"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

theteal · 07-05-2019 9:44am

Again I can't say I disliked it, another bunch of "but why. . . . ?" moments but I was entertained nonetheless. That being said, if this was a new program I'd most likely swerve it, it's just the already outlayed investment that keeps bringing me back.

I can't say I noticed the coffee cup, I was enjoying Dani's inner meltdown too much.

Why, oh why didn't Hollyoaks just push Cercei off the ledge when she was standing beside her??? She must have known she was doomed herself, she could have helped out a lot. Too easy???

Keyzer · 07-05-2019 9:44am

Mickeroo wrote: »

That was the bit that really annoyed me, she pulled out of her suicide run after they had missed when she was free to wipe out most of their fleet in one fly by....

I know, absolutely ridiculous.

And who made the absolutely idiotic decision to travel by sea to Kings Landing when you know Cersei has Euron commanding a fleet of ships? Euron, a complete madman and expert at naval combat. Possibly the greatest Naval warrior in all of Westeros. Why would anyone do this?

And how did Dani not see his ships from miles away? She's flying on a dragon hundreds of feet in the air. She would have seen them for miles.

I'm looking forward to the last two episodes just to see how bad this gets. I predict an absolutely moronic ending.

Then hopefully GRRM finishes the books before he dies and we can get to see how this story actually ends.

super_furry · 07-05-2019 9:48am

Well if nothing else, this last series has me interested in the books again.

I believed, and still believe that the show did a much better job of telling to story of A Feast for Crows which is still just a poorly written book, but Jesus they're undoing all their good work.

EP4 was the climax of some just terrible story-telling, pacing and plot points that just don't make any fecking sense. Daenerys is on top of a dragon out at sea, she has a viewing distance of hundreds of miles but can't see a big feck-off fleet hidden behind a rock? And that dragon is brought down by perfectly aimed super arrows.

Tired Gardener · 07-05-2019 10:03am

At least Kings Landing defenders know to mount their artillery on the walls and not in front of the walls.

A better episode than the previous, but that set the bar soap low that it isn't hard. Episode 2 of season 8 was and remains the best so far, and by a very large margin.

Jon is the worst pet owner, not even a 'good boy's and a head rub... Gilly gets a hug, Ghost gets ghosted.

PhuckHugh · 07-05-2019 10:06am

I just want it to end now it's gone so bad ... I'm not even sure Martin at his best can save the story now when he eventually releases the last book --- it's been utterly destroyed

TheIrishGrover · 07-05-2019 10:08am

Not a bad episode. Still think the Jamie/Brienne relationship was a bit forced. I always thought he simply respected her as a person and a warrior. She may have loved him but it was more respect from him.

F*cking hell though. NOBODY can keep a secret. I was half waiting for Arya to say to the Hound as they trotted off screen: "C'mere, can you keep a secret......."

The instant Missandei and Grey Worm held hands you knew she was more of a gonner than a cop two weeks from retirement.

The whole teleportation is just.... just assumed now? Cersie knew she was pregnant at the conference last season. Since then Jamie has ridden north from Kings Landing, the knight's King has taken down the wall, and walked to Winterfel, they have amassed armies and had a battle. They have again sailed south, had a sea battle and lost a dragon...... And Cersie is STILL so early in her pregnancy that Euron had to get the nod from Qyburn to confirm.

And they head back to Dragonstone for a chat (Admitadly, a brilliant chat)

The Good, The Bad and The Meh:

The Good:

Tyrion and Varys in Dragonstone. When reading the books I always thought that Varys really just wanted the strongest leader on the throne for when the walkers came. For him it wasn't personal. He just believed they were coming, knew that Robert was too week and wanted someone stronger. (Obviously the last chapter waaaay back in the last book seemed to suggest that he was a targaryan loyalist through and through but hey).
Every scene with Thormond.... Of course.
Bit conflicted about how they seem to be ramping up Dany's mental state. In some ways (Like the warroom scene) it's nicely done. Elsewhere it's a bit on the nose: "Oh, she be goin' CRAY-ZEEE"
Jamie's last scene with Brienne. Fantastic acting by both.

The Bad:

Teleportation
Euron is still a stupid addition character. He's infinitely better than the books but pretty pointless (But then I HATED the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines)

The Meh:

I know I'm probably in the minority but the whole "Adventures of Arya & The Hound" is smacking of fan service at this stage. I mean it's fun but c'mon. They practically freeze-framed them at the end of their scene

So liked that episode but, as with most people, I think they are just moving too fast. Would have been much better as one final 10 part season.

Mickeroo · 07-05-2019 10:09am

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

All things considered, This episode didnt bother me much,
however, it did serve to underscore how badly the writers have mis-handled the threat of the undead. From reading the books, I genuinely thought it was going to be a world-ender of a battle, with hundreds dying from starvation and cold alone, and that the undead would ravage the land, pushing the living further and further south, until they were finally defeated in a last gasp scenario.
Even the opening funeral scene, whilst the death toll was high, you'd have to say it was a more that acceptable loss considering the threat that was faced.

At the moment, it may as well have been a scuffle outside a nightclub for all the effect its had on the sunny south, the average citizen on the street is so blissfully unaware as to be laughable,

I always thought that last stand against the dead would KL too. Winterfell would get overrun and the survivors would retreat south. Cersei would be forced into an alliance of sorts but her madness would win out and she'd attempt to doom everyone with a powerplay as the dead are bearing down on them.

PhuckHugh · 07-05-2019 10:10am

leggo wrote: »

FFS, I watch and enjoy the episode. Then I log onto boards. My slight issues with the episode was Jon just abandoning Ghost and some ham-fisted dialogue (like spelling out a Hero's Journey). That's not being discussed and, instead, well...

awec I swear I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just every opinion you have here happens to be wrong. It's like you're actively trying to find plotholes and reaching to the point you look like you just don't understand what's happening.

Clearly going to kill Cersei because he realised it had to be done. The previous scene that was in had Sansa talk about wanting to see her execution, we're supposed to surmise that those words led to the decision he made in the next scene. If anything, I was frustrated with this for the opposite reason because they went through the motions of making it seem like he was changing sides, when it'd still be intriguing enough to have him state his mission up front. But I guess they didn't put the "volanquor" prophesy in the show so it will still be a twist to people who aren't obsessed like me. How did you not pick up on that though?

It's REALLY easy to capture people, especially untrained warriors, flailing around in the sea. They'd know Missandei. She was at the Dragon Pit meeting. They know she's potentially valuable as a hostage. She wasn't on deck because Greyworm told her to leave it, that would've hampered her time to escape while those who were could make it to shore because they could jump (like Tyrion). This is not a reach AT ALL.

Also, you realise that before you see something, you don't see it right? The scorpions were designed to kill dragons at range (i.e. before the dragons can burn them), that is their one specific purpose. It's an ambush. Euron anticipated they'd be travelling by sea, so anticipated their route, then came at them from a route that they wouldn't anticipate. As far as Dany is concerned, she's deviating from the expected tactic of storming the city as a united force, we saw her be talked out of this. But Cersei would know she doesn't want to burn people alive, she's talked in private with Tyrion remember, so she could anticipate this. Again, this is not a reach.

Genuinely confused what you see as the problem here. You've just decided to not accept this.

Bronn is a trained cut-throat who's skilled enough to be offered chests of gold up front and Riverrun. He's good at this. It's not a reach that he managed to get past the collective brain thrust that also let Arya into the castle last season ("You need better guards"), shortly after a battle that was preceded with a lot of outsiders coming in and out of the city, when a lot of the forces have been decimated. Bronn's skillset is up to that task. It's not a reach. Also, trusting Tyrion and Jaime's word has been a DISASTROUS tactic for Bronn, because they haven't given him what they promised yet (standard Lannister debt-paying strategy)! His frustration is earned, his tactic worked because he got offered something tangible at a specific time, and he's satisfied to deal with that knowing they know the consequences if they don't come through this time. None of this is an issue!

Why do people want to see conversations with information with people relaying information that we already know?! Did you need to see Sansa say "oh...okay..." or something? That is AWFUL writing. What mattered here is that Jon decided to defy Dany and tell them. Not having Bran say "Oh his dad is Rhaegar and his ma was Lyanna" isn't a plothole or inconsistency!

We saw Dothraki retreat after the initial retreat last week (remember they were running away??), it wasn't a secret that some survived. But they're totally diminished as a united force and a people. Did you want them to show every single person who retreated so you could do a head count like?! You're giving out for them not spoon-feeding you and leaving it to assume you're intelligent enough to get that seeing some Dothraki running away means "Not literally every person who was Dothraki died."

Both sides were suing for peace. Dany didn't kill Qyburn either, it's not the done thing to kill the envoy, Cersei is still operating under the pretence that she's a good queen who's protecting her people so the cold-blooded murder of an envoy (and her brother) would've risked that. Killing Tyrion would've also necessitated an immediate battle, which both wanted to avoid, hence them holding a treaty. Cersei doesn't want Dany to mount Drogon and start burning the city while she's standing on the wall, sure they have the scorpions but she'd rather not leave that to chance. She was also listening to him and considering his words, hence the tears in her eyes. If anything, killing Missandei was the flaw here, because that could've led to the same result. But it's more palatable that she kill a prisoner than an envoy because they were the terms she laid out if Dany didn't surrender.

How do you not understand ANY of this or have you just decided "Game of Thones = bad now" and, whatever they do, you're going to try spin it that way? I just don't think you like this show anymore man...

You seem to be an apologist for the show - no matter how dumb the story, you'll still defend it ... and there's a world of people online and offline that are p!ssed with how bad it's gone - it has turned into a comedy at this stage.

Tazzimus · 07-05-2019 10:14am

Mickeroo wrote: »

That was the bit that really annoyed me, she pulled out of her suicide run after they had missed when she was free to wipe out most of their fleet in one fly by....

This.
They weren't using bow and arrows to shoot at her; those things take a good 40+ seconds to reload, more than enough time to make some BBQ Ironborn. Instead, she just flies off, knowing they're vulnerable while they reload.

She could have taken out her biggest threat at sea reasonably easily..

Hyzepher · 07-05-2019 10:34am

Why is everyone assuming that Cersei is pregnant? We only have her word for it.

TheIrishGrover · 07-05-2019 10:59am

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why is everyone assuming that Cersei is pregnant? We only have her word for it.

That actually did occur to me too. And I believe you may be right (It would certainly help explain the teleportation). Tyrion suggested it also.

Ironically I think the main reason for believing she is not pregnant is that I don't think they would kill a pregnant character anymore.

Sure, Rob's missus was killed but then that whole scene was brutal: Extremely shocking and violent: The multiple stabbings, the closeup of Catelyn as she slits the throat of the innocent girl and then has her own throat cut brutally. Them sewing Rob's head to his direwolf.

Now look at Jorah and Dondarion going full-on Boromir: Stabbed, yes, but not nearly as graphically as earlier seasons. Messindei seen from a distance.

I don't think they would go back to the dark old days (Of 4 years ago

) Then you had extreme violence (Remeber The Hound practically cut Arya's friend in two) and nudity and general nastiness. Now you have dragon(s?), ninja girls and thousand-year-old immortal ice zombies killed by a single stab.

Again, it sounds harsher than I intended. I did enjoy the episode but it is quite formulaic these days as it comes towards the endgame: You can just see the very traditional Fantasy tropes writ large now.

Paddy Cow · 07-05-2019 11:17am

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why is everyone assuming that Cersei is pregnant? We only have her word for it.

She was told she'd have three children so either she's not pregnant, has a miscarriage or dies before the baby is born.

Paddy Cow · 07-05-2019 11:33am

RopeDrink wrote: »

It's like people missed the part where it was said they would meet to deliver the terms/messages, even if just to save face. That was no army, that's an emissary unity for delivering said terms. It was explained earlier.

Call it an emissary unit all you want, they were basically sitting ducks and it is totally out of character for Cersei not to annihilate them. Cersei couldn't give two sh!ts for protocol. Remember how she ripped up the King's letter and had Ned Stark's entire entourage murdered in front of the whole court? When Cersei feels threatened she decimates her enemies. Are you forgetting that she blew up the entire sept of Baelor to get rid of the High Sparrow and Tyrells, yet suddenly she's honour bound to not kill enemies within her reach?

I honestly don't know how people defend this sort of thing. Even the explanation earlier was weak "let's meet Cersei so that when I burn KL to a crisp and everyone suffers, I'll be able to say that I tried to be peaceful first". Tyrion knows that's not how it works. He was the best hand by a mile and saved the people of KL but no one knew it and never liked him. Dany burning KL and then saying "I tried to make peace first" isn't going to wash.

It's evident that the show runners have an endgame in sight and are simply using the characters to get there and are ruining them in the process. They've had two years to get it right and a colander has less holes than this.

NomadicGray · 07-05-2019 11:44am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

She was told she'd have three children so either she's not pregnant, has a miscarriage or dies before the baby is born.

This is the next plot twist, she is not the mother

2ndcoming · 07-05-2019 11:49am

It's still incredibly anxious viewing but the hardest part is the need to completely ignore the books or even common sense to a large degree. If you try to deduce most characters reasons for doing anything lately, 'because there's only two episodes left' comes up as the only likely reason, which is a shame.

Dany was easy enough to convince to wait it out last season and not attack Cersei, now she can't wait one minute despite a multitude of obvious reasons she should.

Cersei has mortal enemies all over Westeros, if the intention was to lay siege to Kings Landing then why would they not send ravens everywhere to enlist the rest? "The new prince in Dorne pledges his support", oh that's nice of him to offer but we won't actually ask his name or for any of his men. Tyrell loyalists, Baratheon bannermen, Tully bannermen, the rest of the Knights of the Vale, Yara and her fleet now that they won't need to retreat to the Iron Islands to escape the dead... Why would they not bother with that? 'Because there's two episodes left'.

Also, the fact that Varys and Sansa and Tyrion have gone straight back to Season 1 style scheming and plotting about the throne a day or two after Dany has essentially saved humanity just makes them all look like treacherous villains. They deserve some kind of Night King return twist because they're never going to learn or change.

Paddy Cow · 07-05-2019 11:49am

RopeDrink wrote: »

To those mentioning the Unsullied & Dothraki, you can clearly see numbers from both of those units re-entering the castle -- Dothraki (and Jorah) retreating after the initial charge, and Unsullied (who spent most of their time right at the gate to begin-with as the main shield). It is not hard to imagine at least half of each surviving, though one would be right to think that more Dothraki died - but not the Unsullied, you can clearly see about half of them being stomped over the course of that episode before going mostly off-screen.

At best I'd say 100 of each survived, and that's being generous. In the beginning we see a handful of Dothraki running past the army at Winterfell. We saw most of their swords extinguish as they died. Greyworm made the choice to sacrifice the Unsullied to save the retreat. We saw him close the trenches with the majority of them caught between the trench and undead.

Dany bought roughly 8,000 Unsullied. They've fought many times and lost a lot to the Sons of the Harpies. They seem to have a magic ability to re-spawn after every battle. Any who went into the sea after Euron's ambush should have drowned. But no. Not only did they manage to swim miles to Dragonstone wearing full armour, they also managed to save all their weapons.

I used to love Zena Warrior Princess as a kid. She got into trouble but you always knew she'd survive because she was the hero. It was formulamatic but highly entertaining. What made GOT different was that it wasn't formulamatic. It was more realistic in the sense that if you make mistakes and put yourself in dangerous situations, more than likely you paid with your life. Like Cersei said to Ned "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die". The last couple of seasons have seen characters is situations which should have killed them but they walk away unscathed eg Jon Snow. Falls into freezing water, in freezing temperatures yet his undead uncle turns up in the nick of time and whisks him away. The NK raised the undead and Jon is surrounded by 100's of wights trying to kill him yet he manages to slaughter them until Drogon rocks up and BBQ's the rest.

It's lost it's edge and it's at the point where I'm not gripping my seat anymore wondering what's going to happen. I'm more gritting my teeth and saying "ffs that was dumb".

check_six · 07-05-2019 11:55am

Keyzer wrote: »

I know, absolutely ridiculous.

And who made the absolutely idiotic decision to travel by sea to Kings Landing when you know Cersei has Euron commanding a fleet of ships? Euron, a complete madman and expert at naval combat. Possibly the greatest Naval warrior in all of Westeros. Why would anyone do this?

And how did Dani not see his ships from miles away? She's flying on a dragon hundreds of feet in the air. She would have seen them for miles.

Would it have made more sense if there had been, say, one or two ships with ballistae sitting in open sea, Daenerys impetuously decides to swoop in to destroy them, and then the "hidden" fleet lets loose from behind our favourite invisbility bestowing rocky outcrop? A few tweaks to the action should be able to make this sequence work.

Keyzer · 07-05-2019 12:09pm

check_six wrote: »

Would it have made more sense if there had been, say, one or two ships with ballistae sitting in open sea, Daenerys impetuously decides to swoop in to destroy them, and then the "hidden" fleet lets loose from behind our favourite invisbility bestowing rocky outcrop? A few tweaks to the action should be able to make this sequence work.

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

Tazzimus · 07-05-2019 12:14pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

At best I'd say 100 of each survived, and that's being generous. In the beginning we see a handful of Dothraki running past the army at Winterfell. We saw most of their swords extinguish as they died. Greyworm made the choice to sacrifice the Unsullied to save the retreat. We saw him close the trenches with the majority of them caught between the trench and undead.

Dany bought roughly 8,000 Unsullied. They've fought many times and lost a lot to the Sons of the Harpies. They seem to have a magic ability to re-spawn after every battle. Any who went into the sea after Euron's ambush should have drowned. But no. Not only did they manage to swim miles to Dragonstone wearing full armour, they also managed to save all their weapons.

I used to love Zena Warrior Princess as a kid. She got into trouble but you always knew she'd survive because she was the hero. It was formulamatic but highly entertaining. What made GOT different was that it wasn't formulamatic. It was more realistic in the sense that if you make mistakes and put yourself in dangerous situations, more than likely you paid with your life. Like Cersei said to Ned "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die". The last couple of seasons have seen characters is situations which should have killed them but they walk away unscathed eg Jon Snow. Falls into freezing water, in freezing temperatures yet his undead uncle turns up in the nick of time and whisks him away. The NK raised the undead and Jon is surrounded by 100's of wights trying to kill him yet he manages to slaughter them until Drogon rocks up and BBQ's the rest.

It's lost it's edge and it's at the point where I'm not gripping my seat anymore wondering what's going to happen. I'm more gritting my teeth and saying "ffs that was dumb".

I thought Greyworm said half when asked about who had survived, which seems a bit generous considering what just happened.

Paddy Cow · 07-05-2019 12:24pm

Keyzer wrote: »

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

Didn't you hear? Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet is the explanation of the show runner. She forgot about the Iron Fleet. You couldn't make it up.

Paddy Cow · 07-05-2019 12:26pm

Tazzimus wrote: »

I thought Greyworm said half when asked about who had survived, which seems a bit generous considering what just happened.

Greyworm says whatever the writers want him to say. We all saw the Unsullied lined up outside Winterfell and they were ordered by Greyworm to hold the retreat and then he sacrificed them. There is no way half survived when they were caught between the trenches and the undead and then we saw the undead surround the trenches. They wiped out the Unsullied but Dany needs an army so we have to pretend half survived.

Keyzer · 07-05-2019 1:31pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Didn't you hear? Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet is the explanation of the show runner. She forgot about the Iron Fleet. You couldn't make it up.

At the risk of succumbing to sarcasm, is there a link to this?

Update: Ignore... found it - https://observer.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-daenerys-details-david-benioff-db-weiss/

“Dany’s other enemies have not just been sitting still—they’ve been planning for the final battle,” Benioff said. “We saw in Season 7 that Qyburn had invented this giant, dragon-killing Scorpion. Qyburn went back to the drawing board and he made even larger, more powerful Scorpions. Dozens of them are now lining the walls of King’s Landing, and dozens more are lining the decks of the Iron Fleet.”

He continued, “While Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron’s forces, they certainly haven’t forgotten about her.”

Daenaerys forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron's forces? Not only Daenaerys but everyone else too? Jon, Varys, Tyrion et al. They all forgot about Euron's forces.

These guys are literally taking the audience for idiots now.

Liam O · 07-05-2019 1:43pm

Keyzer wrote: »

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

She had 2 dragons.

PhiloCypher · 07-05-2019 2:08pm

I completely get how overpowered the Dragons, the unsullied and Dothraki made Dany and completely understand their need to erode her strength before the final battle with Cersei. But the way they've gone about it have made an absolute mockery of the good guys.

*Out maneuvered by Jaime and lost the Tyrells.
*Out maneuvered by Euron and lost half the Greyjoy fleet along with Yara and Dorne.
*Out maneuvered by Euron again and lose the other half of the Greyjoy fleet at Casterly Rock.
*Out manoeuvred by Euron and lose a Dragon at Dragonstone.

Each of the above would be fine in isolation but together they have served to completely undermine the supposed good guys as capable leaders worthy of ruling the 7 kingdoms.

People seem to have no problem with the bad guys being tactically astute but apparently it's too much to ask that the good guys be too, you just get the "it's a Fantasy show not a military documentary" excuse. I'm not expecting to see complex military manoeuvres on the battlefield, just a hand wave, a brief scene of wooden and earthen palisades being made in the back ground of episodes 1&2, in ep 3 we'd see the Wights briefly held at the first one, the Dothraki led by Jorah sweeping back and forth trying to stem the breaches as the trebuchet rounds arc overhead. The barrier breaches, the Dothraki are overwhelmed and lose half their forces. The Wights reach the second barricade and are pelted with flaming arrows, the knights of the Vale sweep behind taking out those that make it over, before they too are overwhelmed and retreat. Next a system of arrow tip shaped trenches funnel the dead into narrow bottle necks where the unsullied and Northern forces concentrate their forces and the archers on the battlements can concentrate their fire. All of the above would serve to erode Danys forces without portraying them as complete tactical novices. As for this episode If Euron had occupied Dragonstone and placed his ballista on land you could excuse how Dany somehow managed to miss them and lose another Dragon. It all just smacks of making the good guys incompetent because the narrative requires it rather then them being out thought.

Keyzer · 07-05-2019 2:08pm

Liam O wrote: »

She had 2 dragons.

It's ok - Benioff was good enough to explain it to us idiots. She forgot about the Iron Fleet (see below).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoHDU0T44I

tommy2bad · 07-05-2019 2:25pm

This season has felt badly written from the start. Sure it ticked a lot of boxes for fans but the problem was it felt forced and driven by the need to wind it all up. this episode is the most glaring example of having stuff happen because next weeks ep needs it to, rather than because it's a consequence of stuff that already happened. Jamie returning to KL, Bronn being Bronn, The Hound off to Clegainbole. Danni turning paranoid and Sansa sceaming like she's the reincarnation of Littlefinger. All could have been done better and made more belivable given enough time to develope but they dont have time and are hoping to get away with shortcuts as long as they add some fanfic stuff. In fairness it's not going anywhere I didn't expect the books to go but it's doing so with a lot of shortcuts that leave me feeling cheated a bit.
Biggest mistake, imnsho, was ending the Night King threat too soon. Anything that comes after that is going to feel lesser and little more than tieing up loose ends.
Oh and the acting has gone downhill, Danni, Sansa and Cercie smirking, sneering and basically gurning their way through, shows how little respect the producers have for fantasy audiences if they are willing to let this pantomime level of acting in.
Other than that...... it was fine, the episode moved stuff towards the climax which 2 episodes from the end is all we can expect.

Sleepy · 07-05-2019 2:26pm

The story is now so rushed it feels like it's being told by a ten year old "and then the night king comes with all his zombies and they die cos Arya sneak attacks him with the Valerian steel dagger Bran gave her... and then Danys dragon gets killed from a giant crossbow Qyburn made for Theon's pirate uncle... and then... and then... and then..."

I loved the books (yes, even Feast). I had no problem over-looking the Dothraki hordes being represented by 20 extras on horseback crossing a ridge, the direwolves only being shown when absolutely necessary, ropey CGI etc for budget purposes. Trying to conclude this epic inside 15 episodes of television, however, has been a disastrous mistake. It's rushed, the writing has gotten very sloppy and it's become about style rather than substance.

It's telling how quiet GRRM has been on his blog about the season to date. One or two obligatory posts about the return of the season and a commercial tie in with Oreos. I'd say he's stewing at how bad some of the writing has become. Obviously, had he managed to finish the books in time, he could have helped see them come to life in the series so it's his own damn fault...

It's just saddening to see a series that blew the bloody doors off television's portrayal of fantasy shows with Baelor back in season 1 finish out as such a damp squib.

07-05-2019 2:47pm

awec wrote: »

You are trying to make excuses for why we weren't shown one of the biggest moments of the entire show.

At no stage did I think that I needed to see it. I did not need to see their OMG faces (or Tyrion, or Varys)

jebidiah · 07-05-2019 3:03pm

Jaime and Tyrion were in an inn, not in Winterfell. They showed the building from the outside before the scene.

I actually thought it was the Inn at the cross roads, and were were going to see Hotpie for some reason.

07-05-2019 3:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

At no stage did I think that I needed to see it. I did not need to see their OMG faces (or Tyrion, or Varys)

I have quite a few issues with recent episodes and the dip in quality, but I was fully expecting the cutaway before Jon/Bran told Arya and Sansa about Jon's parentage and don't really have a problem with it. We had already seen Jon and Bran deliver this news to characters in the show and the dramatic punch has been well-used by now. Sure, it's the reaction of Arya and Sansa's we wanted to see here, but I wasn't a bit surprised with the cutaway.

They might not have shown us Arya and Sansa hearing the news about Jon because we have already seen such scenes a few times...or because there could be something deeper yet to be revealed in a future episode like the Arya/Sansa long-con with Littlefinger in Season 7. The show does love these 'Gotcha!' moments in its latter days (See: Arya stealthing viewers/the NK, Euron stealthing viewers/Rheagal, Arya/Sansa stealthing viewers/Littlefinger)

Either way, we did at least get to see how it affected their actions or how it didn't change them at all. Sansa asked Tyrion 'Why her?' in relation to Dany, so clearly Jon's news didn't change Sansa's mind about Dany or deeply affect Sansa. She suggests to Tyrion 'what if there's someone better?'...that could be Jon for all we know. From what the show has shown us so far this season with "Jon has the better claim" from various characters, plus how Tyrion then goes on to to speak with Varys and list all the qualities Jon would have as ruler, you would assume that Sansa has Jon in mind as the 'someone better' she suggested to Tyrion.

As for Arya, she leaves Winterfell for KL to presumably carry on with her kill-list to avenge the fallen Starks, and she doesn't see herself ever coming back to Winterfell IMO because she reckons it will be a suicide mission. She is pragmatic and demonstrated that by telling Jon in the Godswood that she respects what he had to do with Dany, that they needed Dany and her dragons for the war...but still she doesn't trust Dany. I imagine that because Jon finds out that through no fault of his own that he is a Targ, well pragmatic Arya will trust Jon as long as he shows loyalty to the Starks as she reminded him earlier this season before hearing about his Targ lineage. We have been shown that 'Don't forget your loyalty' scene in the 'previously on' intro for at least two episodes so far this season, and things are (unfortunately) put in there because they are relevant to the story to come.

I wasn't bothered by the cutaway in the Godswood, and I like the scene we did get with 'The Last of the Starks' in the Godswood and the various scenes with Sansa and Arya in the aftermath.

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

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