NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 08:39PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Of course there is. NBI cannot sell products in an existing open eir FTTH area.

Um...I thought NBI is only to be a wholesaler
Ergo it's all existing providers who can sell products, no difference
Seamless

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 08:43PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Um...I thought NBI is only to be a wholesaler
Ergo it's all existing providers who can sell products, no difference
Seamless

NBI cannot wholesale in an open eir area. If no dark fibre the cable has to be run through these areas to get to the ends that open eir have left behind.

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 08:46PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

NBI cannot wholesale in an open eir area. If no dark fibre the cable has to be run through these areas to get to the ends that open eir have left behind.

Yes but they're not selling a product in their own area,I thought,that's what I meant ,theyre solely a wholesale entity I thought
Meaning same providers on open Éir as in the NBP, No?

BarryD2 · 08-05-2019 08:46PM

Marlow wrote: »

What you have to consider is, that if you rent poles, then you can run a cable with multiple fibres along that (32, 48 or 96 core) for that same pole pricing....

As I've pointed out above, the elephant in the room is that a good proportion of the existing telephone pole network owned by Eir is unfit for purpose. Anyone who travels the rural roads of Ireland and looks about them will see that. Only politicians and officials who sit in office in Dublin would think otherwise. I'd reckon that much of it was installed by Telecom Eireann or the old Dept of Posts & Telegraphs back in the day. Timber poles only last so long..

So renting poles off Eir means in effect in many places, that Eir will be paid to replace these poles or put in ducting. Telephone lines were generally installed along the county roads, I suppose for ease of access. These roadside ditches are often full of bushes and trees now which have implications for the lines. Whereas ESB lines are more likely to run cross country and have been well maintained on the whole. Just logically if you had to carry cable by poles, the ESB pole network is much more suitable on the whole I'd have thought.

irishfeen · 08-05-2019 08:49PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

As I've pointed out above, the elephant in the room is that a good proportion of the existing telephone pole network owned by Eir is unfit for purpose. Anyone who travels the rural roads of Ireland and looks about them will see that. I'd reckon that much of it was installed by Telecom Eireann or the old Dept of Posts & Telegraphs back in the day.

So renting poles off Eir means in effect in many places, that Eir will be paid to replace these poles or put in ducting. Telephone lines were generally installed along the county roads, I suppose for ease of access. These roadside ditches are often full of bushes and trees now which have implications for the lines. Whereas ESB lines are more likely to run cross country and have been well maintained on the whole. Just logically if you had to carry cable by poles, the ESB pole network is much more suitable on the whole I'd have thought.

Not particularly, the cost of health and safety alone with crews working on live ESB poles, often 3phase would be astronomical compared with P&T lines.

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 08:51PM

I think Éir not maintaining poles is s myth
They replaced 2 on my lane going only to me about a year before I left them,that's 3 years ago

sdanseo · 08-05-2019 08:53PM

Rural Ireland needs broadband, no one questions that.

But for not only the Sec Gen of the department but his entire senior staff to recommend against something, and then it to be done anyway, absolutely stinks.

Marlow · 08-05-2019 08:53PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

So renting poles off Eir means in effect in many places, that Eir will be paid to replace these poles or put in ducting.

OpenEIR .. not Eir ..

And also, OpenEIR will incur the cost to replace these poles plus the license fees to councils + labour. Yes.

While NBI in that case pays an annual fee for renting these poles, which is a fixed, calculated cost. It can go both ways. Nobody says they have to use OpenEIRs poles. They can always do their own, but that will probably work out even more costly.

And for the capacity they need, renting dark fibre from OpenEIR at regulated wholesale price will work out even more pricy ... due to the volume they need.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 08:53PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Yes but they're not selling a product in their own area,I thought,that's what I meant ,theyre solely a wholesale entity I thought
Meaning same providers on open Éir as in the NBP, No?

I'm not sure why providers are being brought into it. Yes it is likely there will be the same ISPs on both networks.

What I am talking about is the wastage of time and money if NBI cannot use the existing open eir cabling to reach premises left by open eir. It also has the effect that if you are at the end of an open eir line you may be waiting longer for service as NBI might target "greenfield" areas where there are more premises per metre of cable.

irishfeen · 08-05-2019 08:54PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

I think Éir not maintaining poles is s myth
They replaced 2 on my lane going only to me about a year before I left them,that's 3 years ago

To be fair it’s not a myth in some places, ESB network is far superior but P&T is easy and safe to work around.

BarryD2 · 08-05-2019 08:54PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

I think Éir not maintaining poles is s myth
They replaced 2 on my lane going only to me about a year before I left them,that's 3 years ago

I'll take a few photos of poles around here so and post them tomorrow

listermint · 08-05-2019 08:56PM

sdanseo wrote: »

Rural Ireland needs broadband, no one questions that.

But for not only the Sec Gen of the department but his entire senior staff to recommend against something, and then it to be done anyway, absolutely stinks.

Civil servants aren't infallible though. In fact they've been behind litany of awful decisions and remain untouched. Simple because executive officers are untouchable. They live through consecutive governments and allow ministers to take the falls

I'd be less cynical if they had explicit reasons.

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 08:56PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I'm not sure why providers are being brought into it. Yes it is likely there will be the same ISPs on both networks.

What I am talking about is the wastage of time and money if NBI cannot use the existing open eir cabling to reach premises left by open eir. It also has the effect that if you are at the end of an open eir line you may be waiting longer for service as NBI might target "greenfield" areas where there are more premises per metre of cable.

Where or who is suggesting they won't use existing poles,we know they will be,isn't it part of the 1 billion open Éir rental fee
New build to new premises only
New cabling everywhere obviously

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 09:02PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Where or who is suggesting they won't use existing poles,we know they will be,isn't it part of the 1 billion open Éir rental fee
New build to new premises only
New cabling everywhere obviously

I'll give you an example. There is a house 5.5km from an exchange Both routes to the exchange are currently covered by open eir FTTH yet this one house was left out.

So for NBI to service this home they can run 5.5km of cable over however many poles at not inconsiderable cost and time or they can run 500m of cable from the last distribution point to the home. Which is preferential in your opinion?

Multiply this scenario countless times nationwide.

Marlow · 08-05-2019 09:03PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Of course there is. NBI cannot sell products in an existing open eir FTTH area.

They still have to connect the left out premises en route. Lots of single ones of those. Especially all the ones 150m or more from the road.

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

What I am talking about is the wastage of time and money if NBI cannot use the existing open eir cabling to reach premises left by open eir. It also has the effect that if you are at the end of an open eir line you may be waiting longer for service as NBI might target "greenfield" areas where there are more premises per metre of cable.

Look at the calculation I did a few posts back. Even if dark fibre from OpenEIR was available, it would cost them more to use it than just paying for the poles and running their own fibre.

/M

BarryD2 · 08-05-2019 09:03PM

Marlow wrote: »

OpenEIR .. not Eir ..

And also, OpenEIR will incur the cost to replace these poles plus the license fees to councils + labour. Yes.

While NBI in that case pays an annual fee for renting these poles, which is a fixed, calculated cost. It can go both ways. Nobody says they have to use OpenEIRs poles. They can always do their own, but that will probably work out even more costly.

And for the capacity they need, renting dark fibre from OpenEIR at regulated wholesale price will work out even more pricy ... due to the volume they need.

/M

Well I'd be thinking in that case that there'll need to be widespread cutting of roadside trees and ditches where these lines run. Which will draw it's own set of critics from environmental POVs. And will need regular maintenance, otherwise in a few years the normal storms will cause widespread outages. As it is Eir or OpenEir have cut back their field staff, in fact I think they may have outsourced fault fixing. All I know as a customer is that times to fix landline faults have increased substantially. The local TE or Eircom lad you'd see driving around has disappeared.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 09:05PM

Marlow wrote: »

They still have to connect the left out premises en route. Lots of single ones of those. Especially all the ones 150m or more from the road.

Look at the calculation I did a few posts back. Even if dark fibre from OpenEIR was available, it would cost them more to use it than just paying for the poles and running their own fibre.

/M

Your calculation is way off for one off houses. Why would they need to lease 32 fibres to serve one or two homes.

Marlow · 08-05-2019 09:06PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

As it is Eir or OpenEir have cut back their field staff, in fact I think they may have outsourced fault fixing. All I know as a customer is that times to fix landline faults have increased substantially. The local TE or Eircom lad you'd see driving around has disappeared.

It is already mainly outsourced. Especially the fibre works.

And fixing FTTH issues at the moment is same or next day in general for end user problems. Bigger problems like after the last storm a week ago take longer, but generally affect multiple end-users.

/M

Marlow · 08-05-2019 09:08PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Your calculation is way off for one off houses. Why would they need to lease 32 fibres to serve one or two homes.

For one off houses where you only need to reach that one house .. yes .. the calculation doesn't work there. And they may not even be serviced by fibre in the end, because even using a dark fibre strand may become too expensive.

For the bigger clusters and one off premises passed to get to these clusters, buying dark fibre strands is not economical.

Also ... the one house you are referring to .. is that maybe en route from an exchange to another cluster ?? There's always a bigger picture.

/M

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 09:10PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I'll give you an example. There is a house 5.5km from an exchange Both routes to the exchange are currently covered by open eir FTTH yet this one house was left out.

So for NBI to service this home they can run 5.5km of cable over however many poles at not inconsiderable cost and time or they can run 500m of cable from the last distribution point to the home. Which is preferential in your opinion?

Multiply this scenario countless times nationwide.

I'd say that house will get a €5000 bill :O

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 09:11PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

I'll take a few photos of poles around here so and post them tomorrow

Do and I'll put up one of my new pole..
Not much point in that

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 09:13PM

Marlow wrote: »

For one off houses where you only need to reach that one house .. yes .. the calculation doesn't work there. And they may not even be serviced by fibre in the end, because even using a dark fibre strand may become too expensive.

For the bigger clusters and one off premises passed to get to these clusters, buying dark fibre strands is not economical.

Also ... the one house you are referring to .. is that maybe en route from an exchange to another cluster ?? There's always a bigger picture.

/M

It's pretty much equidistant from the exchange in both directions. FTTH DPs within ~ 500m each side.

It must be an absolute nightmare trying to design this network to get economical use of resources. Especially in the areas covered by open eir.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 09:15PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

I'd say that house will get a €5000 bill :O

There will be a lot of people getting bills then because there are plenty of homes in similar situations.

Marlow · 08-05-2019 09:18PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It's pretty much equidistant from the exchange in both directions. FTTH DPs within ~ 500m each side.

It must be an absolute nightmare trying to design this network to get economical use of resources. Especially in the areas covered by open eir.

I have always maintained, that the 300k rollout (while very good for those who were covered) was total sabotage of the NBP. It drove cost vs benefit into nonsense figures. Especially how they let OpenEIR skip houses en route.

I know of a house, that's 80m of the fibre path (on a side road), has a duct to a pole on the fibre path (with copper in it) where there actually is a DP and OpenEIR won't connect them because they are earmarked NBP. Go figure.

/M

westyIrl · 08-05-2019 09:38PM

Marlow wrote: »

I have always maintained, that the 300k rollout (while very good for those who were covered) was total sabotage of the NBP. It drove cost vs benefit into nonsense figures. Especially how they let OpenEIR skip houses en route.

I know of a house, that's 80m of the fibre path (on a side road), has a duct to a pole on the fibre path (with copper in it) where there actually is a DP and OpenEIR won't connect them because they are earmarked NBP. Go figure.

/M

I've seen plenty such scenarios around myself also. Surely, it's going to be more economical for NBI to subcontract OpenEir to connect them (to OE own fibre) even at an inflated cost for such anomolies.

One would guess some deal has been done between the two. At a certain price it would be in both parties interest. Another stroke by OE nonetheless.

Jim

Mortelaro · 08-05-2019 09:44PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

There will be a lot of people getting bills then because there are plenty of homes in similar situations.

Ah we can't possibly know how many of those there are,1% or 3% or less
We also don't know what NBI's proposals are in network build to deal with those or if they will have arrangements with Éir for anomalies
Let's be positive
95 to 99% are going to have something not dreamed of not so long ago and the envy of economies multiples of the size of ours

ED E · 08-05-2019 09:45PM

Weckler has done a podcast with Peter Hendrick
https://pca.st/22d5

funnyname · 08-05-2019 10:07PM

OneEightSeven wrote: »

This is false. There are no economic benefits to bringing fibre to one-off houses. The €3 billion spent on this will never be recouped and seen again.

People said the same on free edumacation and how's we doing on that now?

The Cush · 08-05-2019 10:18PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So is the potential cost to the state €2 bn should things go according to plan?

If that is the case then it is difficult to know why ministers do not refer to it in place of the €3 bn figure.

The maths of it are below, in the case of vat, it still has to be budgeted for in the Dept estimates and paid out as part of the overall subsidy payment, even if recouped later. The contingency might never be required, unlikely though over a 25 year period.

We can all say the cost to the taxpayer will be actually closer to €2bn but the Dept's annual budget estimates must take the full figure into account.

€2,970,000,000 – Total Subsidy over 25 years
€545,000,000 - Contingency or slush fund (e.g. bad weather repairs)
€355,000,000 - VAT
€2,070,000,000‬ - Cost minus contingency and VAT

The Cush · 08-05-2019 10:34PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

As I've pointed out above, the elephant in the room is that a good proportion of the existing telephone pole network owned by Eir is unfit for purpose. Anyone who travels the rural roads of Ireland and looks about them will see that. Only politicians and officials who sit in office in Dublin would think otherwise. I'd reckon that much of it was installed by Telecom Eireann or the old Dept of Posts & Telegraphs back in the day. Timber poles only last so long..

So renting poles off Eir means in effect in many places, that Eir will be paid to replace these poles or put in ducting. Telephone lines were generally installed along the county roads, I suppose for ease of access. These roadside ditches are often full of bushes and trees now which have implications for the lines. Whereas ESB lines are more likely to run cross country and have been well maintained on the whole. Just logically if you had to carry cable by poles, the ESB pole network is much more suitable on the whole I'd have thought.

They don't have the same wayleave rights as the ESB to access land to install poles, so they have to locate them along the roadside.

In my area FTTH went live in Nov 2017, about 15 months before an open-eir man had the job of checking all the poles in the exchange area for defects, proper depth etc., marking defective poles and scanning the barcode tag on each pole which stored its GPS location on the open-eir database. Over the next 6-8 months all defective marked poles were replaced, including those on the 300k rollout and those on the NBP routes. This also happened in the neighbouring exchange area. So all poles are ready to take fibre.

When it came to hedge cutting only the 300k route was done, so NBI will have to do this when they start their rollout here.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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