Ethereal Cereal wrote: » I agree, that scene has got a disproportionate amount of attention. As a scene, I think it is a bit cringy, but it is worth the cringe if younger girls can see a collective of current female superhero's together. However.... I do think overall the movie has very poor female representation. Off the top of my head - Shuri, a popular breakout character from black panther, was not seen in the battle at all. - She was. She along with Rescue and someone else I couldn't quite make out hit Thanos with blasts to allow Cap.Marvel to get past him when trying to bring the Gauntlet into the Quantum thing in the van. Given the number of heroes in the final battle though, hard to make a place for everyone. - Wasp, the only female superhero with a name check in a movie title, had no scene's in the final battle. - She was with Scott helping get the van going Edit: Actually, just checked and she was the third along with Shuri and Rescue who blasted Thanos so Cap.Marvel could get past him - Black Widow is on administrative duties at the start of the movie, chairing meetings between various characters. - Which ties into her character in that the Avengers is all she had left. Even when she was told of a minor underwater tremor, she wanted to investigate it because she needed something to focus on and to fight. - Black Widow threw herself off the side of a cliff in service to Clint and the other male member of the Avengers. That character in particular has had an awful run of it over the last few movies. - She didn't do it in service to Clint. It wasn't about doing it for Clint's family, it was about doing it for her family; the Avengers. She did it in service to her own story in that she still had red in her ledger, and this would wipe it out. She needed to be the one to do it for her, not for Clint. - Captain Marvel has the Storm Breaker Axe flown within an inch of her head, before Thor says "I like this one". And this scene was heavily used to promote the movie. - Because he likes how she didn't even flinch, he likes her confidence, and feels she actually can help them take down Thanos. Nothing to do with her being female. - Captain Marvel is relegated to transporting male characters at the start of the movie and then being removed from the movie until the final act. - She's instrumental in taking down Thanos at the start and helps decimate his army at the end. But it was a story more about the original Avengers (with some other survivors to help them). Captain Marvel was too new and overpowered to be in the whole movie. - Future Nebula kills her own past self. - For her story reasons. Don't see why this is a negative. And I think this is down the the Russo brothers. Marvel Entertainment do seem somewhat active in positive female representation, with "AntMan and the Wasp" and "Black Panther". This seems to be a conscious decision by the movie writers and directors. This is one of the biggest movies of the past decade, in this day and age, to create a movie that is that much of a disservice to half of the population is a bold move.
Ethereal Cereal wrote: » I agree, that scene has got a disproportionate amount of attention. As a scene, I think it is a bit cringy, but it is worth the cringe if younger girls can see a collective of current female superhero's together.
Penn wrote: » I think a lot of these things can be viewed in different ways, but on the whole I think it was mostly a very positive representation of women throughout the movie, in the sense that it never mattered whether any of the characters were male or female. None were treated better or worse because of it. I would also say that the two characters in the movie who posed the biggest one-on-one threat to Thanos were Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel. Thanos beat Cap (w/ Mjolnir), Thor and Iron Man in a single fight; twice. With Scarlet Witch he had to get his ship to fire on the battleground to stop her from killing him, and with Cap.Marvel he had to use the Power Stone to hit her away which he never had to do for anyone else.
Foxtrol wrote: » The Avengers scene in NY involves them all off doing their individual Avenger thing, across several blocks and height levels, only to converge in one small circle for no apparent reason, including a completely uncontrollable Hulk. That shot gets a complete pass from everybody, as it is incredibly iconic, but is just as contrived. I still contend that if that was any other group in Endgame converging together it wouldn’t get a tiny percent of the focus this has.
NuMarvel wrote: » Yes, the gender of the characters was irrelevant to the movie, yet the male characters got the lion's share of the screen time. And that's probably because men made up the bulk of the main Avengers team in the movie. Of the 10 characters who travel back to the past; only two are women. Black Widow has the start of a good arc here. She was the one keeping the show running five years later, she was the one making sure the world didn't get worse. But once it's decided they're going back in time, she takes a back seat to Cap. And then she's killed off. Specific instances like the examples you give aren't good examples of representation if there aren't more substantive storylines for female characters as well. It can't just be a case of "here's your cool moment, now let the menfolk sort this out". It's like the gay guy at the start of the movie. Yes, it's great that we finally have a visible LGBT character in the movies, but he's a bit character there for no other purpose than to serve a specific plot point. There's more to representation than just briefly appearing on screen. It's being an integral part of the story. And on that score, this movie and Marvel in general, fails.
Mitch Connor wrote: » Nebula and Widow were key to the story.
NuMarvel wrote: » So if gender doesn't matter as the previous poster said, is there a reason we couldn't have had more female avengers on the team?
RayCun wrote: » I think the issues with representation in this movie are an effect of the representation issues in the earlier movies - Iron Man and Captain America had their own trilogies, Shuri, Wasp, and Captain Marvel are recent additions. Iron Man and Captain America are major, established characters that are being killed off in this movie, therefore they get a lot of screen time. Captain Marvel starred in her own movie just a few months ago and will be in more movies to come, so isn't going to get much time in this one. Black Widow does get a lot of time in this movie. Could argue about what that time is used for, sure. Nebula gets quite a lot of time.
Mitch Connor wrote: » I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward. I had kind of hoped that Shuri would replace Iron Man and Captain Marvel would replace Captain America.
Mitch Connor wrote: » Also, having Marvel in more of this movie would have created narrative problems cause having her means you don't need anyone else really - she took out the ship by herself! I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward. I had kind of hoped that Shuri would replace Iron Man and Captain Marvel would replace Captain America. May happen, but dunno. We'll see.
Mitch Connor wrote: » Also, having Marvel in more of this movie would have created narrative problems cause having her means you don't need anyone else really - she took out the ship by herself! I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward.
Zubeneschamali wrote: » Captain Marvel will replace Thor - he is also somewhat overpowered, being a Norse god and all. Steve handed the shield to Falcon, who is the new completely non-superpowered Captain America. Hopefully dies really soon to let Bucky take over. The only reason I can think of for that kid from Iron Man 3 to be in the funeral sequence is if we are going to get Teen Iron Man.
Mitch Connor wrote: » But Thor hasn't gone anywhere. Looks like he is going to continue. As for Falcon replacing Cap - there is more to replacing Cap than taking up the shield. It is the leadership and presence that he brings, and I think Marvel is way more suited to taking over from Cap in that respect than Falcon. As for the kid... i'm hoping no, as there is nothing building to that.
Penn wrote: » I think Sam might take on the mantle of Captain America without becoming the leader of the Avengers. I'd imagine leadership would fall between Thor (depending on how long he sticks around) and Cap.Marvel like you say. Maybe Black Panther as an outside shot given Thor and Captain Marvel are more off-world. And the kid from Iron Man 3 was just there because it made sense for him to be at the funeral given his role in IM3, and he and Tony may have still kept in contact over the years. If the general mantle of Iron Man is going to be passed to anyone, it's more likely they'll go the Ironheart (Riri Williams) route, maybe keeping Don Cheadle in as a mentor for her.
Mitch Connor wrote: » My thinking was without Riri having been introduced at all, and with the reaction to Shui from fans, along with her tech abilities that it would be a very good fit to have her become Iron Heart. She has the brains, the fighting ability and the likable character to do it.
Drumpot wrote: » This narrative has to stop. If you really disliked the “girl power” scene in the movie it doesn’t make you sexist or mean that you have some underlying or insidious reasons for disliking it.
Slutmonkey57b wrote: » No it doesn't "have to stop".If anyone had a problem only with the scene being clunky, or ruining the pacing of the fight, then they would have said so *and left it at that*. But every whinger has also complained about it in terms of it being "metoo sjw forced pc gone mad". As has been pointed out, there are endless examples of clunky "hero" shots which come out of nowhere and ruin the pacing of a marvel film for a couple of seconds. *only this one* gets the vitriol, and only from men who just happen to be "not sexist but". Bucky with the shield in winter soldier. The "let's repeat the circle shot" in ultron. Don't hear the man babies complaining about those.
Slutmonkey57b wrote: » No it doesn't "have to stop". If anyone had a problem only with the scene being clunky, or ruining the pacing of the fight, then they would have said so *and left it at that*. But every whinger has also complained about it in terms of it being "metoo sjw forced pc gone mad". As has been pointed out, there are endless examples of clunky "hero" shots which come out of nowhere and ruin the pacing of a marvel film for a couple of seconds. *only this one* gets the vitriol, and only from men who just happen to be "not sexist but". Bucky with the shield in winter soldier. The "let's repeat the circle shot" in ultron. Don't hear the man babies complaining about those.
Drumpot wrote: » This narrative has to stop. If you really disliked the “girl power” scene in the movie it doesn’t make you sexist or mean that you have some underlying or insidious reasons for disliking it. This is such a lazy online method to defend something. Shaming people into conceding s point by implying if they disagree with your opinion you imply it makes them a misogynist. It’s ironic that the avengers scene you mentioned from the original movie had ALL the avengers in them. Not just the black ones or the woman it was everybody huddled together. But it was also inclusive as was the corny bit in Averngers 2 when they did something similar around the bomb. But that also included everybody. You can’t say well “little girls liked it so you shouldn’t give out about it”. Of course little girls will enjoy things that grown men won’t. There were so many other better ways of doing it, including SW all but killing Thanos on her own. Nobody has a problem with that because it was done well. BW got to sacrifice herself to effectively save the whole plan when it would of been so cliche for Clint to of done it. That’s as heroic as it gets. Valkyrie riding in on s horse and ripping one of those flying things apart would of been more awesome as an independent shot not in the middle of a joke of a scene. There are people who are sexist and will get angry with anything empowering woman but that scene is not one to defend or have a go at those of us who just thought it was shh*t.
Patser wrote: » And to think Thanos was thwarted because a rat managed to accidentally active Antmans shrink machine in the back of a van. The whole plan starts because of that, a rat, that somehow keys in the correct instructions into a 5 year defunct panel in a van. And Strange foresaw that.
pjohnson wrote: » I think you are confused I have seen people here in this thread say the scene was clunky. I have then seen yourself come steaming in calling anyone who has highlighted this scene some kind of incel. #CheckYoOutrage God it must be really depressing to be so desperate to be outraged at nothing instead of watching and enjoying the movie.
Foxtrol wrote: » I’m not sure who you’re having a go at with your last line. Aren’t the people who are seeing ‘agendas’ in a 10 second shot and allowing it to impact their enjoyment of a 3 hour movie, the culmination of 48 hours of MCU movies, the ones who are getting ‘so desperate to be outraged at nothing instead of watching and enjoying the movie’? This never ending outrage circle can get confusing.
Foxtrol wrote: » Your post does a good job at making my point. To me, a contrived shot/moment is a contrived shot/moment, with some being more forced or having a better payoff for me than others, but who is in them doesn’t really matter. When reading your post, it appears that a key issue is the characters involved, specifically being fine when ‘ALL’ characters shots but needing to push back on any of consistent race or gender. This isn’t saying you’re anything like the narrative you seem to have in your head, but I’m consistently not seeing any self-reflection and explanation as to why this shot is much worse and requires so much more vocalization than the many, many contrived shots throughout the 22 MCU movies that are completely given a pass.
Foxtrol wrote: » Feel they really missed an Easter Egg in not making it a squirrel setting off the device instead of a rat
