so hard to get there only to have it all taken away at the last leg. She would have done anything to take it at this stage, no ones getting in her way.

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 05:00PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Still not credible that she would turn into a raging psychopath. Take on and wipe out her nemesis sure but the rest of the scorched earth was lazy. This is a woman who once believed in freeing slaves, just callously burning innocent people. This behaviour does the overall character a great disservice.

Slaves who followed her and fed into her god complex. She has never had any issue with killing people in horrible ways for mere association with her enemies or for not submitting to her rule. She expected the same welcome from the people of Westeros as she did from the slaves and instead they shrugged their shoulders and stuck with what they knew. She has always been driven by a lust for power, vengeance, and self-preservation and she clearly states the only way she’ll be able to rule now is through fear.

You mightn’t like the turn but the signs have been there for years.

nix · 13-05-2019 05:04PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Slaves who followed her and fed into her god complex. She has never had any issue with killing people in horrible ways for mere association with her enemies or for not submitting to her rule. She expected the same welcome from the people of Westeros as she did from the slaves and instead they shrugged their shoulders and stuck with what they knew. She has always been driven by a lust for power, vengeance, and self-preservation and she clearly states the only way she’ll be able to rule now is through fear.

You mightn’t like the turn but the signs have been there for years.

She never spoke to the people in Kings landing though, she just flew around on a beast none of them have ever seen before scaring the bejaysus out of them and then laid waste to their homes and them

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 05:05PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

The writers kind of forgot about the stuff they written.

How dare the show runners not give away key pieces of the plot from the second last episode during a pointless vague episode recap :rolleyes:

pxdf9i5cmoavkz · 13-05-2019 05:05PM

J. Marston wrote: »

Well, Dany is full tyrant now. Disappointed.

Why? She was always a tyrant from the moment they introduced her character. It's a classic case of someone being given too much power too quickly who has no idea what to do with it responsibly (as responsible as you can get waging war). She has always been cruel and brutal against her opponents. This is not someone you want sitting on the Iron Throne.

Like a typical psychopath everything she does is an emotional reaction and not a calculated decision. I'm not surprised she has come to this.

Give me Sansa any day.

BoroMan32 · 13-05-2019 05:05PM

Necro wrote: »

The initial buzz I got from Dany taking down the fleet and the ballistas was amazing. Cos, let's face it those things were like those cheat codes everyone used to know in GTA.

Then the bells begin to ring yet she burns the entire city and suddenly you're like... um, ok that's not right.....you've won now
OMFG you're now committing mass murder you Mad Queen!!!

I thought that was absolutely unbelievable. The acting, the way scenes were shot.

I'm sure some will come on and whinge about some nitpicking nonsense but can we all just take a moment and realise this was not a movie but a TV show, a feature length episode that was simply amazing.

Bang on the money with this post. That was absolutely sensational stuff.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 05:06PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

It makes sense, she worked so hard to get there only to have it all taken away at the last leg. She would have done anything to take it at this stage, no ones getting in her way.

And yet it makes for a very poor and lazy story. She was after Cersei and that's where she should have gone instead of just razing the city.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 05:10PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Slaves who followed her and fed into her god complex. She has never had any issue with killing people in horrible ways for mere association with her enemies or for not submitting to her rule. She expected the same welcome from the people of Westeros as she did from the slaves and instead they shrugged their shoulders and stuck with what they knew. She has always been driven by a lust for power, vengeance, and self-preservation and she clearly states the only way she’ll be able to rule now is through fear.

You mightn’t like the turn but the signs have been there for years.

If by years you mean one and a half episodes then sure. There was a better out for her but the writers ignored it and favoured widescale homicide and destruction.

Penn · 13-05-2019 05:10PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Still not credible that she would turn into a raging psychopath in such a short time. Take on and wipe out her nemesis sure but the rest of the scorched earth was lazy. This is a woman who once believed in freeing slaves, just callously burning innocent people. This behaviour does the overall character they "developed" a great disservice unless the "let's make her mad after all" device was the out for S8.

I disagree. She says it herself, she has no love here. She believed she'd come to Westeros, say she's going free people from Cersei's tyranny, and she'd be loved and adored like she was by the slaves in Astapor and Mereen. She joined Jon's army to fight the NK and she, her army and her dragons were instrumental in their success. But the people still don't love her. Before she came to Westeros she was winning almost all the time, and her power grew and grew. Since she came to Westeros, she lost Dorne, the Iron Islands, two dragons, half the Unsullied, half the Dothraki, Jorah and Missande. More than that though, she's lost the one thing that truly mattered to her; her destiny. She believes the throne is hers by right but now she discovers Jon, a man she came to love, is the rightful heir.

There was always a madness within her which her advisors and her victories kept at bay. Now she doesn't trust the advisors she has left, hasn't been welcomed to Westeros with open arms and love like she thought, and so she sees fear as her only path to the throne. The throne is all she has cared about for most of the show. Everything was about getting the throne, because it's hers by right... but now it isn't. It can't be hers by right, so it has to be hers through fear.

I think it's been done brilliantly tbh. I would have preferred a slower burn for it, and think maybe if they'd done two seasons even just of 8 episodes each rather than 7 and 6, it could have been done slightly better, but I think Dany's turn is fantastic.

lawlolawl · 13-05-2019 05:11PM

Ares Crashing Card wrote: »

Why? She was always a tyrant from the moment they introduced her character. It's a classic case of someone being given too much power too quickly who has no idea what to do with it responsibly (as responsible as you can get waging war). She has always been cruel and brutal against her opponents. This is not someone you want sitting on the Iron Throne.

Like a typical psychopath everything she does is an emotional reaction and not a calculated decision. I'm not surprised she has come to this.

Give me Sansa any day.

Sansa is a moron and her inability to keep her mouth shut is a huge part of Dany going bonkers.

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 05:13PM

nix wrote: »

She never spoke to the people in Kings landing though, she just flew around on a beast none of them have ever seen before scaring the bejaysus out of them and then laid waste to their homes and them

They made it clear by her repeatedly showing frustration during the last 2 seasons that the people haven’t risen up and instead stuck with Cersei. The whole turning up at the gates in the previous episode was Tyrion talking her into giving the people a chance to hear her and see what they’re facing. In her experience across the sea, the slaves needed a lot less to join her and she expected the same.

mrkiscool2 · 13-05-2019 05:13PM

nix wrote: »

She never spoke to the people in Kings landing though, she just flew around on a beast none of them have ever seen before scaring the bejaysus out of them and then laid waste to their homes and them

She doesn't have to speak to the people of Kings Landing though. Either way, that dragon is doing some damage. And sorry, but regular people are bound to be scared of a dragon. Hell, one of the first shots of this season is Dany, in a show of force, having the dragons fly over head causing the Northerners, who are hardy b*stards, to cower in fear and terror.

And that's when she is with their leader and welcomed by the ruling house of the North. Now imagine the people of King's Landing are being told "There is a crazy woman with a dragon coming to attack the city." You think they aren't going to be fearful? Cersei may have used them like pawns, but she used the citizens to make sure that in order for the dragon to be effective against the Red Keep she was going to have to slaughter some regular citizens.

The Iron Giant · 13-05-2019 05:15PM

Can we all just be thankful that the elephants are safe...

Airyfairy12 · 13-05-2019 05:17PM

is_that_so wrote: »

And yet it makes for a very poor and lazy story. She was after Cersei and that's where she should have gone instead of just razing the city.

They knew this was coming, she gave Cersei a chance, tyrion and jamie even tired to get her to stand down, they knew dany was capable of anything. After what Cersei did to her best friend she went into full rage and destroyed the entire city. She lost the plot and took her anger out on innocent people to show Cersei what shes capable of and is probably blaming Cersei for the whole situation. If Cersei had stood down, not killed her best mate, none of this would have happened.

lawlolawl · 13-05-2019 05:17PM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Can we all just be thankful that the elephants are safe...

Also, Fabio the Horse survived Buck Strickland getting murdered.

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 05:18PM

is_that_so wrote: »

If by years you mean one and a half episodes then sure. There was a better out for her but the writers ignored it and favoured widescale homicide and destruction.

Have you watched only one and a half episodes?

Just because she spent years doing terrible things to people who are painted as being ‘bad’ doesn’t mean those acts aren’t terrible or even that the acts are done for good reasons.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 05:19PM

Penn wrote: »

I disagree. She says it herself, she has no love here. She believed she'd come to Westeros, say she's going free people from Cersei's tyranny, and she'd be loved and adored like she was by the slaves in Astapor and Mereen. She joined Jon's army to fight the NK and she, her army and her dragons were instrumental in their success. But the people still don't love her. Before she came to Westeros she was winning almost all the time, and her power grew and grew. Since she came to Westeros, she lost Dorne, the Iron Islands, two dragons, half the Unsullied, half the Dothraki, Jorah and Missande. More than that though, she's lost the one thing that truly mattered to her; her destiny. She believes the throne is hers by right but now she discovers Jon, a man she came to love, is the rightful heir.

There was always a madness within her which her advisors and her victories kept at bay. Now she doesn't trust the advisors she has left, hasn't been welcomed to Westeros with open arms and love like she thought, and so she sees fear as her only path to the throne. The throne is all she has cared about for most of the show. Everything was about getting the throne, because it's hers by right... but now it isn't. It can't be hers by right, so it has to be hers through fear.

I think it's been done brilliantly tbh. I would have preferred a slower burn for it, and think maybe if they'd done two seasons even just of 8 episodes each rather than 7 and 6, it could have been done slightly better, but I think Dany's turn is fantastic.

Nah it's just really bad writing. They could have had her do what she came for and moved on with the conclusion. The descent into madness happened over less than a half an hour, well 20 seconds screen time if you count the demonic rage. All they delivered was a character who wasted seven seasons become a ruler only to quickly turn psycho in a battle she was always going to win.

13-05-2019 05:22PM

Who rang the bell it wasn't as it couldnt have been jamie?

nix · 13-05-2019 05:22PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

She doesn't have to speak to the people of Kings Landing though. Either way, that dragon is doing some damage. And sorry, but regular people are bound to be scared of a dragon. Hell, one of the first shots of this season is Dany, in a show of force, having the dragons fly over head causing the Northerners, who are hardy b*stards, to cower in fear and terror.

And that's when she is with their leader and welcomed by the ruling house of the North. Now imagine the people of King's Landing are being told "There is a crazy woman with a dragon coming to attack the city." You think they aren't going to be fearful? Cersei may have used them like pawns, but she used the citizens to make sure that in order for the dragon to be effective against the Red Keep she was going to have to slaughter some regular citizens.

Oh i fully agree, but burning everything that remained after victory was already assured wasnt the best way for her to progress, maybe letting her troops regain for control of everything and then give her speech from the position of the new Queen on the throne and then try and win their hearts from there, like what she has done all the way up until that point.

Not kill them all and destroy the city for no reason, just didnt make sense, regardless of her loss.

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 05:23PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Nah it's just really bad writing. They could have had her do what she came for and moved on with the conclusion. The descent into madness happened over less than a half an hour, well 20 seconds screen time if you count the demonic rage. All they delivered was a character who wasted seven seasons become a ruler only to quickly turn psycho in a battle she was always going to win.

During those ‘wasted’ seven seasons, how did she become that ruler? What did she do to the people who didn't submit to her? What did she do to people who were associated with her enemies? What did her advisers have to talk her down from doing on several occasions?

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 05:23PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

They knew this was coming, she gave Cersei a chance, tyrion and jamie even tired to get her to stand down, they knew dany was capable of anything. After what Cersei did to her best friend she went into full rage and destroyed the entire city. She lost the plot and took her anger out on innocent people to show Cersei what shes capable of and is probably blaming Cersei for the whole situation. If Cersei had stood down, not killed her best mate, none of this would have happened.

I think it's more down to the bad writing again and there were many others ways to dal with that, which didn't involve loads of CGI. The Messandei thing was just as bad. Roll on the finale, none too soon I might add ,and all hail the psycho!

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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