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Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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    #752
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    For people like me who are still trying to make sense of all this, but could be convinced to take a lot of what you have to say on board, your aggression is very off-putting.

    This is probably around the 10th transgender related thread on this forum in the last few months, there was probably more threads about transgender people before then. It's the same bunch of posters who oppose and question anything transgender related denying transgender people their rights with all sorts of insults thrown at transgender people, this discussion with them maybe new to you but it is not new with them.


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    #753
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    As for chromosomes. the 2,617 scientists say there is no actual genetic test for sex* or gender so it's not really relevant in your definition.
    *Once again, citation needed, but strangely not forthcoming.



    And while you’re at it, do you have an answer for this question I asked you before?
    Candamir wrote: »
    Really, they’re not. They are a Transwoman, not a biological woman.

    And how about trans women who have not medically (or surgically) transitioned? Do you also consider these adult females? How does an adult male become an adult female? What are the requirements in your opinion. Do they have to take some medical or surgical steps, or do they just have to think it? Serious question, I’m interested in your opinion.


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    #754
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Candamir wrote: »
    Saying you are scientifically illiterate isn’t a personal attack. It’s an observation.



    It's been clearly established on this thread that klaaz doesn't understand the difference between an observation and a personal attack. Just ask The Dunne.

    I could observe that my friend is gay and it'd make me a homophobe in klaazs head.


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    #755
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    Zorya wrote: »
    Oh there will be womb transplants into males and there will be pregnancies. Those pregnancies will be maintained with heavy loads of hormones. It won't be a consideration about what this might do to the developing foetus, so long as some transhumanist fetish is fulfilled. It will be called a human right. Just as a child was recently exclusively fed on milk induced from a male by serious doses of Domperidone. Who cares that that hormone is banned in many countries for its bad effects on the heart.

    Why did they even bother with that stupid charade? It’s no news that men have breast tissue (I think about 1% of breast cancers occur in males), so it obvious with hormonal support that tissue can be made to produce milk. Poor kid.


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    #756
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    *Once again, citation needed, but strangely not forthcoming.

    2,617 scientists said it, not me.
    Candamir wrote: »
    And while you’re at it, do you have an answer for this question I asked you before?

    Which post was that, point to the link?


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    #757
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    If changing sex was possible then there would have been a successful uterus transplant into a (former?) male by now. As it is now, it's unlikely to ever happen when every single cell of a body is coded by sex and you can be sure that the body knows a uterus does not belong there with no endocrinal system to support it, even if the brain thinks otherwise.
    Actually, I could see that being possible some day, maybe even today. It would be extremely complex, but gender might not be such an issue. Today we routinely transplant kidneys or whatever from women into men and vice versa, though IIRC there can be some complications there and it's better to go male to male, female to female. Still if you had a biological male whose gonads were removed and hormone profiles built up to resemble an adult woman's and they were compatible on blood and other factors I can't see how a womb transplant wouldn't work. Now pregnancy IE a functioning womb, that's a whole other matter and you'd have to transplant ovaries(or IVF?).
    That's not denying trans people the right to exist. They have that right as any other people and to be treated socially, legally etc as their chosen gender. I'm fully onboard with that. I'm not on board with the biological reality and protections of half the population being erased and appropiated. That's all.
    Ditto.
    klaaaz wrote: »
    Well done on your first time looking up a factual document from Wpath, its a long document which takes some time to read.
    I'm a quick reader.
    It's their guidance to every national health service in the world on transgender health for when people change sex. Medical professionals in a range of fields as you know follow their guidance.
    People cannot change sex. This is an unassailable fact. Maybe you should do some reading yourself, on basic biology. Indeed if we separate sex from biology they still can't because according to you they're already the sex they are in their brain and mind.
    Your response was going well until you branded the scientists on the transgender issue as fantasists, quackery and having some dogma. Wpath has been around for decades, it has nothing to do with the recent conspiracy around being politically correct, pseudo-science, dogma, name that conspiracy theory etc!
    If they state that human beings can medically and biologically change gender then I don't care if they were around since the late medieval, it would still be a nonsense and indeed more understandable if they were around since than and holding onto old notions that reckoned flexible chimerism was real.
    What defines a man and a woman physically, some of the human race do not contain some of those characteristics you mention.
    Because of genetic or congenital or disease process driven faults. If I lose an arm in an unfortunate accident with a chainsaw this has no bearing on the fact that humans come with two arms as a basic fact.
    As for chromosomes. the 2,617 scientists say there is no actual genetic test for sex or gender so it's not really relevant in your definition.
    This is utter nonsense. While there is no test as yet for Transexuals, outside of Intersex individuals with genetic and developmental faults, which are testable BTW, human females are XX, human males are XY. This is a fact.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #758
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    2,617 scientists said it, not me.



    Which post was that, point to the link?

    One actual citation will do it Klaaaz, I’m not even looking for all 2,617.

    The question is quoted in the post - if you click on the little blue arrow thingie beside my name it’ll take you back to the post.


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    #759
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Oh there will be womb transplants into males and there will be pregnancies. Those pregnancies will be maintained with heavy loads of hormones. It won't be a consideration about what this might do to the developing foetus, so long as some transhumanist fetish is fulfilled. It will be called a human right. Just as a child was recently exclusively fed on milk induced from a male by serious doses of Domperidone. Who cares that that hormone is banned in many countries for its bad effects on the heart.

    Those males you speak of, the trans men have already had babies. Nothing to do with weird fetishes or whatever floats your boat.


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    #760
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Those males you speak of, the trans men have already had babies. Nothing to do with weird fetishes or whatever floats your boat.

    Is this not indisputable evidence to you that trans men are not the same as biological men??

    Because we all know that biological men can not gestate babies.


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    #761
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    One actual citation will do it Klaaaz, I’m not even looking for all 2,617.

    Where are your citations to refute the 2,617 scientists?
    Candamir wrote: »
    The question is quoted in the post - if you click on the little blue arrow thingie beside my name it’ll take you back to the post.

    In what context was your post about as you have posted alot in this thread. There is no blue arrow thingy beside the quote statement.


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    #762
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Where are your citations to refute the 2,617 scientists?
    Well I asked you first.
    Also my stance is accepted scientific fact since Crick met Watson, so any junior cert textbook should do.
    In what context was your post about as you have posted alot in this thread. There is no blue arrow thingy beside the quote statement.

    Ok here’s the full post copied and pasted

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by klaaaz View Post
    A medically transitioned trans woman is an adult human female, they have changed sex. Most companies have policies in place for people who change sex and if you disagree with their policies, you're free not to join that company.




    Really, they’re not. They are a Transwoman, not a biological woman. If Michael Jackson bleached his skin, would that have made him Caucasian?


    Quote:
    Medically transitioned trans women.....
    And how about trans women who have not medically (or surgically) transitioned? Do you also consider these adult females? How does an adult male become an adult female? What are the requirements in your opinion. Do they have to take some medical or surgical steps, or do they just have to think it? Serious question, I’m interested in your opinion.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by klaaaz View Post
    Perhaps a tigress?


    Blessed be the fruit! Praise be!




    Why the funny face? It seems to be a logical follow on from your thought process!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KikiLaRue View Post
    I wouldn't, but if I was your boss and worked at a company that had made a public commitment to LGBT rights, I would probably encourage you not to air those views in a public forum.



    You would encourage people to deny a biological reality for fear of being sacked? That doesn’t sound right to me.
    We can champion LGBT rights without denying biology.

    Weird that there isn’t a link for you.
    You must be on some kind of strange platform.


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    #763
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Is this not indisputable evidence to you that trans men are not the same as biological men??

    Because we all know that biological men can not gestate babies.

    The man got pregnant and had the baby. It happens quite a bit now, healthy kids reared and all.


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    #764
    rgodard80a
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭rgodard80a


    klaaaz wrote: »
    2,617 scientists said it, not me.?

    A geologist is a scientist. So would their opinion also count?
    Not all scientists are equal.

    The very fuzzy and subjective area of psychology falls under the umbrella of science but doesn't mean they have hard facts.
    Just papers categorizing a bunch of symptoms and feelings and throwing a label on it.


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    #765
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    The man got pregnant and had the baby. It happens quite a bit now, healthy kids reared and all.

    Wow. It’s amazing that more husbands don’t step up to the plate and share the childbearing more equally with their wives.
    Bloody men!


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    #766
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    rgodard80a wrote: »
    A geologist is a scientist. So would their opinion also count?
    Not all scientists are equal.

    The very fuzzy and subjective area of psychology falls under the umbrella of science but doesn't mean they have hard facts.
    Just papers categorizing a bunch of symptoms and feelings and throwing a label on it.

    You know, I wouldn’t mind if they actually said what he thinks they said, but they didn’t.
    But Klaaaz is a bit blinkered when it comes to trans issues


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    #767
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Those males you speak of, the trans men have already had babies. Nothing to do with weird fetishes or whatever floats your boat.

    Truly not wishing to confuse you further but given that the language has been so heavily distorted by ideology, it's tricky, but in this case lactation was induced in a biologically male transgender woman. The wombs of the future refer to biological males not transmen. Indeed a senior UK surgeon came out not so long ago to describe such procedures as a human right for transwomen and one that will be shortly realised.


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    #768
    rgodard80a
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭rgodard80a


    klaaaz wrote: »
    The man got pregnant and had the baby. It happens quite a bit now, healthy kids reared and all.

    A trans man got pregnant.... so they were a biological woman at birth with all the female plumbing. Got it.
    So if we dispense with the trans bit, the headline becomes "woman gave birth"... not quite headline news. Occam's razor.


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    #769
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Ok here’s the full post copied and pasted

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by klaaaz View Post
    A medically transitioned trans woman is an adult human female, they have changed sex. Most companies have policies in place for people who change sex and if you disagree with their policies, you're free not to join that company.

    Quote:
    Really, they’re not. They are a Transwoman, not a biological woman. If Michael Jackson bleached his skin, would that have made him Caucasian?

    Quote:
    Medically transitioned trans women.....
    And how about trans women who have not medically (or surgically) transitioned? Do you also consider these adult females? How does an adult male become an adult female? What are the requirements in your opinion. Do they have to take some medical or surgical steps, or do they just have to think it? Serious question, I’m interested in your opinion.


    I see you're stating self-id for gender? Those who do not medically transition have minds that are like female(gender is like between the ears as they say) but maintain male physical parts, that's the controversy in the UK over how to treat those people in law. There has been no controversy here in Ireland since self ID came into law in 2015. I don't think I gave a view on non-medically transitioned people in this thread.

    My opinion in that post was on those who change sex from male to female(an adult human female), they are known as transsexuals who have undergone hormone therapy and surgery.


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    #770
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Poppycock.

    If I employ someone and I find out that their political ideology of choice is that of ISIS, and that they advocate their views online regularly, I should be well within my right to terminate their employment.

    You should have literally no right whatsoever to take any action on any non-work related behaviour taken by an employee whilst off the clock, unless it directly infringes upon their ability to do their job.
    Free speech is a right. Free speech with no consequences is not a right.

    That is an oxymoron. If speech can have consequences, then by definition free speech does not exist.
    When you sign a contract with an employer, you agree to abide by their rules. If you break those rules, you might be terminated.

    There should be legal limits as to what can be demanded in such contracts, limited to things actually directly relevant to one's work.


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    #771
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Wow. It’s amazing that more husbands don’t step up to the plate and share the childbearing more equally with their wives.
    Bloody men!
    rgodard80a wrote: »
    A trans man got pregnant.... so they were a biological woman at birth with all the female plumbing. Got it.
    So if we dispense with the trans bit, the headline becomes "woman gave birth"... not quite headline news. Occam's razor.

    The person yes was a woman who then became a man. The man had the baby, it might sound odd to you but it has been happening for a few years now.


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    #772
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,127 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Zorya wrote: »
    Truly not wishing to confuse you further but given that the language has been so heavily distorted by ideology, it's tricky, but in this case lactation was induced in a biologically male transgender woman. The wombs of the future refer to biological males not transmen. Indeed a senior UK surgeon came out not so long ago to describe such procedures as a human right for transwomen and one that will be shortly realised.

    A "human right" that depends on other humans being harvested for their body parts. Given the way surrogacy is going it's hard not to predict women being exploited. It's ok though, they're only females. It's all a bit handmaid's tale isn't it?


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    #773
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    I see you're stating self-id for gender? Those who do not medically transition have minds that are like female(gender is like between the ears as they say) but maintain male physical parts, that's the controversy in the UK over how to treat those people in law. There has been no controversy here in Ireland since self ID came into law in 2015. I don't think I gave a view on non-medically transitioned people in this thread.

    My opinion in that post was on those who change sex from male to female(an adult human female), they are known as transsexuals who have undergone hormone therapy and surgery.


    I’m not really talking about self ID, or transsexuals.
    I’m interested in how a transwoman who has not medically (or surgically) transitioned becomes an adult female in your opinion. What are the requirements . Do they have to take some medical or surgical steps, or do they just have to think it?


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    #774
    rgodard80a
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭rgodard80a


    klaaaz wrote: »
    The person yes was a woman who then became a man. The man had the baby, it might sound odd to you but it has been happening for a few years now.

    Doesn't sound odd to me at all, it's the most natural thing in the world for a woman to have a baby.


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    #775
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    I’m not really talking about self ID, or transsexuals.
    I’m interested in how a transwoman who has not medically (or surgically) transitioned becomes an adult female in your opinion. What are the requirements . Do they have to take some medical or surgical steps, or do they just have to think it?

    A person who does not medically transition is under the self-ID umbrella, do you understand?

    You are contradicting yourself in the 2nd paragraph saying no medical/surgical and then saying medical/surgical requirements, which is it for the basis of your question?


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    #776
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    rgodard80a wrote: »
    Doesn't sound odd to me at all, it's the most natural thing in the world for a woman to have a baby.

    In case you didn't read it properly, the trans man who is a man had the baby. It's a natural thing to happen when men and women can have babies.


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    #777
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    In case you didn't read it properly, the trans man who is a man had the baby. It's a natural thing to happen when men and women can have babies.

    Bollocks. A man can't have a baby. This is absolutely ridiculous. Ask my arse if you think this is an acceptable stance to have. FFS. This is ridiculous


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    #778
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    A person who does not medically transition is under the self-ID umbrella, do you understand?

    You are contradicting yourself in the 2nd paragraph saying no medical/surgical and then saying medical/surgical requirements, which is it for the basis of your question?

    What I want to know is what steps, if any, does this person who is an adult male need to take to become an adult female, and is ‘thinking it’ enough.


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    #779
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    You should have literally no right whatsoever to take any action on any non-work related behaviour taken by an employee whilst off the clock, unless it directly infringes upon their ability to do their job.



    That is an oxymoron. If speech can have consequences, then by definition free speech does not exist.



    There should be legal limits as to what can be demanded in such contracts, limited to things actually directly relevant to one's work.

    I’ve clarified this already on the thread, you don’t have a strong understanding of your right to free speech and the limitations on that right.

    I recommend consulting the constitution or a junior cert CSPE book to learn more.


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    #780
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Bollocks. A man can't have a baby. This is absolutely ridiculous. Ask my arse if you think this is an acceptable stance to have. FFS. This is ridiculous

    It may not have been possible in your time how many decades ago but it is possible for a man to have a baby in the 21st century, i'm surprised that you never knew this.


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    #781
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    klaaaz wrote: »
    In case you didn't read it properly, the trans man who is a man had the baby. It's a natural thing to happen when men and women can have babies.

    I’ve been arguing your side for much of this thread, but this is where your argument really falls down.

    Either

    A) Trans men are men; biologically and mentally identical, neither can have babies

    B) Trans men retain some of their female biological attributes and are not the same as biological men. They can have babies.

    You can’t have it both ways, or doesn’t make sense.


This discussion has been closed.
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