The Impossible Burger 2.0

gozunda · 09-04-2019 2:27pm

Xcellor wrote: »

"when nutrients are scarce and protein is a luxury.".So it's a starvation situation."is absolutely deliberate and likely motivated by a need for calcium"
They obviously aren't drinking enough milk.

It is very easy to take one liners out of context. Let me help you.

In an ironic twist of fate, researchers have found that hares can feast on carcasses, complementing their diet with animal meat — including meat from their own kind and even one of their predators, the lynx.

Peers believe that the hares (Lepus americanus) do this in order to boost their protein intake in the rough Canadian winters, when nutrients are scarce and protein is a luxury. The hares were also territorial with their carrion, protecting it from other individuals. Peers suspects that hares haven’t been spotted munching on larger carcass such as reindeer due to the competition from proper predators.

In fact, says Naish, “many ‘strict herbivores’ will eat animal matter on occasion.”

Sometimes this behaviour is absolutely deliberate and likely motivated by a need for calcium: antler- and bone-eating is common in deer and other hoofed mammals, and the consumption of seabird chick heads, wings and legs by island-dwelling deer and sheep is well documented (Furness 1988).

I do not get the throwaway and frankly irrelevant 'milk' comment you included.

Eitherway as I stated it's a fairly common, well known and documented phenomena.

I included those links as you expressed doubts that this really happened. Well as those articles show - it does. Does it disgust you for some reason? I dont understand that.

Xcellor wrote: »

This does not justify feeding cattle an atypical diet because feeding them correctly is not sustainable.

Christ on a bike - no need for the accusations
Exactly where did I state that it did?

Afaik (and I'm not an expert in this area)very limited amounts of highly heat treated proteins of that type are permitted. They are by no means found in all compound feeds. And are sometimes be used a carrier for additional nutrients where some compond feeds are deficient in more or more elements. Similar I believe the way some (human) tablets and medicines use animal derived binders for absorption etc. Animals are known to tolerate such additions without issue due to their ability to occasionally scavenge protein. Thats as much as I know. So by definition its not 'atypical' and I've no idea what you mean by 'non sustainable' in this instance btw. That terms tends to get a lot of abuse and is frequently misused imo.

Say my name · 09-04-2019 10:11pm

The origins of this whole eat less meat brigade.

Ye probably know already how and why Kelloggs cornflakes were invented from bbc's QI.

No harm to watch this.

https://youtu.be/p0VwjsZJmYo

Scroll down through the responses too.

I think the vegan spoof has finally been rightly seen by the majority for what it really is and more importantly now where it came from and probably the ultimate how it's funded.

drunkmonkey · 09-04-2019 10:51pm

Just an idea but we need Board Bia approved Take aways. It's one thing farmers should start calling for before all the Impossible burgers & Co arrive because if things stay as they are Impossible doesn't have much competition in the convenience market.
Currently the chickens coming from asia, the sausages from god knows where and a 10yro old 100% Monaghan Beef burgers poster on the wall should't cut it. It's nearly a 3 Billion Irish market with little to no regulation on where the food comes from as far as I can see.
There needs to be a join up between, farmers, butchers and retailers.

roosterman71 · 10-04-2019 8:53am

Say my name wrote: »

The origins of this whole eat less meat brigade.

Ye probably know already how and why Kelloggs cornflakes were invented from bbc's QI.

No harm to watch this.

https://youtu.be/p0VwjsZJmYo

Scroll down through the responses too.

I think the vegan spoof has finally been rightly seen by the majority for what it really is and more importantly now where it came from and probably the ultimate how it's funded.

Jaysus. That is some claim to be making. Has there been any follow up on this research to verify the claims? Hard to believe a global movement to stay away from meat just to stop people playing with themselves!

gozunda · 10-04-2019 9:19am

roosterman71 wrote: »

Jaysus. That is some claim to be making. Has there been any follow up on this research to verify the claims? Hard to believe a global movement to stay away from meat just to stop people playing with themselves!

The whole Kellogs thing and same is well documented and a business empire and a fortune was founded on his sanatorium and cereal based 'health' products which were designed for exactly that purpose tbh.

See:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/history/cereal-masturbation.aspx

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/american-vegetarianism-had-religious-upbringing-180956346/

https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/asian-and-middle-eastern-art-biographies/john-harvey-kellogg

Makes me want to put down the bowl of rice krispies tbh if theres supposed to be no snap crackle and pop as you might say eh ....

I'll get my coat ... :pac:

Suckler · 10-04-2019 9:28am

gozunda wrote: »

The whole Kellogs thing and same is well documented and a business empire and a fortune was founded on his sanatorium and cereal based 'health' products which were designed for exactly that purpose tbh.

See:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/history/cereal-masturbation.aspx

Makes me want to put down the bowl of rice krispies tbh if theres supposed to be no snap crackle and pop as you might say eh ....

I'll get my coat ... :pac:

Have a look at 'The Road to Wellville' ....

_Brian · 10-04-2019 12:51pm

I don’t really care what’s behind all that vegan stuff although I’m not surprised it’s a bit weird.

What grinds my gears is the constant need to “convert” everybody to their lifestyle based on their emotional weakness regarding farmed animals.

They have no interest in recognising our choice to be animal farmers or consuming animal products as human have since any civilisation began.

They will in no way recognise that farmers actually genuinely care for the well being of their animals.

We saw earlier in the year a group of young men and women hidden behind masks “protesting” outside a butcher shop, harassing elderly ladies in and out minding their business, what sort of sick weak coward hides behind a mask and harasses the elderly in public.

Nobody would care that they are vegan, but why do they need billboards vilifying farmers and threads gloating about the same. Why the need to abuse and demean farmers and others because of their lifestyle choices.

The environmental pretence is a long busted myth. They prey on the fact that the figures associated to farming animals were hugely incorrectly calculated and won’t recognise emerging practice that actively sequesters carbon making animal farming a positive effect on the environment along with feeding people. Imagine, they are happier with jumbo jets spewing emissions through the sky on frivolous journeys than they are with animals roaming on fresh green fields of grass to actually provide essential nutritious food for people. They are happy to destroy the environment by knocking rain forests for their products, air miles for their factory foods, chemicals and additives, huge energy requirements to produce it.

The animal welfare issue is a bust too, there are more pets suffering in Ireland than there are farmed animals suffering yet you don’t see them harassing dog owners in the street, when did you last see them occupy someone’s garden because they have a dog, cat and pet rabbit ??

They are lauding the imitation meat burger yet it’s known hundreds of animals were used for testing and destroyed afterwards, this will continue and likely increase as the company are increasing development of more hyper processed muck, that’s a huge double standard they are overlooking just to have a go at farmers.

It’s hard not to see extreme veganism veggitarians as a cult where they prey on the emotionally weak, sucking them in and using them to forward on the twisted values to the next generation.

Fascists round the world have the same trademarks.

-Intolerance of others who don’t think as they think.
- tue absolute infernal compulsion to force everyone have the same lifestyle as they have
-The use of emotional propaganda to demean others and spread their untruths.
-Abuse and threatening behaviour towards others they see as less because they are different.
-A sense of superiority that their way of life is best and the only one that should be tolerated.

These are worldwide traits of veganism, they actively group together to seek out others to abuse and demean with the goal of “concerting” them to veganism.

drunkmonkey · 03-05-2019 3:34am

Beyond Meat just IPO'd for $3.8 billion. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/technology/beyond-meat-ipo-stock-price.html

Seems way overvalued, puts it near the same value as Nomad Foods (the owner of birds eye, goodfellas, Findus etc)

_Brian · 03-05-2019 9:15am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Beyond Meat just IPO'd for $3.8 billion. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/technology/beyond-meat-ipo-stock-price.html

Seems way overvalued, puts it near the same value as Nomad Foods (the owner of birds eye, goodfellas, Findus etc)

They all produce overprocessed muck for idiots who know no better but to adore it and comsume copious amounts of shiit. Would stand somthey all have equal value.

Xcellor · 03-05-2019 11:39am

_Brian wrote: »

They all produce overprocessed muck for idiots who know no better but to adore it and comsume copious amounts of shiit. Would stand somthey all have equal value.

Some sweeping comments. Everyone is an idiot if they consume processed food? Where do you draw the line?

Overprocessed is subjective. Milk in my opinion is overprocessed.

emaherx · 03-05-2019 12:36pm

Xcellor wrote: »

Some sweeping comments. Everyone is an idiot if they consume processed food? Where do you draw the line?

Don't believe that is what he said, maybe re-read before attacking the post.

Xcellor · 03-05-2019 1:10pm

emaherx wrote: »

Don't believe that is what he said, maybe re-read before attacking the post.

Maybe you should also re-read my post. I didn't attack anything he said. I asked questions to understand the point he was making.

emaherx · 03-05-2019 1:18pm

Xcellor wrote: »

Maybe you should also re-read my post. I didn't attack anything he said. I asked questions to understand the point he was making.

Everyone is an idiot if they consume copious amounts of processed food.

drunkmonkey · 03-05-2019 1:20pm

_Brian wrote: »

They all produce overprocessed muck for idiots who know no better but to adore it and comsume copious amounts of shiit. Would stand somthey all have equal value.

You should take a short position in it today and make a few quid while they lose value, it's overvalued by a long shot I'd say. Some of these IPO's can go down as quick as they go up.
Let's see what the market thinks....

03-05-2019 1:20pm

_Brian wrote: »

Its rotating back to extreme veganism because we know well thats whats behind it...

Now you can dress it up as a replacment for meat eaters, or better for the environment or whatever rubbish you tell yourself..

But no right minded person is fooled by all this attempted misdirection. This is a direct attack on animal farming and consumption of meat/dairy because a section of society has a emotional problem with this, what they do have is deep pockets and so are in a good position to get their propaganda spread widly..

In the same way I'd get banned if I were posting photos of steaks in the V&V forum, this isnt welcome here, its not food, its not something were interested in seeing or hearing about. Posters seem to have a real hard on for this hyper processed muck, fine, eat rubbish, but we're not fooled by that MUCK !

Jaysus that is some tinfoil-hat paranoia right there. Fair enough though if you actively work in the beef industry, I can see how the obvious looming threat of sustainable lab grown meat could make you a bit hysterical.

You need to come to the realisation that the idea of reducing meat intake (particularly beef given it's relatively larger emissions and requirements for land and fresh water) in our diets has now entered the mainstream concsiousness, it's no longer the preserve of new age hippy nonsense.

I love beef. Ireland has some of the best beef in the world and I'm very proud of that. However I'm also cognisant of the impact food production has on the environment and like many others I'm aware of how much of that impact is comprised by beef production. Much as I love beef, if offered a very similar alternative which was much more environmentaly sustainable I would make the sacrifice and go with that.

As I said this isn't some ideological/dogmatic hippy beliefs driving my decision, it's simply the recognition of the need for a more sustainable alternative for beef.
Lads trying to disregard this as vegan/hippy rubbish are only sticking their heads in the sand.
And as for those trying to argue that beef production is actually environmentally friendly - "carbon sequesterisation" of pastureland etc. come off it lads...what was on the pastureland before we needed it for the beef?
Trees. I wonder how they are when it comes to carbon sequesterisation!

emaherx · 03-05-2019 2:36pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

.what was on the pastureland before we needed it for the beef?

Deer, some as big as elephants

Also about the trees and carbon, young growing trees are very good at capturing carbon, but mature trees not so good.

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-grasslands-reliable-carbon-trees.html

03-05-2019 2:54pm

emaherx wrote: »

Also about the trees and carbon, young growing trees are very good at capturing carbon, but mature trees not so good.

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-grasslands-reliable-carbon-trees.html

The study you linked is in relation to California where mature trees are viewed as relatively poorer carbon sinks due to the risk they will burn in forest fires, thereby releasing their trapped carbon - I know it's possible here but I don't think forests in Ireland are at anywhere near the risk from forest fires as they would be in California

emaherx · 03-05-2019 2:56pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

The study you linked is in relation to California where mature trees are viewed as relatively poorer carbon sinks due to the risk they will burn in forest fires, thereby releasing their trapped carbon - I know it's possible here but I don't think forests in Ireland are at anywhere near the risk from forest fires as they would be in California

True, but my statement above is also true. Mature trees can produces as much carbon as the remove from the atmosphere.

And there have been many forest fires here in recent years.

Panch18 · 03-05-2019 2:57pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Jaysus that is some tinfoil-hat paranoia right there. Fair enough though if you actively work in the beef industry, I can see how the obvious looming threat of sustainable lab grown meat could make you a bit hysterical.

You need to come to the realisation that the idea of reducing meat intake (particularly beef given it's relatively larger emissions and requirements for land and fresh water) in our diets has now entered the mainstream concsiousness, it's no longer the preserve of new age hippy nonsense.

I love beef. Ireland has some of the best beef in the world and I'm very proud of that. However I'm also cognisant of the impact food production has on the environment and like many others I'm aware of how much of that impact is comprised by beef production. Much as I love beef, if offered a very similar alternative which was much more environmentaly sustainable I would make the sacrifice and go with that.

As I said this isn't some ideological/dogmatic hippy beliefs driving my decision, it's simply the recognition of the need for a more sustainable alternative for beef.
Lads trying to disregard this as vegan/hippy rubbish are only sticking their heads in the sand.
And as for those trying to argue that beef production is actually environmentally friendly - "carbon sequesterisation" of pastureland etc. come off it lads...what was on the pastureland before we needed it for the beef?
Trees. I wonder how they are when it comes to carbon sequesterisation!

Just on the bolded bit - you have fallen into the common public misconception that trees are some sort of messiah when it comes to carbon sequesterisation - when the reality is that grasslands can be just as good as trees - in fact they are better in a lot of instances. One of the several reasons for this is that grassland locks carbon into the soil whereas trees tend to store the carbon in the tree - so when a tree is burned or dies a lot of the carbon it has sequestered is actually then released. Whereas the carbon from grass is locked into the soil and therefore much more stable. not so much an issue in Ireland but in places like California where wildfires are common it is a huge issue.

I don't know why people have the misconception that trees are good, grass farmland bad - is it because trees are large so people think that a big plant must sequester a lot more carbon than a tiny grass plant?

The reality is that we need a good balance of trees, grassland, hedges, bogs etc

drunkmonkey · 03-05-2019 3:01pm

Opened at 74 and took a tumble looks like it's on the way back up https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/bynd

_Brian · 03-05-2019 3:02pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Jaysus that is some tinfoil-hat paranoia right there. Fair enough though if you actively work in the beef industry, I can see how the obvious looming threat of sustainable lab grown meat could make you a bit hysterical.

You need to come to the realisation that the idea of reducing meat intake (particularly beef given it's relatively larger emissions and requirements for land and fresh water) in our diets has now entered the mainstream concsiousness, it's no longer the preserve of new age hippy nonsense.

I love beef. Ireland has some of the best beef in the world and I'm very proud of that. However I'm also cognisant of the impact food production has on the environment and like many others I'm aware of how much of that impact is comprised by beef production. Much as I love beef, if offered a very similar alternative which was much more environmentaly sustainable I would make the sacrifice and go with that.

As I said this isn't some ideological/dogmatic hippy beliefs driving my decision, it's simply the recognition of the need for a more sustainable alternative for beef.
Lads trying to disregard this as vegan/hippy rubbish are only sticking their heads in the sand.
And as for those trying to argue that beef production is actually environmentally friendly - "carbon sequesterisation" of pastureland etc. come off it lads...what was on the pastureland before we needed it for the beef?
Trees. I wonder how they are when it comes to carbon sequesterisation!

We don't need a sustainable alternative for an already sustainable product, your just being conned by the propaganda..

Beef can and is farmed sustainably, ok not all of it but its what we should be moving towards, not lab grown imitations where chemicals and energy are consumed that are just as bad for the environment.

Look to what Austraila are doing, theyve recognised the pasture based beef production systems that are net carbon sinks and are providing support schemes for these, win-win, proper food that is good for people and good for the environment..

The V&V propaganda will tell you its not possible but they really have their religous belifs behind their drive not the environment, otherwise they wouldnt be pushing their "alternative" that consumer so much power, chemicals and ingredients that the company themselves have no idea what it is or what the implications of consuming it long term is..

Plus: even the scientists that produced the report damning beef farming have acknowledged its flaws, they include carbon lost in clearing land of trees in the calculation, how can that be relevent to current beef farming on a country that is increasing forests to the extent we are ?

gozunda · 03-05-2019 3:06pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Jaysus that is some tinfoil-hat paranoia right there. Fair enough though if you actively work in the beef industry, I can see how the obvious looming threat of sustainable lab grown meat could make you a bit hysterical.
You need to come to the realisation that the idea of reducing meat intake (particularly beef given it's relatively larger emissions and requirements for land and fresh water) in our diets has now entered the mainstream concsiousness, it's no longer the preserve of new age hippy nonsense. . I love beef. Ireland has some of the best beef in the world and I'm very proud of that. However I'm also cognisant of the impact food production has on the environment and like many others I'm aware of how much of that impact is comprised by beef production. Much as I love beef, if offered a very similar alternative which was much more environmentaly sustainable I would make the sacrifice and go with that. As I said this isn't some ideological/dogmatic hippy beliefs driving my decision, it's simply the recognition of the need for a more sustainable alternative for beef. Lads trying to disregard this as vegan/hippy rubbish are only sticking their heads in the sand. And as for those trying to argue that beef production is actually environmentally friendly - "carbon sequesterisation" of pastureland etc. come off it lads...what was on the pastureland before we needed it for the beef? Trees. I wonder how they are when it comes to carbon sequesterisation!

And if you read any of the many comments posted on this issue - you'll quickly come to the realisation that much of the emissions , water / land stuff has been fueled by massive amounts of misinformation.

It remains that Fossil fuel use and Transport are the two single biggest contributors to emissions on the planet, and only then agriculture which actually feeds people .

Misinformation we are being fed includes the rubbish statistic promoted by various plant food enthusiasts online that agriculture was supposedly responsible for 51% of all ghg emissions worldwide. Not only has that figure been shown to have been pure codswallop by scientists and others - it has not stopped that tagline being used again and again by various plant food enthusiasts to support their beliefs....

http://www.vancouverhumanesociety.bc.ca/wp-content/uploads/Livestock-and-greenhouse-gas-emissions.-The-importance-of-getting-the-numbers-right.pdf

https://newint.org/blog/2016/02/10/cowspiracy-stampeding-in-the-wrong-direction

Figures regarding water and land are also largely based on the US feed lot system and bear little if any resemblence to reality.

https://www.businessinsider.com/veganism-may-be-unsustainable-in-the-future-according-to-new-research-2018-8?r=UK

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/16/veganism-not-key-sustainable-development-natural-resources-jimmy-smith

With regard to individual responsibility - it has been suggested that for the purposes of " Individual consumer choices - the top (three) actions you can take to cut your own emissions, in order of impact, includes having fewer (or no) children (equaling, for someone in a rich country, an estimated 58.6 tons of carbon dioxide equivalent per child, per year), living car-free (about 2.4 tons per year) and avoiding air travel (about 1.6 tons per round-trip transatlantic flight)."

Best of luck.

emaherx · 03-05-2019 3:20pm

gozunda wrote: »

Figures regarding water and land are also largely based on the US feed lot system and bear little if any resemblence to reality.

Often when calculating water required to produce beef, the water required to grow the grass is included as if we were actually out irrigating the land.

03-05-2019 4:07pm

Panch18 wrote: »

not so much an issue in Ireland but in places like California where wildfires are common it is a huge issue.

I don't know why people have the misconception that trees are good, grass farmland bad - is it because trees are large so people think that a big plant must sequester a lot more carbon than a tiny grass plant?

The reality is that we need a good balance of trees, grassland, hedges, bogs etc

But again, this is all in relation to California? I.e. a global hotspot for wildfires?

In stable climates like ours deciduous forests are superior to grasslands as carbon sinks, it's simply a fact. Furthermore they provide habitats for our indigenous wildlife and are beneficial to the soil unlike the conifers planted by Coillte who seem hellbent on the podzolisation of Ireland's soil.

"The reality is that we need a good balance of trees, grassland, hedges, bogs etc"

I'm very much in agreement - Ireland is one of the most deforested nations in Europe, we'll need some hefty aforestation schemes if we're to achieve that desirable good balance you refer to.

Panch18 · 03-05-2019 4:51pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

But again, this is all in relation to California? I.e. a global hotspot for wildfires?

In stable climates like ours deciduous forests are superior to grasslands as carbon sinks, it's simply a fact. Furthermore they provide habitats for our indigenous wildlife and are beneficial to the soil unlike the conifers planted by Coillte who seem hellbent on the podzolisation of Ireland's soil.

"The reality is that we need a good balance of trees, grassland, hedges, bogs etc"

I'm very much in agreement - Ireland is one of the most deforested nations in Europe, we'll need some hefty aforestation schemes if we're to achieve that desirable good balance you refer to.

We don't need any hefty afforestation scheme - we just need to ensure that what we plant going forward is not the crap that is currently being planted - planting proper native woodland rather than paper crap

Like I said we need our grasslands in Ireland, and elsewhere, to ensure that carbon is locked into the soil and not just the plant itself

gozunda · 03-05-2019 5:02pm

Panch18 wrote: »

We don't need any hefty afforestation scheme - we just need to ensure that what we plant going forward is not the crap that is currently being planted - planting proper native woodland rather than paper crap

Like I said we need our grasslands in Ireland, and elsewhere, to ensure that carbon is locked into the soil and not just the plant itself

^^ This

And it's not only some farmers saying it btw

The most carbon-rich soils are peatlands, mostly found in northern Europe, the UK and Ireland. Grassland soils also store a lot of carbon per hectare...

The fastest way to increase organic carbon in farmed soil is to convert arable land to grassland...

On farmland, ploughing the soil is known to accelerate decomposition and mineralisation of organic matter. In order to keep carbon and nutrients in the soil, researchers suggest reducing tillage

https://www.eea.europa.eu/signals/signals-2015/articles/soil-and-climate-change

With regard to our existing forest cover

Speaking in the European Parliament in Strasbourg at the Committee on Agriculture and Rural Affairs, the independent Roscommon MEP, Luke Ming Flanagan, raised the issue of Ireland’s hedgerows, which cover up to 6.4% of the land in Ireland, yet do not get factored into the percentage of tree cover in the Forestry Strategy.

In Ireland we often get hit with the figure of 11% tree cover or forest cover but our traditional hedgerows contain some of the most diverse and sustainable trees planted in Ireland.

Flanagan also questioned the EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Phil Hogan, on the issue of carbon sequestration; the process by which carbon dioxide (CO2) is removed from the atmosphere and held in solid or liquid form.

emaherx · 03-05-2019 5:33pm

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

But again, this is all in relation to California? I.e. a global hotspot for wildfires?

In stable climates like ours deciduous forests are superior to grasslands as carbon sinks, it's simply a fact. Furthermore they provide habitats for our indigenous wildlife and are beneficial to the soil unlike the conifers planted by Coillte who seem hellbent on the podzolisation of Ireland's soil.

"The reality is that we need a good balance of trees, grassland, hedges, bogs etc"

I'm very much in agreement - Ireland is one of the most deforested nations in Europe, we'll need some hefty aforestation schemes if we're to achieve that desirable good balance you refer to.

Nearly 1000 acres of Coillte owned forests burned last year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1037836/

There has been a major wildfire this year already too.

_Brian · 03-05-2019 6:26pm

https://www.fix.com/blog/grass-fed-beef/

Buford T. Justice XIX · 03-05-2019 7:25pm

https://twitter.com/SustainableDish/status/1123703452947890176?s=19

Buford T. Justice XIX · 03-05-2019 7:29pm

And this deserves mention too.
https://twitter.com/j0hn_k/status/1123821873500962819?s=19

The Impossible Burger 2.0

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