"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

WhiteMemento9 · 29-04-2019 06:32PM

GSPfan wrote: »

I know you won’t accept this answer but I’ll give it anyway.

This episode establishes how a drop of blood alerted them to her presence so somehow sneaking by a few hundred of them to be able to get within striking distance of the King is just a bit jarring. The fact she’s flying through the air is also bizarre as we don’t know if she was jumping from ground level or higher up.

It seems like they sacrificed believability for surprise which is fine cause it worked for most but not for some.

I agree to an extent but think that was only because they failed in the build-up with the blood dropping scene. I found her appearances over the course of the episode to be quite jarring and odd. We see her kicking ass with that pole thing destroying the enemy left and right. Then it cuts to the scene with her bumbling inside trying to avoid them looking like she has lost her 'power' or something. It was quite odd. Then you have her rediscovering herself and heading off to find NK. If they had left the scene out with the blood and just showed her kicking ass it probably would have built better as she is supposed to be this stealthy Ninja that can avoid detection, as that was the whole MO of her going off training.

RickBlaine · 29-04-2019 06:35PM

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I agree to an extent but think that was only because they failed in the build-up with the blood dropping scene. I found her appearances over the course of the episode to be quite jarring and odd. We see her kicking ass with that pole thing destroying the enemy left and right. Then it cuts to the scene with her bumbling inside trying to avoid them looking like she has lost her 'power' or something. It was quite odd. Then you have her rediscovering herself and heading off to find NK. If they had left the scene out with the blood and just showed her kicking ass it probably would have built better as she is supposed to be this stealthy Ninja that can avoid detection, as that was the whole MO of her going off training.

She was hit quite hard in the head against a wall. That caused her to be dazed for a while. It might not be obvious in the show but in the documentary they specifically mention this. I think they referred to it as having the "old Arya" back for a while.

29-04-2019 06:35PM

Whelo79 wrote: »

What a fantastic episode of TV. Wow.

It was not without it's flaws, some more obvious than others, and I understand why some people may feel aggrieved and unsatisfied but I thought it was enthralling from the first second to the last. I've watched it twice today and will watch it again when the wife gets home. 80 odd minutes of high drama that probably included a little over a couple of hundred words of dialogue. That is some achievement.

I thought both Arya being the one to kill the NK and how she ultimately done it were excellent choices, I've loved her journey throughout the show and looking back they have tee'd it up so well for her. You have some people saying it should have been Jon who killed him but that would have been too obvious. I would have liked to see a good battle between Jon and the NK just before the NK raised the dead, and maybe Jon seeing one of the main characters (Sam, Brienne, Jamie, Thormond, Greyworm) being killed (with no fuss or big dramatic set up) as he is running through the courtyard. Other than that I am happy to take the episode as it was delivered to us. Fantastic.

I can't wait for the final 3 episodes. It's time for someone to finally win at The Game of Thrones.

Obvious but fitting, considering that's what the whole story has been leading up to, Arya doing it feels like a surprise twist for the sake of it, that undoes a lot of the groundwork. A lot of the good will be gone now from the re-watching and re-reading of Jon's arc, as it's all a bit pointless now.

RickBlaine · 29-04-2019 06:40PM

Isn't George RR Martin's whole writing mantra to subvert the reader's expectations and surprise. Jon killing the NK would have been obvious but Arya killing him is a surprise.

I do have have problem with the fact that Jon never really had a proper showdown with the NK. Remember how amazing his fight with the WW was in Hardhome. Something similar would have been great for this episode, and then towards the end when it seems that the NK will beat Jon, then Arya comes in to help.

As I said earlier today, his showdown with the dragon didn't make much narrative sense. It should have been Dany vs Dragon and then Jon vs NK.

WhiteMemento9 · 29-04-2019 06:42PM

RickBlaine wrote: »

She was hit quite hard in the head against a wall. That caused her to be dazed for a while. It might not be obvious in the show but in the documentary they specifically mention this. I think they referred to it as having the "old Arya" back for a while.

Fair enough I must have missed the knock to the head. Seems an odd decision as it was already perfectly set up for her. It would have felt far more satisfying after watching her kick ass to then see her nimbly evade the Dead without a breeze on her way out of the castle towards NK. You would have had a real sense that she was fully capable of the deed that happened.

Whelo79 · 29-04-2019 06:45PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Obvious but fitting, considering that's what the whole story has been leading up to, Arya doing it feels like a surprise twist for the sake of it, that undoes a lot of the groundwork. A lot of the good will be gone now from the re-watching and re-reading of Jon's arc, as it's all a bit pointless now.

The whole show has been leading up to who sits on the Iron Throne, everything else is a side piece!

Whelo79 · 29-04-2019 06:47PM

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Fair enough I must have missed the knock to the head. Seems an odd decision as it was already perfectly set up for her. It would have felt far more satisfying after watching her kick ass to then see her nimbly evade the Dead without a breeze on her way out of the castle towards NK. You would have had a real sense that she was fully capable of the deed that happened.

That scene was also to reinforce her stealthiness. She could move around the walkers without sound. A drop of blood was louder than her movements.

She, like others, was having a moment of doubt and utter fear after the bump to the head and escaping near death. It took Mellisandra to remind her of her purpose and put her back on track.

WhiteMemento9 · 29-04-2019 06:53PM

Whelo79 wrote: »

That scene was also to reinforce her stealthiness. She could move around the walkers without sound. A drop of blood was louder than her movements.

She, like others, was having a moment of doubt and utter fear after the bump to the head and escaping near death. It took Mellisandra to remind her of her purpose and put her back on track.

Yep, I'll take that. As I said I have no problem with Ayra being the one to take down NK. It was actually one of the things that made the most sense in my eyes.

Alpha_zero · 29-04-2019 06:55PM

Pretty much every main character survived, and at the end it looked like the only survivors were main characters wtf.

Alpha_zero · 29-04-2019 06:56PM

That battle may have been longer than Helms Deep but it was most certainly no Helms Deep. Its managed quantity not quality.

RickBlaine · 29-04-2019 06:57PM

I'm watching that doc on Youtube about the episode. The makeup designer was saying who the crypt wights had a completely different look and how they spent time researching their design. It is a pity the episode was so dark the audience couldn't really tell.

And I'll say again, just because the characters are in a dark environment, doesn't mean the viewer should be left in the dark too.

RickBlaine · 29-04-2019 06:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Read if you want to know GRRM's take on WWs in the books, and you're willing to know this info before reading.

Serious spoiler:
They exist, barely. There is no Night King in the books. There is a "Great Other" but that's more like an opposite of the Lord of Light, apparently.

Well what I mean is that in general GRRM likes to surprise the reader. I wasn't specifically thinking about his take on the WWs.

Alpha_zero · 29-04-2019 06:59PM

All that left of their army is the main characters, less than 10 ****ing stupid

ogsjw · 29-04-2019 06:59PM

What was Bran doing when he warged into the crows? Looking for the Night King? They were flying away from Winterfell. That didn't seem to have a conclusion, was it just a tension building attempt to make him look vulnerable?

Gonna have to watch this episode again to understand things. That's never a good sign. Lots of people very unhappy on different message boards with the NK's exit. 8 seasons, so 9+ years of mysticism around the white walkers and that's how it goes down... might as well just put Arya on the throne now for ultimate fan-service.

The lighting was arse too, I completely agree with the above poster. I thought it was just me. Looked at my reflection on my glossy screen for an hour and twenty, ridiculous.

29-04-2019 07:01PM

RickBlaine wrote: »

Well what I mean is..

I've deleted my post. It was silly to post something like that which could tempt or give posters a different idea. Can you do the same to this one quoted?

OneOfThem Stumbled · 29-04-2019 07:03PM

There's a lot to think about with this episode. I'm really unsure what I feel about it as a whole. It's got so much going for it, and yet it feels like it has a gaping hole in the middle.

Much of this is due to what I was talking about in the previous episode in that there wasn't nearly enough discussion about what the battle plan was. Because of this I was often left flummoxed as to what the plan actually was. So were the characters apparently

Send our cavalry at them!
Oh no, the cavalry had no effect (bye Ghost

).
Side note: if Melisandre hadn't turned up would the cavalry have just blundered around blindly?

Use the trebuchets and catapults!
Stop using the artillery, they could hit the cavalry.
Why did we place the artillery in front of the infantry?

Light the fire pit!
The fire pit is lit!
Guys, what did we intend doing once the fire pit was lit?
Oh no, they have made a breach in the fire pit, but we have no men to plug the gap.

Man the walls!
We lost most our men in front of the walls, and now there aren't enough to guard the walls - guard the courtyard!
Oh no they have the courtyard!
We no longer have enough soldiers to defend the narrow, stone, chokepoint filled corridors.

The crypts are safe!
The crypts are filled with the dead.
Our enemy can raise the dead.
Oh no, the crypts are filled with the dead.

__________________________________

Okay most of these are just quibbles. The defenders of Winterfell may just have not been very good at strategy, or perhaps the plan fell apart when the going got tough (although it would be nice to know if that were the case).

However all of this is incidental (except for characters getting killed off), because the whole battle hinges on killing the Night King.

I'm still not really sure what the plan was in relation to this. I kind of feel that there was none.

Bran is in the Godswood, to act as a beacon to attract the Night King. We assume that the Night King won't want to kill Bran at a distance (his dragon is countered by Drogon and Rhaegar, but one has to hope he doesn't feel like getting any of his subordinates to kill Bran, or hell, javeling him from a distance himself). He chose to get up close and personal with the Three Eyed Raven, so there's precedence for this at least.

The Ironborn are there just to die, apparently. There was no intention that they would be strong enough to hold off the wights, let alone white walkers. Bran uses his magical abilities to warg into some ravens... I am not sure why. Otherwise he just sits there as bait. Sucks to be one of the thousands of solders situated between the Nazgul and its prey.

And Arya ex machina. Did Bran know it would happen? Why not hide Theon in a bush with a bow and dragonglass arrow, and not defend Winterfell at all? I'm serious. The defenders looked like they were playing for time, but in reality the sooner the Night King made his move on Bran, the better.

Talking of which, why was the Night King in such a hurry? He took seven seasons to attack the wall, he couldn't wait 20 minutes for his endless army of wights to finish off the last of the defenders?

Maybe these things will be answered in the next episode. I hope.

_________________________________________________

Okay the good: amazing battle scenes. Dothraki screamers. Giant flying flamethrowers. That scene above the clouds. That scene featuring Jerusalem in World War Z. The part where the giant breaks into the courtyard, and Gandalf gives the order to unleash a volley before being picked up and crushed. Wait... I'm getting mixed up again.

The bad: the white walkers, Night King, wights, Long Night, things beyond the walls are all done? All gone? One blow of a Valyrian dagger? Cersei took out most of House Tyrell in her Guy Falkes plot, but boy did that have some build up. She had been planning that for episodes, and the direction played it up big time (remember that score?) Even then, House Tyrell wasn't totally annihilated, which didn't happen until the following season. I just find it a little bit anticlimactic that the entire campaign against the Night King (if one discounts Hard Home) lasted a single episode, even if it was a good one.

klose · 29-04-2019 07:15PM

I'm disappointed I must say, I always found the white walkers the most interesting aspect of the show and that was a fairly unsatisfactory ending to it all.

29-04-2019 07:19PM

Dany stuck in the open with fires burning everywhere, against enemies who blaze into fire.. Is immune to fire; Doesn't stand in the fire.

GG writers.

29-04-2019 07:19PM

Why do people hate on Lyanna Mormont?

Necro · 29-04-2019 07:25PM

Well I was gone, but I saw this stupid comment:

RollieFingers wrote: »

Sign of a weak argument there.

I made my points already, would you like me to argue them repeatedly or something? Read the thread.

Necro wrote: »

That was epic. Problem with TV these days is that GOT and HBO stuff in particular has raised the bar so much that unless people get their own perfect idea come to fruition on screen they're gonna stamp their feet and cry and whinge about it being underwhelming.

It wasn't.
Complaints so far:

The lighting: FFS folks, they're fighting an army of the undead at night, in winter - it was deliberately filmed that way.

Major characters didn't die: The hand wringing over this is actually sad.
In one episode:
Theon, Beric, Edd, Lyanna Mormont, Melisandre and Jorah Mormont all popped their clogs having been relatively large parts of the story, in Theon and Jorahs case since the beginning.
Would you prefer the entire cast was killed and all the extras were left to wander around for the last 3 episodes? Ridiculous.

Arya's kill on the Night King: This has literally been her MO since about 5 seasons ago.
The changing faces, the stealth. Sneaking into a castle and feeding Walder Frey a pie baked of his own family...
I mean... come on.

Now we get back to the plotting and planning from Cersei, which is the main point of the show since the beginning.
God I really hope we get Cleganebowl!

I loved the teaser where Melisandre mentions the brown eyes, green eyes... and blue. I started wondering if Arya would be involved but then dismissed it until it actually happened.

I actually think the NK came across as a coward tbh.

Hiding in the ice storm and sniping at the dragons.
Raising the dead instead of engaging in battle with Jon Snow
About to kill a defenseless cripple.

Overall it was class imo. The battle of the bastards was probably more realistic tbf.

BUT

They were fighting an army of undead, lol. So realism can't seriously be used as a complaint? It was a running screaming army of zombies FFS!

Can't believe the show is nearly done

Also I'm definitely checking out when stuff like THIS:

fash wrote: »

Agreed, a post I made earlier didn't get through for some reason- the night king story should have been even bigger- it's over 8000 years of history, resulted in the building of a gigantic mountain range sized wall of ice and installation of an 8000 year army to man that wall.
His story end was little more than if when he and his army approached the wall, he slipped on some ice and broke his neck. Properly, the night king battle should have happened over 2 episodes with a cliff hanger - possibly with some psychic plane fight between Bran and the Night king.

Gets thanked.

:rolleyes: Let's ruin the whole show's premise for some basement fantasy

RollieFingers · 29-04-2019 07:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do people hate on Lyanna Mormont?

Her accent annoys me. And just sit down and leave it to the adults, a battle isn't child's play. Was delighted Wun Wun got her.

Joshua J · 29-04-2019 07:29PM

klose wrote: »

I'm disappointed I must say, I always found the white walkers the most interesting aspect of the show and that was a fairly unsatisfactory ending to it all.

This was it for me. We, the viewer could see everything unfold and the fight for the throne almost felt petty and pointless in the face of such an existential threat as the Night King. Yet it was the Night King who was pointless, all the mystery and supernatural power irrelevant.

29-04-2019 07:41PM

RollieFingers wrote: »

Her accent annoys me. And just sit down and leave it to the adults, a battle isn't child's play. Was delighted Wun Wun got her.

Fair enough. I quite like her. I thought she was a great example of the flaws of the feudal system.

Tikki Wang Wang · 29-04-2019 07:47PM

Necro wrote: »

Well I was gone, but I saw this stupid comment:

I made my points already, would you like me to argue them repeatedly or something? Read the thread.

Also I'm definitely checking out when stuff like THIS:

Gets thanked.

:rolleyes: Let's ruin the whole show's premise for some basement fantasy

The butt hurt is strong in this one

OneOfThem Stumbled · 29-04-2019 07:53PM

.

Tywin tells it like it is

nix · 29-04-2019 07:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough. I quite like her. I thought she was a great example of the flaws of the feudal system.

Yeah im a bit miffed they killed her out of all the choices, i was hoping she would come out crippled after the giant, not dead.

So is that the Mormont line snuffed out with her and Jorah gone?

29-04-2019 08:08PM

RickBlaine wrote: »

Isn't George RR Martin's whole writing mantra to subvert the reader's expectations and surprise. Jon killing the NK would have been obvious but Arya killing him is a surprise.

I do have have problem with the fact that Jon never really had a proper showdown with the NK. Remember how amazing his fight with the WW was in Hardhome. Something similar would have been great for this episode, and then towards the end when it seems that the NK will beat Jon, then Arya comes in to help.

As I said earlier today, his showdown with the dragon didn't make much narrative sense. It should have been Dany vs Dragon and then Jon vs NK.

Surprises were good when they changed the dynamic of certain relationships and plots, when they opened up different possibilities and made you reconsider previous actions, stuff like that. The problem is now we are at the business end of things and there's not much of a pay off for a surprise like that, only to sort of undo a lot of the good build up.

Something like the Hardhome fight would have been great alright

Alpha_zero · 29-04-2019 08:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do people hate on Lyanna Mormont?

I enjoyed her death.

leggo · 29-04-2019 08:20PM

RollieFingers wrote: »

It's just a TV show, I don't take it that seriously, and don't watch it to benefit my life. And definitely not seriously enough to tell people how they watch the show is "crappy" or think it's sad that people express different opinions about the show.

Why do you watch TV shows then if not to enjoy them and have that enjoyment benefit your life? The preferable option is always enjoying what you’re spending time doing. But now we’ve got people who are determined to go through every strategic move with a fine toothcomb to find flaws in it for the sake of...what, a few likes?

People who enjoyed it: got taken on an 80-minute thrill ride last night in an episode that satisfied years of watching this show/following this story.

People who nitpicked: didn’t get any of that, feel annoyed about all the time they put in, but their reward for staying up til 3.30am was that they got to post on the Internet, feel clever for about a second and get a few arbitrary likes from strangers.

Bit of a **** way to live for me, but each their own I guess!

fash · 29-04-2019 08:25PM

Necro wrote: »

Gets thanked.

:rolleyes: Let's ruin the whole show's premise for some basement fantasy

Whatever - the three eyed raven and the night king meet before in a memory/ psychic realm - and considering this is meant to be an 8000 year old war where one side builds ice mountains to defend themselves, a single episode where the night king dies (yet where just about everybody else with a name survives), one would think one could make several episodes and several levels out of the epic struggle between light and dark - see legion for example.

Allowing an 8000 year war end with a small popping sound is rather anti climatic

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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