"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

awec · 06-05-2019 11:09AM

The White Wolf wrote: »

I'm watching the post show featurette and they're explanation for how Dany got ambushed by Euron is that she forgot about the Iron Fleet.

That's literally what one of them said.

Even the most ardent supporter of what they're doing will admit that's utterly ****ing lazy from them.

She forgot about it despite it being mentioned in their strategy meeting right before...

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 11:11AM

leggo wrote: »

Because I understand that it's a TV show, not a documentary! :pac:

And it's not that big of a reach. I've explained ALL of the character motivations to you already. Of the flaws you found with that:

1. It's weird to describe a mountain as a 'big rock' but okay. Like "you imagining it's not that changes your entire point" weird.

2. Yes, I can totally accept that it's more difficult to hit something unsuspecting moving leisurely from the side than it is charging towards you at pace. I'm fine with Dany making a dumb mistake and acting irrationally given her 'child' had just died, I'd probably go for someone if they murdered my kid tbh. Tbh I would've liked if one of the arrows had grazed Drogon but I can live with it.

3. Who did you see loose an arrow and reload, give me a timestamp of where you saw that happen, or are you imagining that because you want to criticise? I saw a lot of boats, all with scorpions. Did you count the arrows in the sky to ensure that each boat shot one on the second try? Because it seems a more plausible tactic to not put all your eggs in one basket and hope to do all your damage with one round of shots. Then, if you miss, you've got a dragon coming right at you.

4. But they were flying over sea, Cersei and Euron didn't choose that they could only react to the hand they were dealt. And Euron is a navy commander. Your suggestion would be for them to allow the siege of King's Landing to happen because some comic book guy was at the back of the room and said "Uh actually guys, it's hard to shoot on a boat"? Methinks you may not be an effective military commander...

You entire argument is "it's a TV show so it doesn't have to make sense".

If that's the case then there is nothing at stake for any of the characters in the show because stuff happens "just because".

awec · 06-05-2019 11:14AM

leggo wrote: »

Because I understand that it's a TV show, not a documentary! :pac:

And it's not that big of a reach. I've explained ALL of the character motivations to you already. Of the flaws you found with that:

1. It's weird to describe a mountain as a 'big rock' but okay. Like "you imagining it's not that changes your entire point" weird.

2. Yes, I can totally accept that it's more difficult to hit something unsuspecting moving leisurely from the side than it is charging towards you at pace. I'm fine with Dany making a dumb mistake and acting irrationally given her 'child' had just died, I'd probably go for someone if they murdered my kid tbh. Tbh I would've liked if one of the arrows had grazed Drogon but I can live with it.

3. Who did you see loose an arrow and reload, give me a timestamp of where you saw that happen, or are you imagining that because you want to criticise? I saw a lot of boats, all with scorpions. Did you count the arrows in the sky to ensure that each boat shot one on the second try? Because it seems a more plausible tactic to not put all your eggs in one basket and hope to do all your damage with one round of shots. Then, if you miss, you've got a dragon coming right at you.

4. But they were flying over sea, Cersei and Euron didn't choose that they could only react to the hand they were dealt. And Euron is a navy commander. Your suggestion would be for them to allow the siege of King's Landing to happen because some comic book guy was at the back of the room and said "Uh actually guys, it's hard to shoot on a boat"? Methinks you may not be an effective military commander...

You've explained nothing really. You've said some stuff, but "explanation" is a bit of a stretch.

If they are behind the mountain, how did they hit the dragon?

Either they are:

1. Behind the mountain and out of sight, in which case they can't see the dragon
2. In plain view, so they can see the dragon, but then Dany bizarrely misses a huge fleet of ships right in front of her.

This of course ignoring that the arrow hit the dragon, powerfully enough to pierce dragon skin, powerful enough to make boats practically disintegrate but didn't alter the course of the dragon one bit? So much so that they were able to hit it spot on two more times.

It's a TV show, but when you break the plot like this it ruins the experience. The key to making people believe is consistency. A plot that makes some level of sense. It's a fantasy show, but the foundations are based on something that is relatively realistic. The super-accurate scorpion laden invisible fleet is a stretch beyond what most will accept. It doesn't fit the show.

What next? Grey Worm to throw his spear and hit Cersei between the eyes from half a mile away?

thomond2006 · 06-05-2019 11:21AM

Why did Dany decide to go to Dragonstone? I must have missed that detail.

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:21AM

lawlolawl wrote: »

You entire argument is "it's a TV show so it doesn't have to make sense".

If that's the case then there is nothing at stake for any of the characters in the show because stuff happens "just because".

So what you're saying is pedophilia should be legal? Wow dude. That's really weird...

That's what you just did to me there. You quoted a post with my own words then just made up something that I didn't say, then argued with it. You just had an argument with yourself in public dude.

I accept that TV shows have to use licence to get to satisfying end points because you know what happens in real life with complex political issues like the ones in this show? Tribunals. Elections. Long drawn out peace talks. And all of that makes for crap TV. So that licence, which GoT has used liberally since S1E1 when you loved it, is what gives us an entertaining show. I have issues with it just like you (how are we STILL not talking about Jon abandoning Ghost?!?!) but my objective when watching is to enjoy it. Then I'll talk about the parts of using that licence that led to my enjoyment being stopped. If I'm watching with the objective of trying to find the parts that wouldn't happen in the real world, then I'm not going to enjoy anything fictional. That's the standard people are holding this show to now. Someone literally said "Ugh it's just LOTR now"...as if LOTR wasn't a great series of books and movies that won Oscars! It's an impossible standard to hold anything to when LOTR is your standard for "Ugh..."

awec · 06-05-2019 11:23AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why did Dany decide to go to Dragonstone? I must have missed that detail.

It wasn't explained.

But Dragonstone is on the way to Kings Landing if coming from Winterfell, and is sort of close-ish so presumably she's just going to stop on the way.

In real terms, D+D couldn't have Dany arrive at Kings Landing with 2 dragons, and needed her to arrive at Kings Landing in a weakened state for plot purposes. Now she has lost 2 dragons, and the other one is useless, nothing more than a flying taxi.

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 11:27AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why did Dany decide to go to Dragonstone? I must have missed that detail.

She needed to be near water for Eurons stealth-fleet to murder one of her dragons with kickin' rad trickshots.

awec · 06-05-2019 11:30AM

leggo wrote: »

So what you're saying is pedophilia should be legal? Wow dude. That's really weird...

That's what you just did to me there. You quoted a post with my own words then just made up something that I didn't say, then argued with it. You just had an argument with yourself in public dude.

I accept that TV shows have to use licence to get to satisfying end points because you know what happens in real life with complex political issues like the ones in this show? Tribunals. Elections. Long drawn out peace talks. And all of that makes for crap TV. So that licence, which GoT has used liberally since S1E1 when you loved it, is what gives us an entertaining show. I have issues with it just like you (how are we STILL not talking about Jon abandoning Ghost?!?!) but my objective when watching is to enjoy it. Then I'll talk about the parts of using that licence that led to my enjoyment being stopped. If I'm watching with the objective of trying to find the parts that wouldn't happen in the real world, then I'm not going to enjoy anything fictional. That's the standard people are holding this show to now. Someone literally said "Ugh it's just LOTR now"...as if LOTR wasn't a great series of books and movies that won Oscars! It's an impossible standard to hold anything to when LOTR is your standard for "Ugh..."

Nobody is doing this.

People liked Game of Thrones because it was entertaining but also consistent and believable! Plot lines made sense, people could understand what was happening. It was truly excellent because people didn't know exactly what was coming, but once it happened it was immediately apparent why. Character development was consistent.

It has lost much of that now. Things happen, and they don't make any sense. There are events that are obvious plot mechanisms, purely to get someone to a certain place, or into a certain state.

I think it's a lot to do with pacing, and a lot to do with the writing. The last 2 seasons have been much faster, and we've lost a lot of nuance and a lot of detail. Things just happen now, with no regard for past events or the lore.

It's like they're writing it backwards. They know where they want to get to, and aren't afraid to take shortcuts to get there. The problem is the plot suffers for this.

2ndcoming · 06-05-2019 11:30AM

awec wrote: »

For what it's worth, on imdb this episode is currently the lowest rated episode in the entire 8 seasons. Only episode below 8/10. Granted, it'll probably go up a bit, but it tells a story.

It tells a lot more of a story about modern society than about the quality of that episode tbh.

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:32AM

awec wrote: »

You've explained nothing really. You've said some stuff, but "explanation" is a bit of a stretch.

If they are behind the mountain, how did they hit the dragon?

Either they are:

1. Behind the mountain and out of sight, in which case they can't see the dragon
2. In plain view, so they can see the dragon, but then Dany bizarrely misses a huge fleet of ships right in front of her.

This of course ignoring that the arrow hit the dragon, powerfully enough to pierce dragon skin, powerful enough to make boats practically disintegrate but didn't alter the course of the dragon one bit? So much so that they were able to hit it spot on two more times.

It's a TV show, but when you break the plot like this it ruins the experience. The key to making people believe is consistency. A plot that makes some level of sense. It's a fantasy show, but the foundations are based on something that is relatively realistic. The super-accurate scorpion laden invisible fleet is a stretch beyond what most will accept. It doesn't fit the show.

What next? Grey Worm to throw his spear and hit Cersei between the eyes from half a mile away?

You just will not settle for anything that doesn't spoon-feed you, will you? TV shows, posts on boards, nobody could argue with your consistency anyway. Okay fine, let's do this.

If you and I are working in an office, for example, one day I might decide, "I'm going to play a trick on awec and throw a balled up piece of paper in his face. He hates banter but I'll find it funny", then wait around a corner for you to come walking by at a rough time I knew you will.

Now, you would be correct to assume that your vision of me would be equally possible in this scenario. Being around a corner does not making me invisible, no argument there. However you, not suspecting me and me not appearing in your direct eyeline, without any hint that I may be waiting because I've kept my nefarious schemes a secret from you, are at a distinct disadvantage. It is entirely plausible that, in the split second before you see me, I am able to fire my balled up piece of paper as planned.

This may anger you, because you hate banter as established, so you may try and attack me in response and come at me at pace. While my positioning is now better because you're now directly in front of me, the element of surprise is gone and thus is my advantage. I would have to ball up another piece of paper and fire it at you, but you're also now moving quite quickly making that difficult. However, I have anticipated this. So I have agreed that, should you attack, my mates would all fire paper at you in an effort to get you to retreat. They may hit you, they may not. But my initial objective was achieved and, in this case, I would be the victor.

awec · 06-05-2019 11:34AM

leggo wrote: »

You just will not settle for anything that doesn't spoon-feed you, will you? TV shows, posts on boards, nobody could argue with your consistency anyway. Okay fine, let's do this.

If you and I are working in an office, for example, one day I might decide, "I'm going to play a trick on awec and throw a balled up piece of paper in his face. He hates banter but I'll find it funny", then wait around a corner for you to come walking by at a rough time I knew you will.

Now, you would be correct to assume that your vision of me would be equally possible in this scenario. Being around a corner does not making me invisible, no argument there. However you, not suspecting me and me not appearing in your direct eyeline, without any hint that I may be waiting because I've kept my nefarious schemes a secret from you, are at a distinct disadvantage. It is entirely plausible that, in the split second before you see me, I am able to fire my balled up piece of paper as planned.

This may anger you, because you hate banter as established, so you may not try and attack me in response and come at me at pace. While my positioning is now better because you're now directly in front of me, the element of surprise is gone and thus is my advantage. I would have to ball up another piece of paper and fire it at you, but you're also now moving quite quickly making that difficult. However, I have anticipated this. So I have agreed that, should you attack, my mates would all fire paper at you in an effort to get you to retreat. They may hit you, they may not. But my initial objective was achieved and, in this case, I would be the victor.

What?

In the split second before I see you?

You know Euron's ships are sailboats, right? He wasn't in a motorised dingy. You are suggesting that the Iron Fleet rounded that mountain, aimed and shot SO FAST that Dany, nor the entirety of her fleet, saw them before it happened?

Arya has nothing on Euron Greyjoy...

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:37AM

awec wrote: »

What?

In the split second before I see you?

You know Euron's ships are sailboats, right? He wasn't in a motorised dingy. You are suggesting that the Iron Fleet rounded that mountain, aimed and shot SO FAST that Dany, nor the entirety of her fleet, saw them?

Who said they rounded the mountain? Again this is a scenario you imagined to make your criticism valid. They anticipated she was coming and knew what route she'd have to take, presumably by looking at a map (are you going to criticise them for not showing this map looking exercise?). They were waiting. Remember? Like me in the office? I had that ball of paper **** planned for weeks man, you walk past the water cooler at that time every day!

ERG89 · 06-05-2019 11:39AM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Waiting for someone to try justify why that coffee cup was shown..... :pac: :pac: :pac:

awec · 06-05-2019 11:40AM

leggo wrote: »

Who said they rounded the mountain? Again this is a scenario you imagined to make your criticism valid. They anticipated she was coming and knew what route she'd have to take, presumably by looking at a map (are you going to criticise them for not showing this map looking exercise?). They were waiting. Remember? Like me in the office? I had that ball of paper **** planned for weeks man, you walk past the water cooler at that time every day!

The show did, when it showed them in front of Dany's fleet?

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:41AM

awec wrote: »

The show did, when it showed them in front of Dany's fleet?

Nope. It showed Dany turning towards them. The arrows hit Rhaegal from the side. Remember she looked left?

awec · 06-05-2019 11:42AM

leggo wrote: »

Nope. It showed Dany turning towards them. The arrows hit Rhaegal from the side. Remember she looked left?

Er, no. There was a shot of Tyrion looking out on the Iron fleet, directly in front of him.

awec · 06-05-2019 11:45AM

You can see how they were missed, with them being so inconspicuous and all, hidden behind that mountain. Especially from the air, when you have two dragons that can spot prey on the ground but not an entire fleet of ships!

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:47AM

awec wrote: »

Er, no. There was a shot of Tyrion looking out on the Iron fleet, directly in front of him.

You need to watch again. I literally just did. One arrow went through Rhaegal's neck and out the other side. That's not physically possible if firing head on.

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:47AM

awec wrote: »

You can see how they were missed, with them being so inconspicuous and all, hidden behind that mountain. Especially from the air, when you have two dragons that can spot prey on the ground but not an entire fleet of ships!

Yep and he went to the side of the ship, not the top. Watch it again dude.

awec · 06-05-2019 11:49AM

leggo wrote: »

Yep and he went to the side of the ship, not the top. Watch it again dude.

:pac:

You're going to blunt your shovel if you keep this up.

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:51AM

awec wrote: »

:pac:

You're going to blunt your shovel if you keep this up.

Oh man, you're being so arrogant for someone so wrong. :pac:

You realise Tyrion came out on deck and turned left to look at them to get that shot? That doesn't mean they were coming at him from head on, he just turned left. He's not Derek Zoolander. :pac:

It's not physically possible to shoot at a dragon head on and for that arrow to go through their neck.

awec · 06-05-2019 11:55AM

leggo wrote: »

Oh man, you're being so arrogant for someone so wrong. :pac:

You realise Tyrion came out on deck and turned left to look at them to get that shot? That doesn't mean they were coming at him from head on, he just turned left. :pac:

It's not physically possible to shoot at a dragon head on and for that arrow to go through their neck.

You're trying to turn this into a discussion about the exact angle of attack for the Iron fleet in relation to Tyrion, as if that's actually important, rather than discuss the underlying issue.

How do you propose the entirety of Dany's fleet, plus Dany herself, plus her two dragons, didn't see those ships? How did that fleet, clearly in open water, in plain view, launch a surprise attack? Since your idea that they were hidden behind the mountain is a load of bollocks. Or are you going to suggest that the Iron fleet is so fast that it sailed right around that crop of land, and fired three shots into a dragon, before anyone noticed?

leggo · 06-05-2019 11:57AM

awec wrote: »

You're trying to turn this into a discussion about the exact angle of attack for the Iron fleet in relation to Tyrion, as if that's actually important, rather than discuss the underlying issue.

How do you propose the entirety of Dany's fleet, plus Dany herself, plus her two dragons, didn't see those ships?

"The angle doesn't matter," he says after showing a screenshot which he thought proved his point about the angle. Not the words of someone's who's just realised he's right anyway...

I've explained the rest already man. It's not difficult to understand, for most anyway.

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 11:58AM

awec wrote: »

You're trying to turn this into a discussion about the exact angle of attack for the Iron fleet in relation to Tyrion, as if that's actually important, rather than discuss the underlying issue.

How do you propose the entirety of Dany's fleet, plus Dany herself, plus her two dragons, didn't see those ships? Since your idea that they were hidden behind the mountain is a load of bollocks.

Did you not see the post show bit with the one writer saying they simply forgot about the Iron Fleet?

They probably just assumed those heavily armed warships were in fact merchant boats delivering cheesewheels to Dragonstone.

awec · 06-05-2019 11:58AM

leggo wrote: »

"The angle doesn't matter," he says after showing a screenshot which he thought proved his point about the angle. Not the words of someone's who's just realised he's right anyway...

I've explained the rest already man. It's not difficult to understand, for most anyway.

Again, you are operating under the assumption that you've explained something, rather than just post.

"Explain" it for us all again please.

fitz · 06-05-2019 11:58AM

awec wrote: »

She forgot about it despite it being mentioned in their strategy meeting right before...

I've got no problem buying it tbh. She's an idiot who thinks her claim to the throne and her dragons make her righteous and dismissive of the reality. She doesn't have the imagination to see ahead of people. She might not have liked it, but Sansa was 100% right.

I've no issue with the ambush, fairly easy for the Iron Born to have lookouts posted who signal back in time for the boats to come out just in time. These guys are naval warriors, I'm ok with them being able to pull off an ambush.
I'd have preferred if Drogon had taken some damage from all the shots fired at him, but he's flying faster at that point, rather than gliding, so I'm not gonna get to miffed about that.

So yeah, I was annoyed too, but not at the writers. I was annoyed at Dany being an arrogant dope. I just don't see that as out of character for her at all.

leggo · 06-05-2019 12:01PM

Stop, man. Below is where I explained how it happened. You came back to this saying that that couldn't be the case because the Iron Fleet were attacking from head on. That was shown to be nonsense because the concept of turning left proved to be your undoing. I cannot keep spoon-feeding you, the show can't, you just need to either keep up or shut up.

leggo wrote: »

You just will not settle for anything that doesn't spoon-feed you, will you? TV shows, posts on boards, nobody could argue with your consistency anyway. Okay fine, let's do this.

If you and I are working in an office, for example, one day I might decide, "I'm going to play a trick on awec and throw a balled up piece of paper in his face. He hates banter but I'll find it funny", then wait around a corner for you to come walking by at a rough time I knew you will.

Now, you would be correct to assume that your vision of me would be equally possible in this scenario. Being around a corner does not making me invisible, no argument there. However you, not suspecting me and me not appearing in your direct eyeline, without any hint that I may be waiting because I've kept my nefarious schemes a secret from you, are at a distinct disadvantage. It is entirely plausible that, in the split second before you see me, I am able to fire my balled up piece of paper as planned.

This may anger you, because you hate banter as established, so you may try and attack me in response and come at me at pace. While my positioning is now better because you're now directly in front of me, the element of surprise is gone and thus is my advantage. I would have to ball up another piece of paper and fire it at you, but you're also now moving quite quickly making that difficult. However, I have anticipated this. So I have agreed that, should you attack, my mates would all fire paper at you in an effort to get you to retreat. They may hit you, they may not. But my initial objective was achieved and, in this case, I would be the victor.

awec · 06-05-2019 12:04PM

leggo wrote: »

Stop, man. Below is where I explained how it happened. You came back to this saying that that couldn't be the case because the Iron Fleet were attacking from head on. That was shown to be nonsense because the concept of turning left proved to be your undoing. I cannot keep spoon-feeding you, the show can't, you just need to either keep up or shut up.

Listen man, your wee story about you walking around a corner man, does not compare to an entire fleet of sailboats, man.

A boat on the water does not have the maneuverability or agility of a person standing on land. Man.

leggo · 06-05-2019 12:08PM

awec wrote: »

Listen man, your wee story about you walking around a corner man, does not compare to an entire fleet of sailboats, man.

A boat on the water does not have the maneuverability or agility of a person standing on land. Man.

Maybe take a minute and process the fact that everything you thought about the ambush has been proven wrong and re-calibrate rather than going around in circles with me. You're getting passive aggressive and childish now with the "man" stuff. Chill. People can see this tantrum. You were wrong online, that's not the end of the world. You will survive this.

The White Wolf · 06-05-2019 12:08PM

leggo wrote: »

Oh man, you're being so arrogant for someone so wrong. :pac:

You realise Tyrion came out on deck and turned left to look at them to get that shot? That doesn't mean they were coming at him from head on, he just turned left. He's not Derek Zoolander. :pac:

It's not physically possible to shoot at a dragon head on and for that arrow to go through their neck.

Given you're the one who threw a wobbler about logging on to see people didn't agree with your take on the episode, it's a bit much to accuse someone else of being arrogant.

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

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