"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

GSPfan · 30-04-2019 01:11AM

@ GillLebowski

You’re mad if you don’t think Arya is a fan favourite. Depending on who is asking the question it is generally Tyrian Jon and Arya in the top 3 at any given time. Sure she’s now a Night King killing, face changing, silent ninja, who may end up sitting on the iron throne at this stage. I’d say if she did there’ll be some evidence somewhere that it was always going to be her.

30-04-2019 01:13AM

Im going to be super pissed if it was Sky who ruined this for me as a great visual experience at least, I definitely would have enjoyed it more i hadnt been so annoyed

nix · 30-04-2019 01:15AM

leggo wrote: »

For those saying the show ‘used to’ always have big characters die in major battles, I did a bit of research and here is an extensive list of the named characters that died in the Battle of Blackwater:

Ser Mandon
Davos’ son

And that’s it. Every other main character survived. Shall we go on?

Castle Black

Pyp
Grenn
Ygritte
The Thenn Jon killed

Hardhome

Karsi (who was introduced that episode)
Another Thenn
A White Walker

Battle of the Bastards

Rickon
Wun Wun
Ramsey

Winterfell

Theon
Lyanna
Beric
Jorah
Edd
The Night King
The White Walkers, Viserion & entire Army of the Dead
The Dothrakis

Yeah, this show has really lost its balls huh? :pac:

Battle of the black water didnt really have a lot of main characters on the field though, of those that got away, there was Stannis and Davos, and then on the other side you had the hound, who buggered off mid way.. and then you had.... uhhhh Bronn.. and thats it.. until Tyrion joined the fight and was badly injured..

Castle black, again not a lot of "Main" characters.. out of those that survived who were fighting, you had Jon and Sam.. And Tormund.. everybody else was low down on the shock kill factor.. I s'pose Ed, but he was safe up on top of the wall..

Hardholme doesnt really count, it was more of a retreat than a battle, Jon was the only one in real trouble, but we know he was never gonna die there, it was just a Night king Flex episode really..

Battle of the bastards, i agree, more should have died here probably, but i never really liked this battle either anyway myself, as someone else had mentioned, this is where the plot armour started to become a bigger thing..

But the issue is in comparison to those fights above against last nights episode, it had pretty much every main character on the field except Cersei, Theon and Yara.. Thats ALOT more pieces on the board than pretty much all of the other fights combined..

But again, not many are really complaining that not "enough" were killed, its just that with how the fight played out, fairly one sided in favour of the undead, yet the majority of the main characters were able to survive it.. They should have made it more believable, maybe have them retreat into the keep and board up the doors and funnel the undead, instead of just showing them all standing in the open and fending off legions of undead from every direction.. It just looked dumb :pac:

But i also do think, with the amount of key players in the fight, there should have been atleast one big surprising death with some dramatic oomph to give the episode more, as it needed more IMO.

The Golden Miller · 30-04-2019 01:16AM

Arghus wrote: »

Did you really think the most recent deaths were the most significant in the show's run?

Okay, Theon and Jorah were big characters, but if you didn't see their demises coming a million miles off then you must be blind beyond even what a darkly-lit episode can excuse.

You'd put the deaths of minorish characters like Ed or Beric as being more significant then most of The Stark clan? Really? Interesting perspective...

I purposely said in my initial reply to you that it isn't about it being a battle episode per-se, just that the fact that there was no meaningful deviations in terms of who made it and who didn't that couldn't be predicted well in advance. No surprises, no real shuddering impact. It illustrates a lot.

The real facts are that Game of Thrones does not take risks anymore with the fates of its characters and it hasn't for over two seasons.

But the story is ultimately about these last few major characters. How can it be finished as envisioned if they are killed for the sake of it?

The characters killed 3 seasons ago were a shock, but ultimately were minor characters, who were never part of the wider story. What you're suggesting is like killing Harry Potter in books 5, or Luke in Empire....how can you finish the story without the central characters?

Arghus · 30-04-2019 01:16AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But they were expendable, because even if we didn't know it then, they ultimately weren't main characters to the show. They were used for shock value, and once that was out of the way, you needed the actual main characters to tell the story.

And Theon was a major character

But, sure, that argument makes no sense.

At the time they were killed they were major characters. Understandably, they stopped being important once they died!

If you take that line of logic to something similar then why is Janet Leigh getting killed off in the first 40 minutes of Psycho considered a shock? Yeah, she's the main protagonist in the film until that point and was the bigger movie star at the time, but, sure it isn't really a twist - she was expendable too, that twist wasn't really a twist because the movie was about someone else?

Twenty Grand · 30-04-2019 01:20AM

Arghus wrote: »

Did you really think the most recent deaths were the most significant in the show's run?

Okay, Theon and Jorah were big characters, but if you didn't see their demises coming a million miles off then you must be blind beyond even what a darkly-lit episode can excuse.

You'd put the deaths of minorish characters like Ed or Beric as being more significant then most of The Stark clan? Really? Interesting perspective...

I purposely said in my initial reply to you that it isn't about it being a battle episode per-se, just that the fact that there was no meaningful deviations in terms of who made it and who didn't that couldn't be predicted well in advance. No surprises, no real shuddering impact. It illustrates a lot.

The real facts are that Game of Thrones does not take risks anymore with the fates of its characters and it hasn't for over two seasons.

I just don't think there's enough characters left to just kill off gratuitously.
Every main character died for a reason. Their death changed the path for other characters. There's no time for that now, no time for characters to reflect on the death of someone important, no time to introduce someone new.

You can say "Let's kill of Brienne" but why? What's the benefit and payoff bar gratuity?

The early GoT felt totally unpredictable, but the end was always going to be "Night king Defeated" & "Someone on the Iron Throne"
Everything in the previous 7 seasons was character development and fantastically interesting arseing around until all the characters arrived together in Winterfell last week.

They have just resolved the first point and have 3 episodes to resolve the second and that's it.

RickBlaine · 30-04-2019 01:21AM

In relation to risk taking, Jon killing the NK would have been the safest and most obvious choice so Arya killing him instead is a risk.

We know that D+D discussed the fates of the core characters with GRRM who gave them an outline of their future plots in the upcoming books. It is entirely possible Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne, Jon, Thormound and the Starks didn't die in this episode because of this outline by GRRM. We really won't know for certain until the books are released but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to assumptions and just blame the show for lack of risk taking.

And I'm sure some of the above characters will be killed in the next 3 episodes.

The Golden Miller · 30-04-2019 01:21AM

Arghus wrote: »

But, sure, that argument makes no sense.

At the time they were killed they were major characters. Understandably, they stopped being important once they died!

If you take that line of logic to something similar then why is Janet Leigh getting killed off in the first 40 minutes of Psycho considered a shock? Yeah, she's the main protagonist in the film until that point and was the bigger movie star at the time, but, sure it isn't really a twist - she was expendable too, that twist wasn't really a twist because the movie was about someone else?

But we didn't know the vision of the story at that point. We were led to believe they were major characters for shock value and entertainment. They died. The writer/s then had to get on with finishing the story with the characters who we now know are the actual major players.

GillLebowski · 30-04-2019 01:23AM

GSPfan wrote: »

@ GillLebowski

You’re mad if you don’t think Arya is a fan favourite. Depending on who is asking the question it is generally Tyrian Jon and Arya in the top 3 at any given time. Sure she’s now a Night King killing, face changing, silent ninja, who may end up sitting on the iron throne at this stage. I’d say if she did there’ll be some evidence somewhere that it was always going to be her.

Anyone I talk to would usually have

1. Jon
2. Tyrion
3. Dany (Before this season)
4. Theon/Jorah/Sam (No idea why)
5. Brienne/Bronn
6. Arya

I haven't read any other forums or any of the other posts apart from the season 8 ones so it might be different on here or the rest of the internet, but above is what I usually found...

I doubt she'll ever be Queen, or even a Lady... I reckon depending on who's on the Iron Throne, if it's someone on the "good" side, she'll be the new commander of the King's Guard...

The Golden Miller · 30-04-2019 01:26AM

Theon was my favourite character, never understood why everyone wanted his arc to finish two seasons ago. Always found him interesting. Best acted character too. His final redemption was good

RollieFingers · 30-04-2019 01:27AM

Cersei is usually pretty high on favorite character lists of people I know too, one of the best 'bad' characters ever on TV. Tyrion, Bronn and Davos usually mentioned as well, Arya not so much.

Arghus · 30-04-2019 01:37AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But we didn't know the vision of the story at that point. We were led to believe they were major characters for shock value and entertainment. They died. The writer/s then had to get on with finishing the story with the characters who we now know are the actual major players.

I wasn't expecting them to kill off any of the core group of main characters - Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime - who are, I agree necessary for the completion of the story. I'm not suggesting that the final few episodes should have been the adventures of people we've never heard of before.

But, there was a lot of others - Brienne, Grey-Worm, Sam, Tormund, Gendry, Varys, Davos, Pod - who survived, handily enough, in most cases, frankly impossible odds against a theoretically untiring and endlessly regenerating enemy horde. Does that not stretch credulity a bit for you, at least a little bit? The scale of the battle and the supposed threat of the enemy was multiples more than any other previously comparable encounter in the show's history - but yet most emerge totally unscathed. Because they are fan favourites. It's pandering.

This is not the same show that punched Oberyn Martell's teeth out of his head, before literally bursting his head open.

The Golden Miller · 30-04-2019 01:41AM

Arghus wrote: »

I wasn't expecting them to kill off any of the core group of main characters - Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime - who are, I agree necessary for the completion of the story. I'm not suggesting that the final few episodes should have been the adventures of people we've never heard of before.

But, there was a lot of others - Brienne, Grey-Worm, Sam, Tormund, Gendry, Varys, Davos, Pod - who survived, handily enough, in most cases, frankly impossible odds against a theoretically untiring and endlessly regenerating enemy horde. Does that not stretch credulity a bit for you, at least a little bit? The scale of the battle and the supposed threat of the enemy was multiples more than any other previously comparable encounter in the show's history - but yet most emerge totally unscathed. Because they are fan favourites. It's pandering.

This is not the same show that punched Oberyn Martell's teeth out of his head, before literally bursting his head open.

I agree to a point with some of those characters, but they may have something in store for us yet. I doubt they are kept around because they are popular, I'm sure there's been a plan for them from the start

nix · 30-04-2019 01:52AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Theon was my favourite character, never understood why everyone wanted his arc to finish two seasons ago. Always found him interesting. Best acted character too. His final redemption was good

I agree, but i really wish he didnt run in so recklessly and die in one hit, in slow mo of course, the episode really needed more slow mo... show a bit of swordsmanship like, in normal speed plz :rolleyes::pac:

derfderf · 30-04-2019 02:42AM

I wonder are they going to completely side step the reason for Jon Snow bring brought back to life.
If Arya is Azor, and Beric was brought back to life to save her, fair enough.
Why Jon though? Does the lord of light care who ends up on the iron throne?

fash · 30-04-2019 03:00AM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Ah come on, it's been shown now that Melisandre foresaw Arya being the one to kill him, all the way back in Season 3. Plus Bran giving her the knife she'd use back in season 7.

There was a few potential people for who would kill the NK in the end, but GRRM has never been one for choosing the obvious option.

That's a retcon - if Melisandre knew in season 3, Shireen would not have been burnt at the stake.

endacl · 30-04-2019 03:03AM

Dragons:

Boobies:

endacl · 30-04-2019 03:06AM

Arghus wrote: »

Does that not stretch credulity a bit for you, at least a little bit?

There are dragons and zombies in the show.

What is this 'credulity' you speak of?

fash · 30-04-2019 03:12AM

shrewd wrote: »

haha, my thoughts exactly.
You could tell the G.R.R Martins did not influence/write that episode.

A lot of meh/wtf/predictable scenes but i enjoyed nonetheless. 6/10.

Arya killing the Night king was awesome.
The Night king surviving Drogon fire was cool and hilarious.

For me, the "mid-level" and "close level" aspects of the episode were amazing - there was a decent ebb and flow - it is hard to do that with a relentless continuous fight- and I'm not sure I've ever seen a fight scene as extended as this ever, great music, visuals and imagery etc. which were fantastic.
It's the high level stuff that failed -- and the crappy military tactics!

Chris_Heilong · 30-04-2019 03:16AM

That was both good and bad, good direction and the action was exciting but the story telling had issues and all the build up from the other season was thrown out the door as the producers said if Jon had of fought the Night king it would be too cliché so they just threw Aryia in to surprise people as she has no connection with the whitewalkers at all in the story and only learned of their existence recently, IMO it was not earned and was a bad move not having Jon cross swords.

J. Marston · 30-04-2019 03:21AM

"Could tell GRRM didn't influence/write that episode."

George can't even influence/write his own books anymore.

30-04-2019 04:35AM

It's rather odd to think that the first Long Night spawned legends and myths all the way to East Essos, and this time, no one south of Winterfell will believe it even happened.

Dany and co will go south and people will be like "Yeah, sure. That definitely happened."

Even the maesters won't believe it or record it.

S. Goodspeed · 30-04-2019 05:52AM

When the NK approached Bran I had same sense of disbelief as when Ned Stark was about to be beheaded. I was hoping for a miracle then and couldn’t believe when it didn’t come. The Bran rescue really sums up the change in writing / direction. There’s no way GRRM would take the easy “hero out of nowhere” route, the outcome may have been the same but it would have made a lot more sense and a lot more key characters would have died.

There might be a sting in the tail for the audience when “we” face Cersi and co but i’m beginning to think we are gonna get a very Disney ending to all of this which is the most non-GoT thing imaginable.

fitz · 30-04-2019 05:53AM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Have to say, love this bit of music from the episode

I posted a bit on this over on the book thread: The music took me out of it towards the end...Ramin Djawadi re-used some compositional techniques that are core to his Westworld themes, and it started to sound like music from that show. It was bloody lazy.

On rewatch last night, it was even worse, imo. First time round it took me out of the moment cause it sounded like Westworld (he totally reuses melodic ideas from that theme!), but second time round, it's not just that. It's far too pretty. When the strings come back after the solo piano section (which was quite effective), it's far too concerned with sounding epic and beautiful, and it's just totally disconnected tone wise from what's happening on screen. If you're noticing the music, he's blown it, and it's not the first time he's done it in big scenes (season 6 finale was another good example).

What's worse is he'd done a great job up to then building tension. Nothing shandy the piece above in isolation, but it's a bad piece of scoring imo cause it just wasn't appropriate.

fitz · 30-04-2019 05:57AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's rather odd to think that the first Long Night spawned legends and myths all the way to East Essos, and this time, no one south of Winterfell will believe it even happened.

Dany and co will go south and people will be like "Yeah, sure. That definitely happened."

Even the maesters won't believe it or record it.

Reckon Bran warging was to observe and "record" the memory of what happened. Possibly to share later?

30-04-2019 07:07AM

The whole white walkers story has been built up for years. But it felt like they just wanted to get that story over with.

SchrodingersCat · 30-04-2019 07:34AM

leggo wrote: »

Number of people you’ve listed there who died in battle:

Zero.

The battle with by far the most significant deaths in the show’s run:

The one that just happened.

But don’t mind me over here with the facts...

Walder Fuppin' Frey killed more main characters than the Night King.

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RickBlaine · 30-04-2019 07:35AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole white walkers story has been built up for years. But it felt like they just wanted to get that story over with.

To be fair, 55 days of night shoots and one of the longest battles ever filmed for TV is hardly just getting the story over with.

Shanotheslayer · 30-04-2019 07:37AM

I liked it. I do think more deaths probably should have happend.

Was fully expecting Grey worm to die ( He's one of my favourite characters) so I was very surprised when he didn't.

Thought Gendry would die also.

Have no issue with Arya killing NK, just don't understand how she got there.

XsApollo · 30-04-2019 07:38AM

I watched in on my phone as I am abroad and couldn’t wait till I got home and I found it bright enough.
Thought the episode was brilliant but they are just trying to get the end I feel.
I think it’s harder to write now obviously because there isn’t much scheming or anything left to do.
Everybody knows who’s doing what and aligned to who and we are just waiting for the end.

Bronn is possibly the only one that could throw in a shock at this stage or Dany herself.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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