"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

fash · 29-04-2019 05:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Major characters have always fallen because of these silly mistakes.

It is the central character's flaws that bring about their downfall in everything from Greek plays to Shakespeare to early GOT (Ned Stark with his rigid honour and lack of political awareness) - not any more though.

A slight objection I had to the post show explanation show from the directors is how they wanted to give the characters (Jorah, Lyanna, Theon) suitable sending offs - again narratively, it is just too Disney-esque fan-fictiony an approach to be taking on this.

29-04-2019 05:17PM

fash wrote: »

It is the central character's flaws that bring about their downfall in everything from Greek plays to Shakespeare to early GOT (Ned Stark with his rigid honour and lack of political awareness) - not any more though.

A slight objection I had to the post show explanation show from the directors is how they wanted to give the characters (Jorah, Lyanna, Theon) suitable sending offs - again narratively, it is just too Disney-esque fan-fictiony an approach to be taking on this.

Yeah, I watched a couple of minutes of that, and the drop off in quality made a bit more sense..

Tikki Wang Wang · 29-04-2019 05:19PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think anyone on here critiquing the battle tactics really need to question what they are like..... You are watching a television drama, you are not trained army generals.... what are you like ? Like really ?

I mean if you feel that bad you should start stalking the writers and producers and make an official complaint. Keyboard warriors and the likes. You need to watch something for what it is , a fantasy drama.

In my fantasy dramas', heroes do get to kill 6000 screaming zombies with one sword, that's the way I like them, nice and cartoonish, really far fetched. Please get over yourselves.

Apt user name is apt

golfball37 · 29-04-2019 05:19PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

On the subject of the lighting, the nighttime setting was almost certainly entirely driven by budgetary concerns. I'm sure the 'fog of war' cloud was equally motivated by money issues. The direction didn't help - frantically shaking camera making it hard to follow certain aspects, in particular the dragon brawl. But credit to director Miguel Sapochnik where it's due - he made the most of the darkness to create some impressive spectacle too. The use of fire was great - the first charge and the gradual extinguishing of the flaming swords was a beautiful way to communicate the sequence in a way that's more effective than simply following the close-up action.

Indeed, I think the first ten-fifteen minutes of the episode is some of the best direction this show has seen. It felt like a continuation of last week's stellar episode - the sense of doom and dread reaching fever pitch before every character literally stares death in the face. The work of the actors, Sapochnik's assured directorial decisions and understated sound/music work mixed together to powerful effect.

As for the rest of the episode... I mean, it has its moments and there's an undercurrent of desperation and tension that always drives it forward. But equally part of me was left feeling Game of Thrones has turned into something much less distinctive these past few seasons, but this episode particularly. I've never been a big fan of the show, just something to watch and enjoy - but there was a brutality and unpredictability to the early seasons that made it stand out from the fantasy pack. But this episode doesn't feel like that show - the show were nobody is safe and the unexpected could happen at any moment. This felt like just another fantasy battle scene - the deaths were blandly heroic and inconsequential (for an episode in which several long-serving characters died, they all felt pretty obvious choices), the beats predictable (how many last second reprieves?) and the resolution underwhelming (although Arya is probably the most satisfying character they could have chosen to land the killer blow).

When the camera followed Jon through the grounds and we caught a glimpse of the 'named' characters, still battling valiantly while it seemed pretty much every other anonymous troop had been slayed, it felt off. It's obviously a heavily contrived moment, giving all these characters 'plot armour' against frankly unbelievable odds. But maybe that would have been less jarring if this wasn't Game of Thrones. This is a show that made its name being bloody and unforgiving and cynical. To have almost everyone of note make it through rang false in a way it wouldn't elsewhere. And of course killing characters isn't the only way to shock and surprise, but this felt like the time a high body count was necessary given the odds and threat.

Watching this episode was exciting and entertaining and let's be frank rather hard to see at times. But after a few seasons where things shifted into more familiarly generic territory, this climax was a sugar rush more than anything else - satisfying at the time, but leaving a lingering disappointment. There are still three episodes to go, and there's a psychotic queen to deal with - there's still time for Game of Thrones to find that sweet spot again. For now, The Long Night was a decent old-fashioned fantasy episode... but GoT can be better than that.

Fair play- thats an excellent review and would echo my own thoughts and concerns. I couldn't in a million years put it as well as you did however.

PTH2009 · 29-04-2019 05:29PM

Kind of sad the great war is over now and tbh where too now ??

brianblaze · 29-04-2019 05:32PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Kind of sad the great war is over now and tbh where too now ??

Night King was just the end of level boss, Cersei is the end of game bad guy. This isn't even her final form etc.

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 05:33PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Kind of sad the great war is over now and tbh where too now ??

The last war.

Attack Kings Landing and win. Biggest question left is who gets to kill Cersei.

dsmythy · 29-04-2019 05:37PM

I can't be the only one still smarting at the fact the night king smiled? What was that about.

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 05:41PM

Am I right in saying that the fans of the show are unhappy that there is fan service?

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 05:42PM

dsmythy wrote: »

I can't be the only one still smarting at the fact the night king smiled? What was that about.

His arrogance was his downfall. For all his strategy and power he got cocky, he could have just sat back in the tree line until everyone was dead. He was goaded into battle by a crow and got his comeuppance.

Huntergonzo · 29-04-2019 05:42PM

Personally I don't even like dungeons and dragons type stuff (hated Lord of the Rings for example) and I only got in to GOT because of all the interesting characters and the excellent story telling.

White walkers and Night Kings mean far less to me than the likes of the Lannisters v the Starks, or all the trials and tribulations of Daenarys in Essos or Jon Snow at the wall (v the wildlings), or Stannis attempting to sack Kingslanding or Tyrion's wit etc etc

All them things are far more interesting to me than the Night King, but having said that I understand that he's been built up as the ultimate enemy. This is why I feel people are a little bit disappointed by his ending, which I am to.

Now I'm not disappointed that we didn't get to see his character develop, he's an undead zombie king essentially. You could hardly expect him to sit at a negotiation table or tell a heartbreaking story from his past, death and destruction are his only goals so nevermind his 'personality'.

Also I wasn't disappointed that he met his end in one episode, it was a feature length episode after all, the timing was reasonable enough and the series is coming to a close. Don't forget we still have to tie up the little matter of the Iron throne and who is finally going to sit on it.

It was the fact that it was so sudden and that Ayra done him in, they were both very disappointing. It should have been Jon Snow and there should have been a battle between them.

Instead we got Jon running away from fire every few seconds, then standing up shouting hopelessly at a dragon before Ayra spring vaults out of nowhere, with no previous history of fighting white walkers or being north of the wall and does the job in a matter of seconds.

That's poor!

Hazys · 29-04-2019 05:46PM

For a moment, when the Night King came to confront Bran, i wondered if he was going to speak to him and all i could think of was wouldn't it be hilarious if he a had a real squeaky voice. I ruined the final moments for my self by imagining that.

29-04-2019 05:47PM

GSPfan wrote: »

That scene is better than this whole episode. It’s perfect.

Had to watch the entire intro and her on the throne when Jaime came back. The score is fantastic.

Dial Hard · 29-04-2019 05:47PM

johnny_ultimate wrote:

When the camera followed Jon through the grounds and we caught a glimpse of the 'named' characters, still battling valiantly while it seemed pretty much every other anonymous troop had been slayed, it felt off. It's obviously a heavily contrived moment, giving all these characters 'plot armour' against frankly unbelievable odds. But maybe that would have been less jarring if this wasn't Game of Thrones. This is a show that made its name being bloody and unforgiving and cynical. To have almost everyone of note make it through rang false in a way it wouldn't elsewhere. And of course killing characters isn't the only way to shock and surprise, but this felt like the time a high body count was necessary given the odds and threat.

The behind the scenes doc linked a few pages back is well worth a watch. It explains a lot of the shoot/story decisions that people are complaining about in this thread, including this one.

WhiteMemento9 · 29-04-2019 05:52PM

I understand it wasn't the fitting ending many wanted for NK but ignoring her teleporting to the area from the Castle, Ayra springing out of nowhere with a Ninja knife drop to stick him good is one of thing's that I am puzzled by as a complaint. We literally had tedious hours of her training to become the world's No.1 stealthy assassin.

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 05:54PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

The behind the scenes doc linked a few pages back is well worth a watch. It explains a lot of the shoot/story decisions that people are complaining about in this thread, including this one.

Isn’t that like a comedian explaining a joke though. That shouldn’t be necessary.

Hobosan · 29-04-2019 05:54PM

Considering the quality of writing throughout the episode, it would have been consistent for Arya to say "You should have a rest..." to the night king, before her jamming in the knife. Then following up with "You look shattered!".

Would have driven home the direction the show has taken.

29-04-2019 06:01PM

Arya next Avenger confirmed.

29-04-2019 06:02PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think anyone on here critiquing the battle tactics really need to question what they are like..... You are watching a television drama, you are not trained army generals.... what are you like ? Like really ?

I mean if you feel that bad you should start stalking the writers and producers and make an official complaint. Keyboard warriors and the likes. You need to watch something for what it is , a fantasy drama.

In my fantasy dramas', heroes do get to kill 6000 screaming zombies with one sword, that's the way I like them, nice and cartoonish, really far fetched. Please get over yourselves.

That's what Game of Thrones has not been for most of it's existence. Fair enough if it started out like LotR, but it didn't, so it isn't, hence the change is jarring.

Dial Hard · 29-04-2019 06:03PM

GSPfan wrote:

Isnâ€™t that like a comedian explaining a joke though. That shouldnâ€™t be necessary.

No, not at all. Watch it, seriously, it's hugely interesting.

Whelo79 · 29-04-2019 06:03PM

What a fantastic episode of TV. Wow.

It was not without it's flaws, some more obvious than others, and I understand why some people may feel aggrieved and unsatisfied but I thought it was enthralling from the first second to the last. I've watched it twice today and will watch it again when the wife gets home. 80 odd minutes of high drama that probably included a little over a couple of hundred words of dialogue. That is some achievement.

I thought both Arya being the one to kill the NK and how she ultimately done it were excellent choices, I've loved her journey throughout the show and looking back they have tee'd it up so well for her. You have some people saying it should have been Jon who killed him but that would have been too obvious. I would have liked to see a good battle between Jon and the NK just before the NK raised the dead, and maybe Jon seeing one of the main characters (Sam, Brienne, Jamie, Thormond, Greyworm) being killed (with no fuss or big dramatic set up) as he is running through the courtyard. Other than that I am happy to take the episode as it was delivered to us. Fantastic.

I can't wait for the final 3 episodes. It's time for someone to finally win at The Game of Thrones.

29-04-2019 06:06PM

brianregan09 wrote: »

Didn't realize the amount of Army Generals posting in here with the amount of tactics knowledge we could over throw a government or 2 surely

I dont have to be a surgeon to know sticking a knife straight through my hand is a bad idea

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 06:09PM

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I understand it wasn't the fitting ending many wanted for NK but ignoring her teleporting to the area from the Castle, Ayra springing out of nowhere with a Ninja knife drop to stick him good is one of thing's that I am puzzled by as a complaint. We literally had tedious hours of her training to become the world's No.1 stealthy assassin.

I know you won’t accept this answer but I’ll give it anyway.

This episode establishes how a drop of blood alerted them to her presence so somehow sneaking by a few hundred of them to be able to get within striking distance of the King is just a bit jarring. The fact she’s flying through the air is also bizarre as we don’t know if she was jumping from ground level or higher up.

It seems like they sacrificed believability for surprise which is fine cause it worked for most but not for some.

Hobosan · 29-04-2019 06:13PM

I'm not sure if Theon was trying to kill the Night King or pole vault over him. I guess he was so defeatist that rather than fight with the elite skill he showed moments before, he'd belatedly try his hand at his unfulfilled pole vaulting dreams...

Shane St. · 29-04-2019 06:15PM

Didn't think the NK would be beaten so easily in the end. amazing episode though

johnny_ultimate · 29-04-2019 06:17PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

The behind the scenes doc linked a few pages back is well worth a watch. It explains a lot of the shoot/story decisions that people are complaining about in this thread, including this one.

I've watched a good chunk of it, including the section on that sequence (not too concerned watching the rest as I'm not super-fond of the promotional behind the scenes documentary format). I have no doubt whatsoever that every decision had a logical justification, either practical or artistic. But I'm looking at it as a viewer, and while I admire the production effort involved ultimately I can only give my honest response to the episode itself as a piece of television.

There likely were entirely sensible motivations for them to track through the grounds, highlighting only the familiar characters making their exhausted last stands, but tonally and narratively it didn't work for me. It communicates a level of intensity, but equally highlighted how timid GoT has gotten in its old age. Once upon a time nobody was safe in Westeros: people died in the middle of their arcs, or conflicts suddenly and brutally resolved when they seemed to have much more life in them. That's what made it such edgy, compelling viewing. This battle scene is post-books GoT in a nutshell: a big budget fantasy epic without that delirious vicious streak. This was meant to be the ultimate battle, a nasty war against the dead that we've been waiting eight seasons for. There was little in the episode to suggest these characters have paid a major cost for their victory, one or two long-anticipated deaths aside (let's be fair - the arcs of Jorah and Theon were both pretty tidily summed up at this stage). If that's the story the writers want to tell, that's their absolute artistic right - as a viewer, it felt hollow and familiar. When watching it I couldn't help but think the sequence was contrived and awkward.

As said, three episodes is a long time in this show (4 hours to be exact :P) so they may be holding back - but for the most part, and the scene being a significant case in point, this episode was clean and predictable in a way earlier seasons defiantly weren't.

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 06:17PM

I honestly was watching it saying to myself “I’m sure Arya is going to do something” and I thought she was going to start knifing the White Walkers to neutralise most of the dead. But when she emerged flying out of the mist screaming her head off (while everyone else was silent by the way, the music wasn’t playing for the characters) it just was a bit of a strange way to do it.

DM_7 · 29-04-2019 06:26PM

Maybe this should have spent longer between the last two series off to allow that be the ending of the previous series?

Going from them breaking through the wall to a major pause, then a restart episode, then a scene setter to one battle with the Night King dead pretty fast into the series is a shame. It also means the aftermath is forced to happen quickly.

Could have been good to see the humans struggle against each other over a longer time with a number of battles making up the final war.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 29-04-2019 06:26PM

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I understand it wasn't the fitting ending many wanted for NK but ignoring her teleporting to the area from the Castle, Ayra springing out of nowhere with a Ninja knife drop to stick him good is one of thing's that I am puzzled by as a complaint. We literally had tedious hours of her training to become the world's No.1 stealthy assassin.

All of this was understood before. Assassins can seem to appear from nowhere as her trainer often did. The army of the dead depends on the NK. He can be killed with dragon glass or Valyrian steel. The wood is in the grounds of winterfell.

No dues ex machina there.

29-04-2019 06:26PM

"Fear is for the long night, when children are born and live and die all in darkness. That is the time for fear when the white walkers move through the woods, thousands of years ago there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles same as the shepherds in their huts, and woman smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks. In that darkness the white walkers came for the first time and swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses and hunting with packs of pale spiders big as hounds."

That pretty much explain the meh that has followed this episode by so many. Brutally dissatisfying.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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