"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

Vicxas · 30-04-2019 07:43AM

I wonder will they all turn their attention back to Kings Landing now, although they dont have much of an army left....

leggo · 30-04-2019 07:54AM

nix wrote: »

But the issue is in comparison to those fights above against last nights episode, it had pretty much every main character on the field except Cersei, Theon and Yara.. Thats ALOT more pieces on the board than pretty much all of the other fights combined..

The issue seems to be that people are desperate to find an issue tbh. What is the main thing the majority of people here are criticising? Plot armour, not enough people died, convenient timing for main characters to be saved etc.

In Blackwater, Davos was metres from his son who was eviscerated by wildfire, before his son died Davos called out to him and he looked over. He was leading the fleet and, as such, was clearly shown to be in the centre of the explosion that happened. But he somehow made it onto a rock despite being at the core of this explosion. Tyrion was knocked out and survived because Tywin showed up at the EXACT moment he would've otherwise been killed. Stannis somehow survived despite being in King's Landing.

In Castle Black, every named character of the Night's Watch (saved for Pyp and Grenn who were told to hold the gate) survived despite the Wildlings severely outnumbering them and the Night's Watch as a whole being decimated in the battle. But the people needed to move the plot forward survived. Sam killed a Thenn despite having zero fighting experience and his training being rigged by Jon to stop Alliser Thorne bullying him!

In Hardhome, ZERO significant characters met their demise despite the entire Army of the Dead descending upon a much smaller collection of people who weren't prepared for battle in any way, had no plan or any discipline.

In Battle of the Bastards, Jon literally stared down the entire Bolton cavalry, having been knocked off his horse by a sky full of arrows (all missed him), and not one horse or sword that passed him managed to touch him. He and Tormund then survived an inescapable crush when the Nights of the Vale showed up at the EXACT moment they should have died.

People are acting like this battle broke rules that GoT has established, citing characters who didn't die in battle as examples, but a quick look back at previous battles shows this is actually totally consistent with Thrones, in fact this battle significantly upped the ante. Not only did significant characters die at a much higher rate, but they also wiped away entire civilisations in the Dothraki and White Walkers. They want to use these reasons to slate this, but at the same time cite examples of previous battles that are more guilty of the same thing. They were fine with it then but aren't now.

And what has changed aside from GoT being more popular? People like to play the "It got bad when they ran out of source material argument"...but BoB and Hardhome weren't in the books and people loved them. It's just the band people liked 'before they were cool' tbh. Now it's the biggest show in the world, you've got the few weirdos who are like "Oh this thing that's the same as it was when I loved it is bad now because the important thing is that I have a different view to the majority."

osarusan · 30-04-2019 08:15AM

endacl wrote: »

There are dragons and zombies in the show.

What is this 'credulity' you speak of?

That's a bit empty isn't it? I mean, you could apply that to any fantasy or sci-fi ever made (or any fiction at all really).

Just because a story contains dragons and zombies doesn't mean it can't be criticized for what people see as unrealistic, inconsistent or contrived scenes or plot development.

When I watched the episode last night, there were a few times I was shocked at just how unlikely/unrealistic certain things were. When the Dothraki rode off into the darkness, notwithstanding the fact that it looked superb on screen, I actually said the words 'oh for f**k sake' as it was just such a stupid thing to do.

In general, I do think things are more contrived than before. But I honestly wonder if we, as an audience that is completely used to Disney endings where everything turns out alright in the end and nobody important dies, would really accept anything other than something similar here. And maybe it has to be contrived to shape the ending into something we will accept.

If, for example, the dead had just swept through Winterfell and then the entire island of Westeros over the next few episodes, most people would absolutely hate for the show to end that way.

I think we like the 'unpredictability' of things, but only within certain limits too.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 08:19AM

leggo wrote: »

And what has changed aside from GoT being more popular? People like to play the "It got bad when they ran out of source material argument"...but BoB and Hardhome weren't in the books and people loved them. It's just the band people liked 'before they were cool' tbh. Now it's the biggest show in the world, you've got the few weirdos who are like "Oh this thing that's the same as it was when I loved it is bad now because the important thing is that I have a different view to the majority."

To try and boil down legitimate criticisms into a horsesh*t claim like this is truly embarrassing.

There have been some mind-blowingly idiotic takes in this thread so far but you have just beaten them all by miles.

GreeBo · 30-04-2019 08:25AM

"Quick! Quick! Someone light the trenches!! Ohmigod weareallgoingtodie!"

No worries lads...I'll just saunter out at waltz speed and light them for ya...meanwhile THE GUY WITH THE FLAMING SWORD stands behind me...

weldoninhio · 30-04-2019 08:27AM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Don't think so. I thought
he was sending ravens for reinforcements from somewhere. Just don't ask me where.

He flew to the night king, no? To show that he had warged and was defenceless?? To draw the night king in. Bran knew Arya would be there. He was the one that gave her the dagger at the exact same spot she killed the NK.

fitz · 30-04-2019 08:29AM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Have no issue with Arya killing NK, just don't understand how she got there.

Little detail spotted on rewatch was the WW who turned his head before Arya attacking NK - his hair moves, like a gust of wind blowing past him. It's obviously Arya racing past.

TerrorFirmer · 30-04-2019 08:33AM

leggo wrote: »

And what has changed aside from GoT being more popular? People like to play the "It got bad when they ran out of source material argument"...but BoB and Hardhome weren't in the books and people loved them. It's just the band people liked 'before they were cool' tbh. Now it's the biggest show in the world, you've got the few weirdos who are like "Oh this thing that's the same as it was when I loved it is bad now because the important thing is that I have a different view to the majority."

I've honestly posted once, to give my opinion. I'm one of those who agrees that the show has gone downhill massively in the last two seasons.

We've all given perfectly valid reasons that are shared among a lot of us.

You seem utterly obsessed with attacking everyone who disagrees with your own opinion, and to be honest, all these 'condradictions' you're waffling on about are largely missing the point anyway.

Take a break from the thread, seriously. You've had your say, arguing with everyone in circles endlessly and then borderline abusing them isn't healthy.

ThunbergsAreGo · 30-04-2019 08:34AM

RickBlaine wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole white walkers story has been built up for years. But it felt like they just wanted to get that story over with.

To be fair, 55 days of night shoots and one of the longest battles ever filmed for TV is hardly just getting the story over with.

Ah here very little given to a why or even any proper interactions, no real prolonged set backs for the main characters . The WW might as well have been zombies.

The white walkers felt like the real story, the evil to be defeated. The rest, who sits on the iron throne, is temporary and feels like a prologue

ThunbergsAreGo · 30-04-2019 08:35AM

RickBlaine wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole white walkers story has been built up for years. But it felt like they just wanted to get that story over with.

To be fair, 55 days of night shoots and one of the longest battles ever filmed for TV is hardly just getting the story over with.

Ah here very little given to a why or even any proper interactions, no real prolonged set backs for the main characters . The WW might as well have been zombies.

The white walkers felt like the real story, the evil to be defeated. The rest, who sits on the iron throne, is temporary and feels like an addendum. It feels backwards

Optimalprimerib · 30-04-2019 08:36AM

S. Goodspeed wrote: »

When the NK approached Bran I had same sense of disbelief as when Ned Stark was about to be beheaded. I was hoping for a miracle then and couldn’t believe when it didn’t come. The Bran rescue really sums up the change in writing / direction. There’s no way GRRM would take the easy “hero out of nowhere” route, the outcome may have been the same but it would have made a lot more sense and a lot more key characters would have died.

There might be a sting in the tail for the audience when “we” face Cersi and co but i’m beginning to think we are gonna get a very Disney ending to all of this which is the most non-GoT thing imaginable.

The hero out of nowhere happened countless times. Battle of the bastards, battle with the wildlings, blackwater, the Stark uncle turning up to rescue bran. Even the dog in season one.

GreeBo · 30-04-2019 08:37AM

naughtb4 wrote: »

Ah here very little given to a why or even any proper interactions, no real prolonged set backs for the main characters . The WW might as well have been zombies.

The white walkers felt like the real story, the evil to be defeated. The rest, who sits on the iron throne, is temporary and feels like a prologue

It felt a lot like a Walking Dead episode.

An awful lot of dragons flying around doing nothing when a couple of flames could have made a big difference to the number of people left alive at the end (i.e. to fight Cersei)

A choke point is what was needed yet they decided to fight them in the open and overwhelm a keep. Should have abandoned Winterfell and fought them at a natural chokepoint around water.

mightyreds · 30-04-2019 08:38AM

Just looking at some of the reaction videos and I know a lot are for show/hits on youtube but I felt exactly the same, when the night king was walking up to Brann I was so tense I was delighted when Arya appeared out of nowhere , I was so lost in it at that stage I didn't think about plot armour or main characters dying , I didn't want any to die anyway I still want to see Tyrion/Jamie v Cersei/Bronn , The hound v The Mountain seems like its going to be Sansa v Danearys and I think Sansa has learned a thing or 2 from little finger for the final few episodes.

Camera shaking and darkness was a real pain have to agree with that, made a lot of it unwatchable.

GavRedKing · 30-04-2019 08:38AM

I loved it anyway.

If peoples main gripe is that not enough main characters died, I'd imagine the next 3 episodes will satisfy their blood lust.

Theres no way everyone makes it through the next 3 episodes an dI cant see such a happy ending to the show after they pulled a victory out of the fire at Winterfell.

I think its a false dawn, the army is obliterated but they'll feel that surviving the dead, they should be able to re-group and take Kings Landing.

Few issues with the episode but not enough that I didnt enjoy it, one of my main gripes was Drogon landing and getting swarmed by the dead, I'd imagine no amount of blades should be able to penetrate a fully grown dragons scales but he shuldnt have been on the ground long enough to be swarmed.

Theres no sign of Rhaegal, who took a lot of damage in fighting Viserion who tore at his under belly before he ripped Viserions throat out.

If shes going into battle with only 1 dragon and a tiny army, theres no way they'll take on the GC and Iron Fleet and lay siege to KL.

NuMarvel · 30-04-2019 08:44AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

He flew to the night king, no? To show that he had warged and was defenceless?? To draw the night king in. Bran knew Arya would be there. He was the one that gave her the dagger at the exact same spot she killed the NK.

That might have been the initial plan, but he kept warging after that, right up to the point just before the NK appeared in the godswood.

I got the sense he was off somewhere else, but I might be overthinking it. If he was, we'll presumably find out where in later episodes.

abcabc123123 · 30-04-2019 08:45AM

Mokuba wrote: »

To try and boil down legitimate criticisms into a horsesh*t claim like this is truly embarrassing.

There have been some mind-blowingly idiotic takes in this thread so far but you have just beaten them all by miles.

No no, he's right, nothing has changed, nothing at all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpL6Fwu0wkw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHP0EOOLGtc

murpho999 · 30-04-2019 08:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

So even though the darkness was done on purpose and you thought it added to the show, you made it brighter anyways?

Yes so instead of just moaning about it I just did something that suited my setting and worked for me. Episode was still dark and it added to the tension as I said.
Other people can do this too but instead they just complain.

Asus X540L · 30-04-2019 08:53AM

So what dragons survived?
The undead one died what about the two live ones?
And what about Ghost?

GreeBo · 30-04-2019 08:54AM

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes so instead of just moaning about it I just did something that suited my setting and worked for me. Episode was still dark and it added to the tension as I said.
Other people can do this too but instead they just complain.

LOL.
Instead of just complaining about the poor dialogue I over-dubbed an episode of ScoobyDoo while I watched it.

Just lol.

Dempsey · 30-04-2019 08:55AM

Excellent episode but not without its faults

It was clear to see that the army was thrown together and didnt really have a proper commander that anyone fully respected. Everything was rushed together, i.e. not enough time to dig a trench big enough to put siege weapons inside. Everyone did what they knew best. They were not greater than the sum of their parts, i.e. Dothraki just charged into darkness and were overwhelmed because while they are great in the open field battle, they couldnt see the enemy and they were swarmed, horses and all.

I wasnt happy with the plot armour the main characters at the front of the battlefield had. Jorah should have not come back from the initial charge, Brienne should have died in the initial contact aswell. Sam and Jaime too. They should of all just been overwhelmed by sheer numbers and not making a big deal about their deaths and how quickly they were gone would have served the show best and given the battle more gravitas. Fan Service should not have happened

Why did the NK & his band of WW expose themselves so much to confront Bran, what was the motivation for a tactically inept move?

What was the point of Bran warging into ravens other than to get a better view of the battle??

I didnt expect the NK to be defeated at Winterfell and certainly not by a makeshift army that didnt have the numbers.

Many missed opportunities and the show will be judged harshly for it considering the standards they set

one man clappin · 30-04-2019 08:55AM

I enjoyed the episode but cant help but feel a small bit cheated the way the battle took place. I would have liked to see one or two of the White Walkers being fought by some of the main characters and being killed.
Also I have a terrible feeling that Varys will have a huge part to play in this yet. He is the one that is really playing the Game of Thrones.

lawred2 · 30-04-2019 08:56AM

Also why no burning pitch or oil to chuck over the castle walls as would be standard prep for a siege...

would have had the added benefit of setting those dead feckers alight

major bill · 30-04-2019 08:56AM

GavRedKing wrote: »

I loved it anyway.

If peoples main gripe is that not enough main characters died, I'd imagine the next 3 episodes will satisfy their blood lust.

It’s more the unrealistic approach that was taken in last nights episode, Sam should’ve been a goner! Jon Snow surviving against the odds in Battle AGAIN! One handed Jaime making it into castle! Jorah surviving the initial charge at the start! Think yer right about the next 3 episodes my take is it will turn out that man were the true evil in the world and they will discover this in the next few episodes

lawred2 · 30-04-2019 08:58AM

major bill wrote: »

It’s more the unrealistic approach that was taken in last nights episode, Sam should’ve been a goner! Jon Snow surviving against the odds in Battle AGAIN! One handed Jaime making it into castle! Jorah surviving the initial charge at the start! Think yer right about the next 3 episodes my take is it will turn out that man were the true evil in the world and they will discover this in the next few episodes

Jon was a non entity in that episode. Ran about like a headless fool. Achieved nothing of note. Looked seriously foolish.

Asus X540L · 30-04-2019 08:58AM

one man clappin wrote: »

I enjoyed the episode but cant help but feel a small bit cheated the way the battle took place. I would have liked to see one or two of the White Walkers being fought by some of the main characters and being killed.
Also I have a terrible feeling that Varys will have a huge part to play in this yet. He is the one that is really playing the Game of Thrones.

Hope Varys goes next

Asus X540L · 30-04-2019 09:00AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Jon was a non entity in that episode. Ran about like a headless fool. Achieved nothing of note. Looked seriously foolish.

What's new?
Remember the battle of the bastards

dominatinMC · 30-04-2019 09:00AM

Just to add my two cents now that I've watched the episode twice.

On first viewing, I was completely blown away by what I witnessed. The adrenaline was still running high after watching a cinematic tour de force - albeit on the small screen. This is an achievement in itself; the visuals, cinematography, music - the scale, grandeur, bombast, and ambition of it all is to be admired. This was LoTR on the small screen, which 10 years ago would never have been conceivable. However, therein also lies the issue I think. GoT has gradually morphed into LoTR, which is not what it started out as. Maybe it was always the intention of the writers for it to transpire in this manner, obviously as we reach the "end game", there will be decisive battles, but I think we are getting these battles at the expense of complex machinations which GoT was originally famous for.

I liked a lot of things about the episode, and the visuals will live long in the memory (Dothraki charge, dragons "dancing" over Winterfell, etc.), but there are a number of issues which came to the fore on watching it again, in a more objective manner. The biggest flaw for me was the use of the White Walkers - they have been talked about since EP1! Show us how powerful and menacing they are! They should have engaged in battles with some of the key characters (Jamie, Ser Jorah), maybe killed one or two of them. I'm not all for killing key characters, but doing so would have showed us how evil these White Walkers really were. Ultimately, the moment the NK was about to kill Bran kind-of encapsulated the direction GoT has taken recently, and how this has diverted from its past. This scene had all the hallmarks of Baelor, when Ned was about to die. I remember roaring at the TV back then that someone will save Ned - a la every other show. Not to be, this was GoT. Now flash forward seven seasons, and we have a similar scenario, and Bran was heroically saved - a la every other show. After all the build-up of the White Walkers, I can't help but feel their untimely demise was anti-climatic.

SeanJ09 · 30-04-2019 09:00AM

Is the Dornish army still readily available to help the remaining Northern forces then? Also Dario Nhaeris and the second sons maybe? Don't see how they stand a chance versus Cersei's army otherwise.

Triceratops Ballet · 30-04-2019 09:02AM

fitz wrote: »

I posted a bit on this over on the book thread: The music took me out of it towards the end...Ramin Djawadi re-used some compositional techniques that are core to his Westworld themes, and it started to sound like music from that show. It was bloody lazy.

On rewatch last night, it was even worse, imo. First time round it took me out of the moment cause it sounded like Westworld (he totally reuses melodic ideas from that theme!), but second time round, it's not just that. It's far too pretty. When the strings come back after the solo piano section (which was quite effective), it's far too concerned with sounding epic and beautiful, and it's just totally disconnected tone wise from what's happening on screen. If you're noticing the music, he's blown it, and it's not the first time he's done it in big scenes (season 6 finale was another good example).

What's worse is he'd done a great job up to then building tension. Nothing shandy the piece above in isolation, but it's a bad piece of scoring imo cause it just wasn't appropriate.

Agree with this, parts of the composition reminded me of a RHCP song and I could only think of the lyrics of it through that whole section on both watches!!

Asus X540L · 30-04-2019 09:03AM

SeanJ09 wrote: »

Is the Dornish army still readily available to help the remaining Northern forces then? Also Dario Nhaeris and the second sons maybe? Don't see how they stand a chance versus Cersei's army otherwise.

How many dragons left?

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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