Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

AugustusMinimus

My asssessment of the situation from a few years ago:

So, the M18/M17 scheme is now open and there is talk that the traffic and delays at both the Coolagh Roundabouts and the Martin Roundabout has increased further, with more traffic now landing into Galway this way.

I'm in Galway a few times a year and so fortunately, I don't have to experience the shocking traffic that is there.

Simply looking at a map of Galway highlights some huge issues in regards to traffic accessing the city.

1. Galway and Dublin share one thing in common. One half of the city lies flat to the sea, inaccessible by road. In Dublin's case, there is an M50 already in place. In addition, the traffic coming into Dublin is spread evenly in a half circle entering the city. This is the one thing that saves Dublin. The one place this breaks down badly is with the N7, where too much traffic is funnelled down one artery.

Galway is different though. The vast, vast majority of traffic enters the city from the east and north east. This doesn't help the city at all. Cork, Limerick and Waterford don't have this issue due to topography of the cities.


2. Road density in the east of Galway City. This truly is shambolic. The style of development in Ireland from the 1960s onwards has been to build huge housing estates without improving road infrastructure to handle the increased traffic. Prior to this, most city development was done using smaller estates and a grid system. Now its build estates and whatever existing boreens exist will do. Just look at the map below. I've highlighted in red where no movement can happen between the east and the city centre.



Its an absolute cluster****. Hell, even the road from Oranmore dumps out onto the Old Dublin Road causing big trouble at that junction. The lack of routes into the city centre means everything and I mean everything is funnelled down 2 routes which simply cannot take it.


3. At grade roundabouts. Galway must have more at-grade roundabouts per capita than any city on earth. Why so many. And why so many which lead into traffic lights. It inevitably leads to traffic queuing from lights, back onto these roundabouts which then completely block all movements at these roundabouts. Maddening.


4. There are only 4 bridges across the river Corrib. Is there scope for instance for another bridge down by the docks ?



Overall, I'm not sure that the bypass will alleviate any of these issues. Yes, it will be another river crossing and it will take traffic out of the city which is going East - West and visa versa. The only other benefit I can see is for it to act a distributor for the M6. However, this will be of an extremely limited benefit as these routes are already clogged. The issue of a lack of road density and capacity heading into Galway city is still a much bigger issue IMO.


Anyone who reads my posts know I'm pro roads. However, I have my doubts about the Galway bypass scheme. It is currently costs at €600m. I think the money could be better spent on a small schemes, including public transport. Would a park and ride from the east of the city help. Why not a park and ride utilising the existing rail infrastructure ? Given the lack of road density and field after field of undeveloped land in the east of the city, I'd imagine some form of BRT wouldn't be too expensive either ?

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

There is one universal principle, and that is geometry. It doesn't matter where you look, the result will always be the same: the private car is the least efficient use of finite road space. Any sustainable solution to urban traffic and transport cannot avoid addressing this basic fact.

11 river crossings in the Freiburg public transport network. It's a city rather comparable to Cork in topology (river splitting the city to southern and northern halves) and size.

You'll never fix Galway traffic with 1 proper bridge over the Corrib.

Ruhanna

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

My asssessment of the situation from a few years ago:

So, the M18/M17 scheme is now open and there is talk that the traffic and delays at both the Coolagh Roundabouts and the Martin Roundabout has increased further, with more traffic now landing into Galway this way.

I'm in Galway a few times a year and so fortunately, I don't have to experience the shocking traffic that is there.

Simply looking at a map of Galway highlights some huge issues in regards to traffic accessing the city.

1. Galway and Dublin share one thing in common. One half of the city lies flat to the sea, inaccessible by road. In Dublin's case, there is an M50 already in place. In addition, the traffic coming into Dublin is spread evenly in a half circle entering the city. This is the one thing that saves Dublin. The one place this breaks down badly is with the N7, where too much traffic is funnelled down one artery.

Galway is different though. The vast, vast majority of traffic enters the city from the east and north east. This doesn't help the city at all. Cork, Limerick and Waterford don't have this issue due to topography of the cities.

2. Road density in the east of Galway City. This truly is shambolic. The style of development in Ireland from the 1960s onwards has been to build huge housing estates without improving road infrastructure to handle the increased traffic. Prior to this, most city development was done using smaller estates and a grid system. Now its build estates and whatever existing boreens exist will do. Just look at the map below. I've highlighted in red where no movement can happen between the east and the city centre.

Its an absolute cluster****. Hell, even the road from Oranmore dumps out onto the Old Dublin Road causing big trouble at that junction. The lack of routes into the city centre means everything and I mean everything is funnelled down 2 routes which simply cannot take it.

3. At grade roundabouts. Galway must have more at-grade roundabouts per capita than any city on earth. Why so many. And why so many which lead into traffic lights. It inevitably leads to traffic queuing from lights, back onto these roundabouts which then completely block all movements at these roundabouts. Maddening.

4. There are only 4 bridges across the river Corrib. Is there scope for instance for another bridge down by the docks ?

Overall, I'm not sure that the bypass will alleviate any of these issues. Yes, it will be another river crossing and it will take traffic out of the city which is going East - West and visa versa. The only other benefit I can see is for it to act a distributor for the M6. However, this will be of an extremely limited benefit as these routes are already clogged. The issue of a lack of road density and capacity heading into Galway city is still a much bigger issue IMO.

Anyone who reads my posts know I'm pro roads. However, I have my doubts about the Galway bypass scheme. It is currently costs at €600m. I think the money could be better spent on a small schemes, including public transport. Would a park and ride from the east of the city help. Why not a park and ride utilising the existing rail infrastructure ? Given the lack of road density and field after field of undeveloped land in the east of the city, I'd imagine some form of BRT wouldn't be too expensive either ?

The M17 is doing what all such schemes do: generating more car traffic. It has not alleviated congestion around Claregalway in particular, and there are already reports of significantly increased traffic in certain areas.

https://connachttribune.ie/motorway-opening-sees-25-traffic-increase-on-rural-road-025/

No surprise there, but of course the people clamouring for more motorways don't care about such outcomes and perhaps even see more car traffic as inherently a good thing.

Looking at a map only tells a small part of the story. You also have to look at society, which is a multidimensional type of geography. There is far far more to transport planning that just moving boxes from A to B, which is how road engineers typically see things.

Dublin has not been saved by the M50. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108558362&postcount=2934

"The vast, vast majority of traffic enters the city from the east and north east." What is your source for that? What are the actual figures?

"No movement can happen". What does that mean exactly?

Galway City and County are badly planned, that's for sure. Now the same people who made that mess, and who have waited 25 years for a "bypass" to rescue them from their own inaction and stupidity, are the same people who are planning (another) ring road so that they can continue where they left off. We cannot rely on the people who caused the problem to solve the problem, when they are showing no signs of any new thinking.

Oranmore is just one car-dependent town decanting large volumes of car traffic *into* Galway City. Let's not forget that 40% of car trips start and end on the same side of the river, that 3% of car all trips (2012 baseline data) are actually bypassing the city, and that around half of all Galway residents live c. 5 km or less from work or education (Smarter Travel plan, 2009)

The core problem is an extreme level of car dependence. The roundabouts, on the west side of the city at any rate, are not blocked when the schools are closed. Why do you suppose that is? Galway's roundabouts are also very dangerous and intimidating for people who walk or cycle, so many people avoid walking or cycling for that very reason. Result: more cars on the road. Galway's junctions, controlled and uncontrolled, also have very little in the way of bus or bicycle priority measures. Result: more cars on the road.

Is the National Transport Authority even measuring the effects of buses and bikes on junction capacity?

You know this general subject matter well: can you point to any reported traffic model which gives details of junction throughput using different proportions of single-occupant cars, multi-occupant cars, buses, bikes and pedestrian traffic?

4. Some people who were opposed to the Outer Bypass, and are now opposed to the Ring Road, also believe that another bridge would be beneficial. That's a very interesting perspective, and is worth debating. However, we have to come back to first principles before demanding the construction of any new infrastructure for car traffic: is the existing infrastructure being used efficiently, and if not how can it be made to work? The fact of the matter is that none of the existing bridges has bus priority measures and there is no orbital bus service using the Quincentenary Bridge. We haven't even *tried* to develop such measures over the past two or three decades, so we can't claim that the alternatives don't work.

The proposed road is not a bypass. 3% of total traffic is bypassable, remember, and 40% of all car trips start and end on the same side. It's an outer relief road, intended to provide extra road space for two things: (1) taking some of the traffic off the existing ring road, and (2) opening the way for new commercial and residential development, which will also generate more car traffic, just the same as happened with the first ring road and the development that came in its wake. Deja vu all over again.

The projected cost of the N6GCCR recently went up to €650 million, if Galway Bay FM is to be believed. The challenge with Park & Ride is scale, perhaps? 19000 cars, most of them single-occupant, enter the city from the county every morning. Just for argument's sake, if you wanted to take out 20% of those (say 4000 cars) what area of P&R surface would be required?

€650 million would buy an awful lot of infrastructure for public transport, cycling and walking, but the Government has its priorities entirely skewed in the other direction. Sean Kyne TD argues that the far higher expenditure on motorways is purely because the engineering is more complex. Bullsh1t. It's all about what they consider to be important. Public transport and active travel in Galway are not considered important enough to be (a) considered first and (b) given the lion's share of funding.

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

€650 million would buy an awful lot of infrastructure for public transport, cycling and walking, but the Government has its priorities entirely skewed in the other direction. Sean Kyne TD argues that the far higher expenditure on motorways is purely because the engineering is more complex. Bullsh1t. It's all about what they consider to be important. Public transport and active travel in Galway are not considered important enough to be (a) considered first and (b) given the lion's share of funding.

What do you suggest? Specifically.

marno21

It's also important to note that the Ring Road is part of the Galway City Transport Project, which also has BusConnects Galway included. BusConnects will provide more bus and cycle infrastructure, however the plans are delayed (they were meant to be published in September).

BusConnects is allocated €200m in the National Development Plan.

McGiver

marno21 wrote: »

It's also important to note that the Ring Road is part of the Galway City Transport Project, which also has BusConnects Galway included. BusConnects will provide more bus and cycle infrastructure, however the plans are delayed (they were meant to be published in September).

BusConnects is allocated €200m in the National Development Plan.

Do we know the details of what the plan is?

marno21

McGiver wrote: »

Do we know the details of what the plan is?

All details published to date are in this thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057881168

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

What do you suggest? Specifically.

• Reversal of funding allocation, ie majority to public transport etc
• Orbital bus service, as per Transport Unit Business Plan 2008, ideally BRT
• Network of of bus lanes
• Bus priority measures on all key junctions
• Park & Ride on city periphery and in county towns
• Cycle superhighways on key routes
• Cycle priority measures on all key routes
• Pedestrian priority crossings wherever needed
• Removal of parking spaces, year by year, with targets to be met
• Workplace parking levy
• Feasibility study into use of congestion charging
• Ban on free parking
• Car ban around schools
• School travel plans
• Workplace travel plans
• Free buses as a stimulus
• Financial incentives for car pooling
• Financial incentives for cycling to work
• Financial disincentives for driving to work
• Modal shift targets for local authority, with incentives/penalties as required

Just a few ideas off the top of my head...

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

Reversal of funding allocation, ie majority to public transport etc

Not gonna happen in 1.5 cars per capita setup. Galway is getting €200m for public transport and other modes of transport. Somehow linked to the €600m for the Galway North Motorway (let's call it what it is in reality )

Ruhanna wrote:

Orbital bus service, as per Transport Unit Business Plan 2008, ideally BRT

Orbital/circular routes are desperately needed, fully agree. But What's this obsession with BRT and buses? Unless they are electric, I'm against as they are noisy, polluting, vibrating disgusting machines. BRT is not a silver bullet, in fact it's just a buzzword, very few cities in Europe rely on this. Why not trams?

Ruhanna wrote:

Network of of bus lanes

Where will you put them? I don't see the required space.

Ruhanna wrote:

Bus priority measures on all key junctions

What do you mean by priority measures? I'm from 500k City in Europe and we don't have anything like that, buses flows fine because the road throughput is decent. Fix the throughput and you don't need priority measures.

Ruhanna wrote:

Park & Ride on city periphery and in county towns

Agreed. But then the bust must come within 10 minutes, not 30 minutes. BE aren't able to deliver this kind of schedule and Galway traffic doesn't allow it either.

Ruhanna wrote:

Cycle superhighways on key routes

What is a superhighway? For whom? Galway isn't Copenhagen, the population is tiny, even if you got 10% people commuting on bike, you don't need highways, decent cycle paths would be more than enough!

Ruhanna wrote:

Cycle priority measures on all key routes

Not sure what you mean exactly (and I'm a cyclist), but advance boxes are good idea.

Ruhanna wrote:

Pedestrian priority crossings wherever needed

What's a priority crossing? What strikes me in Galway (and generally Ireland) is the marked absence of under- and over-passes for pedestrians. I think these are needed.

Ruhanna wrote:

Removal of parking spaces, year by year, with targets to be met

Set and enforced by whom?

Ruhanna wrote:

Workplace parking levy

Collected by whom?

Ruhanna wrote:

Feasibility study into use of congestion charging

Galway is too tiny for congestion charges. Better do a feasibility study on pedestrianisation and removal of personal car traffic from some areas of the town.

Ruhanna wrote:

Ban on free parking

Is there any? Where?

Ruhanna wrote:

Car ban around schools

How far? I haven't seen/heard of any city with this in practise. Unless you mean no parking, that is debatable and probably possible.

Ruhanna wrote:

School travel plans

For sure, but who will pay and are the buses going to fly to the get kids to school on time?

Ruhanna wrote:

Workplace travel plans

Paid by whom? By private businesses? Not going to happen.

Ruhanna wrote:

Free buses as a stimulus

No. There's no city in Europe that would have done this. Generally, anything free is crappy, is abused and not is not given value by the people.

Ruhanna wrote:

Financial incentives for car pooling

Who pays it and how it's targeted?

Ruhanna wrote:

Financial incentives for cycling to work

Paid by whom? By the employers?

Ruhanna wrote:

Financial disincentives for driving to work

That smells like a socialism and is quite a bit restrictive. You can't punish people for using their cars to commute in this way.

Ruhanna wrote:

Modal shift targets for local authority, with incentives/penalties as required

Agreed. But who would set them and enforce them? Is it legal and/or constitutional?

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

It's also important to note that the Ring Road is part of the Galway City Transport Project, which also has BusConnects Galway included. BusConnects will provide more bus and cycle infrastructure, however the plans are delayed (they were meant to be published in September).

BusConnects is allocated €200m in the National Development Plan.

Any idea why they are delayed? Have Galway Transportation Study/Strategy(2015) for 3 years. Looks like an afterthought really.
Will be interesting if any CPO's are part of it.

SeanW

My thoughts on this:

First off, it's important to note that there are no general rules as to what will "work" in any given traffic problem. For example, if you look at the problems of Claregalway, it has a problem but the solution will necessary differ to that of a traffic problem in Hong Kong, London, Singapore, New York, Tokyo etc. Yet, some posters have written in terms of hard, unwavering absolutes: "More roads are NEVER the answer" "Roads ALWAYS induce demand (and that is ALWAYS bad). An example of this is here:

In an Irish context, I would say that Dublin is closer to New York while Galway is (although the case is more marginal) closer to ... Claregalway than Tokyo.

Secondly, it's important to understand the end objective. For me, bypasses are a simple solution in most cases because they create clear distinctions between Streets and Roads. Because both are equally important but the function of each are distinct.

Simply put: Streets are places to capture value, people in cars are permitted but the focus is on walkability, safety and general design that creates pleasant spaces, allows shops to thrive etc. People are often allowed to drive on streets, but generally only for local access, at low speeds and with frequent stop-start motions. On-street parking is permitted if it helps bring shoppers to shops etc.
Roads on the other hand, are to get people from point to point as quickly as possible. They should be separated from other things, have a minimum of interruptions, and yes, be expanded or re-routed if needed.

What happens when one path tries to perform both the functions of a Street and a Road? You get what the US advocacy group Strong Towns calls a Stroad. A Street-road hybrid that does not get people from place to place quickly, but is not a way to capture value in a space either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1HhLq-Huo

Sound familiar? It should because that is exactly what is going on in Galway. By my thinking, all of the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads. They try to serve the national functions of long distance travel, but are also really kinda like city streets.

To illustrate why this is so, look on a map and try to plot a course from Moycullen on the N59 to Kilcolgan on the N67. Even though you could do so without leaving the N-road network, you can't do that without going through Galway city stroads, at least 6 roundabouts, one right turn where you have to yield and God knows how many traffic lights. And that's if you do it in off-peak hours, if you have to do it during the peak hour, it will be torture.

Thusly, if you simply state that a bypass should not be considered under any circumstances, then you effectively want the current mess of stroads - which serve no-one - to continue. And that IS an absolute. You want to fix the problem of Stroads in Galway - and that requires roads - or you don't. There is no in-between.

By contrast, even the worse example given, the M50 does function like a road most of the time. That is, if you have to travel from Mullingar to Balbriggan, and your journey brings you to the M50 outside of peak hours, happy days. In that regard the M50 is mostly a success. The M50 functions as a bypass of Dublin most of the time, the stroads in Galway do not.

what_traffic wrote: »

Ditto. That's the big problem really - if people were more multi-modal in Galway City and it's surrounds, would there be a want for this City Ring Road.
Car for our household can spend a week or two in the driveway without been moved.

Good for you. Doesn't mean that roads are not needed along with streets. And it doesn't negate the need to eliminate stroads.

The M17 is doing what all such schemes do: generating more car traffic.

This is an example of thinking that needs to be called into question. If I understand it correctly, this view signals that ANY road project is bad because people will use it. And I have recent first hand experience to call this out.

I come from Longford and in the last 10 years a new bypass was completed, to complement an existing but inadequate bypass from the 1990s. That is, in around 1994, the N4 through Longford town centre was replaced with an N4 bypass providing a road from Dublin-Sligo traffic. But N5 Dublin-Mayo traffic was still routed through town streets. In the 2000s my memories of the town was that lorries were part of the towns furniture. If you sat in a local take away on Main St. and looked out the window, you would soon learn the names of all of the truck companies that operated in the Midlands and West of Ireland, because they'd all have trucks going through the town streets. Longford had stroads.

Fast forward to 2011. The N5 bypass opens. I'm in the the local take-away that Sunday, look out the window and ask myself "Where are all the trucks?" Answer, they were gone. Because the stroad had been replaced with a street and road.

Now: did that "induce demand?" Did someone drive from Roscommon to Dublin more because there was no bottleneck in Longford? Did some in Longford town decide to start driving more because it wasn't wall-to-wall lorries anymore? Possibly, but from what I can see, the traffic problems in the town are history. So I don't care. "Induced demand" is not everything, if it was, then we shouldn't have built any roads whatsoever after 1930.

what_traffic wrote: »

Agree re Density - Galway City Density has decreased by half since 1960 but population has quadrupled.

And you are automatically assuming this is a bad thing? Back in the early-to-mid 20th century, you probably had a lot of people living in tenements, boarding houses, families living in rooms etc. If they now live in houses, is that really a bad thing? Or, could a place where people live in houses be accommodated by things like Park and Ride, with fast buses, trams, suburban rail etc?

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

Not gonna happen

I knew that the phrase "not gonna happen" would feature in your response, but you've exceeded my expectations by putting it in your first sentence.

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

Orbital/circular routes are desperately needed, fully agree. But What's this obsession with BRT and buses? Unless they are electric, I'm against as they are noisy, polluting, vibrating disgusting machines. BRT is not a silver bullet, in fact it's just a buzzword, very few cities in Europe rely on this. Why not trams?

BRT is high quality, which is what attracts commuters away from cars.

But fine, trams it is then. Even better.

McGiver wrote: »

Where will you put them? I don't see the required space.

Can you give me three or four specific examples of roads in Galway where you "don't see space" for bus lanes?

McGiver wrote: »

That smells like a socialism and is quite a bit restrictive. You can't punish people for using their cars to commute in this way.

Your ideological preferences are irrelevant to transport planning. What matters is evidence, and the evidence clearly shows that prioritising private transport is unsustainable and that building more roads simply generates more use of private transport. People who walk, cycle and use public transport to commute are already being "punished", by the way that they are underserved, neglected and sidelined. It's long past time to reset the balance in favour of public transport and active travel.

serfboard

McGiver wrote: »

Why not trams?

To quote your own words back to you:

McGiver wrote: »

Where will you put them? I don't see the required space.

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

And you are automatically assuming this is a bad thing? Back in the early-to-mid 20th century, you probably had a lot of people living in tenements, boarding houses, families living in rooms etc. If they now live in houses, is that really a bad thing? Or, could a place where people live in houses be accommodated by things like Park and Ride, with fast buses, trams, suburban rail etc?

Your going to far back - this is post the 1950's when large no's of housing had been built in the City, more people per household back then for sure but the density of City is ever decreasing that was the point. We are going down a suburban/rurban route here in Galway rather than urban route. Agree re Park and Ride, only solution for the rurban and outer suburban residents,

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

By my thinking, all of the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads. They try to serve the national functions of long distance travel, but are also really kinda like city streets.

No not all the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads, yet. There are elements of it alright in the way planners have allowed commercial developments like Briarhill shopping centre to be constructed on the N6 corridor or a slip road into Windsor Motors in Ballybrit.

How about un-stroading them first?

McGiver

serfboard wrote:

To quote your own words back to you:

I literally grew up in trams - you almost definitely didn't. You can use narrow gauge and/or narrow design of the actual tram vehicle. Thus taking less space on the road then a bus or a bus lane.

Do you have any factual argument?

SeanW

what_traffic wrote: »

No not all the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads, yet. There are elements of it alright in the way planners have allowed commercial developments like Briarhill shopping centre to be constructed on the N6 corridor or a slip road into Windsor Motors in Ballybrit.

How about un-stroading them first?

You'd need to do both simultaneously. I don't see how you can un-stroad the current stroads in Galway because they remain the main routes from the Western county to pretty much the rest of the country. If you have to drive on a Galway street to get from Spiddal to Athlone ... basically it's still a stroad. That needs to be fixed in tandem with the other problems, which I agree are real. I also accept that the case to bypass Galway is not so strong as Longford or elsewhere in the Midlands as Galway is more the destination than the town en-route, but there is still a need to get better access to the Western county and the bypass - if accompanied by reasonably sensible planning - will do that.

On the day the bypass opens, the existing N6, which is all 4 lane in one form or another, should have the two kerbside lanes become an express bus corridor. If it works, then over time it could be upgrade to a GLuas. The entire length and then West onto the Seamus Quirke Road. The distinction would be absolute. Need to get through Galway? Use the bypass. Need to go into Galway? Maybe try the bus and P&R, because accommodating traffic is no longer the priority.

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

Your ideological preferences are irrelevant to transport planning. What matters is evidence, and the evidence clearly shows that prioritising private transport is unsustainable and that building more roads simply generates more use of private transport. People who walk, cycle and use public transport to commute are already being "punished", by the way that they are underserved, neglected and sidelined. It's long past time to reset the balance in favour of public transport and active travel.

Too philosophical, idealistic and detached from the political reality on the ground here. I could actually agree with the notion, but that's quite irrelevant to the practical solutions. Reset for sure - by providing incentives. But harsh punitive measures you suggested are simply not feasible.

Do you have an example from a <100k city in Europe (democratic country and market economy) where these kind of measures were taken? Punitive financial measures. And I'm not talking about banning cars from the city centre, I actually call for these in Galway.

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

BRT is high quality, which is what attracts commuters away from cars.

BRT is a buzzword for bus network matching 21st century. That's all that it is. It's just that BE and Irish public transport are about 35 years behind continental Europe that they have essentially forced you to look up to these buzzwords with expectations of some kind of a public transport silver bullet. Well, of course it's better than the local incarnation of the BE incompetency and backwardness in the form of their village buses with one door and cash payments, but it's still... a bloody bus.

BRT = a functioning city bus network matching 21st century reality i.e. no printed tickets, no cash, 3 doors all for exit/entry, self validation only, 1 stop takes 5 to 10 seconds tops to load/unload.

Care to respond to my questions regarding setup and enforcement? It all looks good on paper - but a bit scant on important detail

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

I knew that the phrase "not gonna happen" would feature in your response, but you've exceeded my expectations by putting it in your first sentence.

I provided why, according to me, it wouldn't happen. You provided exactly no rationally argument as a response. Try harder.

serfboard

A person who speculated thusly:

McGiver wrote: »

you almost definitely didn't

then asks for

McGiver wrote: »

factual argument

McGiver

serfboard wrote: »

A person who speculated thusly:

then asks for

The likelyhood of that statement approaches to 99% on this forum. Do you have any factual argument?

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

You'd need to do both simultaneously. I don't see how you can un-stroad the current stroads in Galway because they remain the main routes from the Western county to pretty much the rest of the country. If you have to drive on a Galway street to get from Spiddal to Athlone ... basically it's still a stroad. That needs to be fixed in tandem with the other problems, which I agree are real. I also accept that the case to bypass Galway is not so strong as Longford or elsewhere in the Midlands as Galway is more the destination than the town en-route, but there is still a need to get better access to the Western county and the bypass - if accompanied by reasonably sensible planning - will do that.

On the day the bypass opens, the existing N6, which is all 4 lane in one form or another, should have the two kerbside lanes become an express bus corridor. If it works, then over time it could be upgrade to a GLuas. The entire length and then West onto the Seamus Quirke Road. The distinction would be absolute. Need to get through Galway? Use the bypass. Need to go into Galway? Maybe try the bus and P&R, because accommodating traffic is no longer the priority.

The bypass is dead SeanW. It is a City Distributor Road that is been proposed. Galway City as you pointed out is the destination
The thread really should be renamed.

You un-stroad - by removing access or changing function to a street. So Briarhill Shopping Centre - Change main access to the Doughiska Road. Same for petrol stations, car dealerships. Remove access to the N6
For N59 in Newcastle -emphasis on function as a street.

Merit in your BUS Lane proposal right now but not along all the existing N6? Quincentenary Bridge and Headford Road for sure. Bothar no dTreabh? Sean Mulvoy Rd/Moneenageisha Rd would be better candidates for Bus and Cycle Lane conversions.

serfboard

McGiver wrote: »

Do you have any factual argument?

I do.

My factual argument is this: You said that there is no room for bus corridors, but you seemingly can find the space when it comes to trams.

We agree that space should be provided, but disagree on what that space should be used for. For me, it's QBC/BRT, and that's the best that we're going to get.

I wouldn't be as foolish as to say that we will never have trams in Galway, but I think that I can safely say that we will not have them for the next 40 years.

In the meantime what we are going to get is Bus Connects - which will consist of High-Frequency High Passenger Volume buses which will run along dedicated bus corridors.

In time, these may they convert to trams, but that's a long way down the track/road.

We also desperately need Bus Park and Ride in Galway, to ferry the dispersed County population into and around the city on those Bus Lanes.

We actually have two Bus Park and Rides already - both provided by employers for their own staff (One @ Dangan for NUIG staff, and one @ Merlin Park for UCHG staff), and we have a fantastic Train Park and Ride @ Oranmore,but we need lots more at the entry points to the city (R336 (Barna Road), N59, N84, N83, R339 (Monivea Road), M6, N67 and R338 (Oranmore Road)).

McGiver

serfboard wrote:

My factual argument is this: You said that there is no room for bus corridors, but you seemingly can find the space when it comes to trams.

Correct, as I explained narrow gauge/design is possible with trams. And they can go elsewhere where there are no roads.

serfboard wrote:

We agree that space should be provided, but disagree on what that space should be used for. For me, it's QBC/BRT, and that's the best that we're going to get.

OK, maybe you are right. BRT is still...a bus. How different is it from a bus? As I said it's just a buzzword.

The problem with bus dependent public transport here is that it depends on the roads, the very same roads which created the sprawl, which then lead to more car traffic and more sprawl. Whereas trams don't depend on road network per se. Hence you can actually build a rail network and push development along it concentrating population density. Basically, you need to plan ahead with rail and link it to the urban development. If you go with buses and using existing road network you may just exacerbate the sprawl and you don't really plan and link to the urban development, it's more of a reactive approach.

Also bus throughput is way lower than light rail. But possibly wouldn't be an issue until population densities are concentrated enough. For which you need light rail (you see where I'm going with that?), buses may not achieve that and keep the sprawl going.

serfboard wrote:

I wouldn't be as foolish as to say that we will never have trams in Galway, but I think that I can safely say that we will not have them for the next 40 years.

Possibly. Who knows.

serfboard wrote:

In the meantime what we are going to get is Bus Connects - which will consist of High-Frequency High Passenger Volume buses which will run along dedicated bus corridors.

What is a dedicated corridor, a bus lane? High passenger as in a proper city bus with three doors you mean, I can agree with that The problem is that Galway has essentially what I consider village buses.

serfboard wrote:

In time, these may they convert to trams, but that's a long way down the track/road.

Historically the opposite has happened. I don't know any examples of the reverse.

serfboard wrote:

We also desperately need Bus Park and Ride in Galway, to ferry the dispersed County population into and around the city on those Bus Lanes.

Yes, but that's going to work only if the buses go every 10 minutes, they go where people need them to, they go there quickly, they are cheaper than car, and there is a shelter at the p&r (the lack of sheltered bus stops is shocking in one of the most rainiest places in Europe, frankly).

serfboard wrote:

We actually have two Bus Park and Rides already - both provided by employers for their own staff (One @ Dangan for NUIG staff, and one @ Merlin Park for UCHG staff), and we have a fantastic Train Park and Ride @ Oranmore,but we need lots more at the entry points to the city (R336 (Barna Road), N59, N84, N83, R339 (Monivea Road), M6, N67 and R338 (Oranmore Road)).

The Oranmore one is always empty when I go around...

serfboard

McGiver wrote: »

as I explained narrow gauge/design is possible with trams.

So what is the difference in space take between a Tram and a bus lane?

McGiver wrote: »

And they can go elsewhere where there are no roads.

Really? Where? Where in Galway are you going to put Trams where there are no roads?

McGiver wrote: »

OK, maybe you are right. BRT is still...a bus. How different is it from a bus? As I said it's just a buzzword.

You obviously don't know what BRT is, and that's fair enough - you're not interested in it. But don't dismiss something that you don't know anything about. Here's a primer for you, from our own NTA.

BRT is a completely different way of thinking about Bus Transport. Yes, the mode of transport is a bus, but to say that it's the same thing is like comparing a steam train with a TGV - they're essentially the same, but there's also a world of difference.

BRT Buses run along dedicated bus lanes and can change traffic lights at junctions (no good on roundabouts, but most of the roundabouts in the city have been replaced or are in the process of being replaced. The ones that are left (Cemetry Cross, Menlo and the back of the hospital) are five-arm roundabouts and some road is going to have to lose out. Making that decision is not easy, but then nothing about solving any of Galway's transport problems are easy.)

From that NTA page, BRT buses are:

NTA wrote:

• Modern, attractive multi-door vehicles
• Uses own BRT lane or shared bus/BRT lane
• BRT vehicle given priority at traffic signals
• High quality stops and level boarding on and off vehicles
• Off-board ticketing (tickets purchased in advance or Leap cards)
• Conveniently located stops with optimal spacing

The stops for BRT are completely different as well. They are more like the Luas stop. For instance, the stops for the Belfast Glider have:

Belfast Glider wrote:

• A High quality 'platform' feel
• Larger enhanced shelters with real time electronic passenger information
• Ticket machines and validators
• CCTV
• Mixture of seating types
• 30% fewer stops, around 400m apart facilitating faster, more regulated journeys
• Cycle parking at key locations

McGiver wrote: »

trams don't depend on road network per se. Hence you can actually build a rail network and push development along it concentrating population density.

As I said before, where are you thinking that this is going to go in Galway that is not on the road network? What are you going to use - underground, overhead rail lines, what? The Luas Green line at least benefitted from having a dedicated track already in place for most of the route.

McGiver wrote: »

Basically, you need to plan ahead with rail and link it to the urban development. If you go with buses and using existing road network you may just exacerbate the sprawl and you don't really plan and link to the urban development, it's more of a reactive approach.

Fair enough, but one caveat. This is Ireland, and developers spend a lot of their time buying cheap agricultural land, getting it rezoned, and then sitting on it for years.

And by definition of being agricultural land, it therefore sits far out from city centres. When they finally get planning permission, there is no transport for them except cars.

The only exceptions that I am aware of so far in Ireland, are Adamstown, and the fact that parts of the Red Luas Line were paid for by developers, but those are the exceptions, and apply in Dublin only.

McGiver wrote: »

Also bus throughput is way lower than light rail.

Bus throughput maybe, but this statement is incorrect for BRT. Have a read of this study, for example.

The TransMilenio system in Bogotá, Colombia ... increased the maximum achieved capacity of a BRT system to 35,000 PPHPD. Light rail, by comparison, has a maximum theoretical capacity of about 20,000 PPHPD, but these levels have rarely if ever been achieved under real-world conditions.

On normal city streets, the highest capacity LRT systems are in Europe, and they typically carry a maximum of about 9,000 PPHPD. There are conditions that favour LRT over BRT, but they are fairly narrow.

Meeting these conditions would require a corridor with only one available lane in each direction, more than 16,000 but fewer than 20,000 PPHPD, and a long block length, so the train does not block intersections. These specific conditions are rare, but where they exist, light rail would have an operational advantage. Otherwise, any perceived advantages of LRT over BRT are primarily aesthetic and political rather than technical.

McGiver wrote: »

High passenger as in a proper city bus with three doors you mean, I can agree with that The problem is that Galway has essentially what I consider village buses.

I agree with you. See above for what's being considered. Some BRT buses can carry almost 300 passengers.

McGiver wrote: »

That's going to work only if the buses go every 10 minutes, they go where people need them to, they go there quickly, they are cheaper than car, and there is a shelter at the p&r (the lack of sheltered bus stops is shocking in one of the most rainiest places in Europe, frankly).

Agree with all of this. All of my points are predicated on all of this being provided, but they would equally have to be provided for LRT, but with the additional expense of the track.

McGiver wrote: »

The Oranmore one is always empty when I go around...

My experience has been the exact opposite to this - except on a Sunday morning maybe

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

Where will you put them [the bus lanes]? I don't see the required space.

Can you give me three or four specific examples of roads in Galway where you "don't see space" for bus lanes?

Ruhanna

serfboard wrote: »

I do.

My factual argument is this: You said that there is no room for bus corridors, but you seemingly can find the space when it comes to trams.

We agree that space should be provided, but disagree on what that space should be used for. For me, it's QBC/BRT, and that's the best that we're going to get.

I wouldn't be as foolish as to say that we will never have trams in Galway, but I think that I can safely say that we will not have them for the next 40 years.

In the meantime what we are going to get is Bus Connects - which will consist of High-Frequency High Passenger Volume buses which will run along dedicated bus corridors.

In time, these may they convert to trams, but that's a long way down the track/road.

We also desperately need Bus Park and Ride in Galway, to ferry the dispersed County population into and around the city on those Bus Lanes.

We actually have two Bus Park and Rides already - both provided by employers for their own staff (One @ Dangan for NUIG staff, and one @ Merlin Park for UCHG staff), and we have a fantastic Train Park and Ride @ Oranmore,but we need lots more at the entry points to the city (R336 (Barna Road), N59, N84, N83, R339 (Monivea Road), M6, N67 and R338 (Oranmore Road)).

There are variations on BRT. Galway is not a metropolis after all (despite the grandiloquence of the City Council's failed Smarter Travel Plan, which referred to the "metropolitan area" of Galway, as if our small European town was Curitiba or Jakarta.

The real issue is that Galway needs an orbital public transport service for commuters, and to crowbar commuters out of their comfy cars will require both carrot and stick.

The carrot is a fast, reliable, efficient and comfortable service that whisks commuters to their destination without delay and with the minimum of hassle. That means high quality conveyances, high frequency at peak times and a high standard of facilities (eg stops that are more akin to stations).

The stick will have to be a range of restrictions on car use, which is why building a cross-town motorway for car commuters will undermine the development of modern public transport in Galway for a generation (until the N6GCRR inevitable ends up the way the M50 is now).

At the moment, the City Council contemptuously leaves bus passengers standing in the rain and mud waiting for infrequent buses that don't arrive on time and take stupidly circuitous routes to places commuters don't want to go to.

If you live in Knocknacarra and work in Parkmore or Ballybrit, you just want to get on the bus and go straight to work. Why would you have any interest in going through Eyre Square, just because the bus driver's union says you have to and because we're not allowed to do anything with transport that will upset the triumvirate of motorists, mandarins and merchants?

L1011

Ruhanna wrote: »

Can you give me three or four specific examples of roads in Galway where you "don't see space" for bus lanes?

The quin bridge. The elephant in the room in all the crayons attempts