"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

leggo · 29-04-2019 04:10PM

Also returning to the criticisms over darkness:

This is Game of Thrones, the biggest TV show today, maybe ever. They just gave us a movie-sized battle breaking pretty much every record for TV of its kind. Everyone has opinions on it and people love to come up with ‘controversial hot takes’ about it, they get loads of attention, we discussed this last week sure. So they’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Because every single person seems to be watching, sadly we’re going to get EVERY single opinion expressed.

I absolutely guarantee you if they whacked up the brightness for this, today you’d have people coming on like “Uh so you’re telling me the NIGHT KING wouldn’t use the NIGHT to his advantage? That was so unrealistic! In Battle of the Bastards they showed us the character’s viewpoint and that’s what made that great, why didn’t they do that here?!!”

It was a creative decision to put us in the battle, like in BoB, and disorientate us with darkness cus again, duh, NIGHT King. We’re supposed to feel the confusion and terror the character’s do by this army that’s such an unknown quantity. It also makes perfect sense that the NK would employ this strategy.

That’s not me going out of my way to defend the show, that’s not retroactively making sense of a mistake they made...it’s a really obvious directorial decision! And it just looks like people didn’t understand that when complaining at first and are now stuck in these opinion trenches they’re unwilling to climb out of tbh.

fash · 29-04-2019 04:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Honestly leggo, the "I wish more characters died." is purely coming from episode two. If they didn't intend to kill them now, they should have had a fairer battle with a better military strategy, and use episode two for more concrete dialogue.

I feel like those 50 minutes were stolen from the show.

Well not just that - the night king story was a story 8000 years - and 8 TV seasons in the making - and he basically did the narrative equivalent of slipping on some ice and breaking his neck.
I remember seeing a program about Battlestar Galactica where writers originally from Star Trek were incorporating lessons learnt from those - in particular the narrative need that the Big Bad (the Borg in Star Trek, Voyager etc.) actually needed to (and failed to) do permanent damage to the good guys - otherwise they become ineffective and unscary.
There should have been a greater narrative cost to victory against the Night King - it was too cheaply bought at the end- where was Jon Snow having to kill his beloved in order to get the blessings of Rhyllor (only to then find out that that wasn't enough and Arya kill him etc. )

29-04-2019 04:13PM

leggo, we've had night battles before. I had to put a duvet over my curtains and crank up the brightness horribly just to see who was who. Jorah coming back from the first attack was my first pause cause I couldn't tell who it was, and I moved the TV onto my coffee table and did the duvet and settings changes just to have a chance of seeing anything.

That was immersion-breaking. The fact everyone is talking about it means it was a misstep.

leggo · 29-04-2019 04:13PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Honestly leggo, the "I wish more characters died." is purely coming from episode two. If they didn't intend to kill them now, they should have had a fairer battle with a better military strategy, and use episode two for more concrete dialogue.

I feel like those 50 minutes were stolen from the show.

We get that you didn’t like episode two dude. We know. You’ve said it like a thousand times now, it’s established.

But why does all the dialogue in episode two have to directly relate to this episode? If Brienne does saving Jaime next week, will we have forgotten that he knighted her because it happened a whole two weeks ago? If a character doesn’t die, it’d still make sense that they treated that night like their last on earth because that’s what everyone thought it was! (And it was for many big characters) It still raised the emotional stakes for this episode. Nothing changes because people didn’t die. If anything if everyone died that we thought would...wouldn’t that be really predictable and what you’re giving out about today instead?

RollieFingers · 29-04-2019 04:13PM

leggo wrote: »

Also returning to the criticisms over darkness:

This is Game of Thrones, the biggest TV show today, maybe ever. They just gave us a movie-sized battle breaking pretty much every record for TV of its kind. Everyone has opinions on it and people love to come up with ‘controversial hot takes’ about it, they get loads of attention, we discussed this last week sure. So they’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Because every single person seems to be watching, sadly we’re going to get EVERY single opinion expressed.

I absolutely guarantee you if they whacked up the brightness for this, today you’d have people coming on like “Uh so you’re telling me the NIGHT KING wouldn’t use the NIGHT to his advantage? That was so unrealistic! In Battle of the Bastards they showed us the character’s viewpoint and that’s what made that great, why didn’t they do that here?!!”

It was a creative decision to put us in the battle, like in BoB, and disorientate us with darkness cus again, duh, NIGHT King. We’re supposed to feel the confusion and terror the character’s do by this army that’s such an unknown quantity. It also makes perfect sense that the NK would employ this strategy.

That’s not me going out of my way to defend the show, that’s not retroactively making sense of a mistake they made...it’s a really obvious directorial decision! And it just looks like people didn’t understand that when complaining at first and are now stuck in these opinion trenches they’re unwilling to climb out of tbh.

What's wrong with that? I've enjoyed reading the opinions on this and the other threads, whether I agreed with them or not.

Vex Willems · 29-04-2019 04:14PM

J. Marston wrote: »

Impressive that Maisie Williams did all the sword fighting left handed despite being right handed because Arya is a lefty in the books...

Something she thought would be a good idea at 12 which she would later regret!

Thou · 29-04-2019 04:21PM

Can only share the sentiment from many quarters about the disappointing lack of any real combat engagement between the White Walkers and main characters.
Think the portrayal of the Walkers and Night King casually walking around looking sort of non chalant, appeared clumsy and rushed as opposed to what felt like a more fearsome powerful enemy way back in the Battle of Hardhome, old actor who played Night King was better too, but it was that episode and a few more snippets that built the NK and walkers up to be an otherworldly force, making the viewer curious as to what could unfold and what exactly was their motive.

Hopefully they might explain more about this in remaining episode's, remember the scene in always winter with ceremony of baby being turned by NK, I might be wrong but did producers prior to final season mention how this was integral to overall story arc? Can't help but feel robbed of all time invested, in the way the Walkers have been concluded in the show.

Thought Arya killing the NK made alot of sense, but it should have been done better.

leggo · 29-04-2019 04:21PM

RollieFingers wrote: »

What's wrong with that? I've enjoyed reading the opinions on this and the other threads, whether I agreed with them or not.

There’s zero problem with people expressing opinions, I love GoT chat and even have a show about it where I love getting into debate and discussion myself, but read the full post and not just the bolded part. Often people will pick an opinion just because it’s available without any substance (like how last week was the “worst episode ever”) because it will get them attention. So my point is that if they answered people’s criticism about the darkness, you’d get people giving out about the lack of realism or poor strategy from the NK. They have to pick a side ultimately because people will dump on something this popular regardless, so I’m glad that they picked the side that made narrative sense.

29-04-2019 04:22PM

leggo wrote: »

We get that you didn’t like episode two dude. We know. You’ve said it like a thousand times now, it’s established.

But why does all the dialogue in episode two have to directly relate to this episode? If Brienne does saving Jaime next week, will we have forgotten that he knighted her because it happened a whole two weeks ago? If a character doesn’t die, it’d still make sense that they treated that night like their last on earth because that’s what everyone thought it was! (And it was for many big characters) It still raised the emotional stakes for this episode. Nothing changes because people didn’t die. If anything if everyone died that we thought would...wouldn’t that be really predictable and what you’re giving out about today instead?

My complaints are fair and warranted imo. The entire show has done fine without some big episodes bringing us back and reminding us of the human cost of their world.. I don't even want loads of characters to die, but it would have made up for lackluster dialogue in episode two.

Last week, my opinions were found under Controversial on Reddit. This week, they're under Best. People are very frustrated at this episode, mostly book readers, because of some major prophesies etc. that have been talked about for 20 years being extinguished with an as-of-yet inexplicable ninja attack over the heads of a load of WWs and wights. My girlfriend and friends are all blue-balled by the experience.

At this point, the show can only redeem itself with Cersei winning. It needs something, because this week, the main good guys won somehow whilst employing unbelievably bad tactics. It goes against what I see good about the series to see them fumble their way through saving the world.

WhiteMemento9 · 29-04-2019 04:22PM

mystic86 wrote: »

I think this show brought in lovers of real character driven TV shows, like Sopranos, The Wire etc., because GOT was also so good at that, but from some of the comments here it really looks like a lot of people are forgetting this is a science fiction, fantasy story.

No, you are the one that is completely missing the point of the complaints. You are probably right that people who enjoyed those kinds of shows made their way over to watch GOT with trepidation and little love for the genre but they stayed because the quality of the show turned that on its head. You suspend belief in the world that has been created. That doesn't mean the events within that world shouldn't be believable or well written within the context that they play out. It isn't the science fiction or fantasy elements that are the problem. It just was a badly written, ridiculous episode.

Penn · 29-04-2019 04:29PM

Thou wrote: »

Hopefully they might explain more about this in remaining episode's, remember the scene in always winter with ceremony of baby being turned by NK, I might be wrong but did producers prior to final season mention how this was integral to overall story arc? Can't help but feel robbed of all time invested, in the way the Walkers have been concluded in the show.

It's just how the NK makes White Walkers. Presumably the babies then age quickly and turn into White Walkers, as opposed to how they make the wights by just raising people from the dead.

Arghus · 29-04-2019 04:31PM

I don't know how people are defending the lighting in the episode.

You can talk about realism and grittiness and whatever, but don't forget this is a show with flying fire-breathing dragons and zombies. The realism argument only works so far with GoT.

The problem people had with the darkness was that they literally couldn't see what was happening on screen during vital moments of the episode.

Bottom line is: the viewers should be able to at least see and follow the action and that's whether your battle sequence is set at night, during the day, during a hurricane, set in space, set underwater - it doesn't matter: the first rule of any kind of on-screen depiction of anything - anything - has to be clarity for the viewer.

I understand that it was an episode set at night, no-one expects it to be lit like a day time episode, but there is a way to shoot those kind of episodes - The Battle of The Blackwater and the Battle For Castleblack spring to mind - that's faithful to the night time setting but still renders the action with clarity, rather than just murk.

And people defending the poor-lighting: Your arguments are false. Obviously the number one reason that large portions of the battle sequences were shrouded in darkness, was because darkness lets you get away with shoddier CGI and limits to the production values. That's it, that is why the episode was dark - the realism arguments are totally bogus.

RollieFingers · 29-04-2019 04:35PM

leggo wrote: »

There’s zero problem with people expressing opinions, I love GoT chat and even have a show about it where I love getting into debate and discussion myself, but read the full post and not just the bolded part. Often people will pick an opinion just because it’s available without any substance (like how last week was the “worst episode ever”) because it will get them attention. So my point is that if they answered people’s criticism about the darkness, you’d get people giving out about the lack of realism or poor strategy from the NK. They have to pick a side ultimately because people will dump on something this popular regardless, so I’m glad that they picked the side that made narrative sense.

I don't think the majority of people are mentioning how dark it was because it will get them attention. It's a legitimate observation made by many, and not just on Boards. You think it's sad we're going to get every single opinion expressed, I think the opposite, I enjoy reading everyone's opinions on the show.

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 04:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't put trenches behind you and artillery in front of you. It's so comically basic.

Their use of the best horsemen in their world was to ride them blind into darkness with no weapons that do damage. An initial foray with arrows of dragon glass followed by a flanking manoeuvre was the obvious.

In fairness, I think you perhaps are more informed about these things than the average person. I barely know what a flanking manoeuvre is, and I wouldn't know how you'd carry out one against an enemy you can't see.

In any case, given the scale and nature of the enemy, I think the outcome would have been similar to what we saw onscreen no matter what tactics or formation were used; the Dothraki and Unsullied decimated, and Winterfell invaded. They said as much in the last episode when they agreed that taking out the Night King was their only realistic chance of victory.

Bobby Baccala · 29-04-2019 04:36PM

When a whitewalker is killed, all the Whites he turned die straight away (as we learned when Jon and the boys went beyond the wall), I assume that's why the night king didn't send them into battle with the footsoldiers.

How come we only saw one undead giant? Weren't we shown a few of them at the end of season 7? Would also love to know what Ghost got up to for that whole episode, seemed like a waste of time showing him before the battle only for him to disappear.

As for the Night King possibly being a targeryan, nah. We've seen whitewalkers being unharmed by fire at Hardhome and when they attacked the 3 eyed Raven.

Overall I enjoyed the episode, glad Brienne survived as she's been a favourite of mine for a few seasons, likewise The Hound. Maybe he'll conquer his fear of fire and burn the zombie Mountain to death when the time comes.

Gonna rewatch it tomorrow and see if there's anything I missed.

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 04:36PM

@ leggo

Ha. So my inability to see anything happening Is not valid because you could see things fine. This even after its a topic on every forum out there today with substantial amounts of people with the same complaint?

I’m delighted you liked it, I truly am, but the first viewing of it was ruined for me due to the lighting and I’ve gone back today and watched it with brightness turned up to 11 and I have no clue why someone in the production chose to role that dice and have it so dark throughout. As soon as those fires were lit in the trenches the episode should have been brighter at least.

29-04-2019 04:37PM

I’ve switched my Samsung tv to sports mode and it made a difference to the darkness.

paulbok · 29-04-2019 04:38PM

GSPfan wrote: »

This is directed at a few people as they have commented on it......

The reason people are slightly disappointed most of the main characters lived is because they made it out like a lot of them wouldn’t so don’t be giving out that people had too many expectations when the writers gave us those expectations, and you can’t claim it was intentional to surprise us because again it’s a bad decision because a lot of people are disappointed instead of relieved.

There’s a level of dismissal in here because people who love it don’t want people like me who have issues with it ruining it for them but don’t blame my disappointment on me when it’s clear the writers set up something and didn’t pay it off. Whether they purposefully did it or mistakenly did it, they did it.

Maybe them surviving is a setup for the next episode or two?
GoT is infamous for killing off main characters. So how do you outdo that?
Not kill them, have everyone give out about it, lower their guard watching then Bam. Slaughtered on the way to Kings Landing.

leggo · 29-04-2019 04:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

At this point, the show can only redeem itself with Cersei winning.

THANK YOU for finally proving my point here!

What you've done here is arbitrarily pick the least likely scenario and decide, regardless of substance, "I'm going to say it's bad unless the least likely thing happens." You've publicly admitted you're basing your opinions totally on decisions you've decided in your head are the best COA and not based on judging it on its own merits. We could have the best three episodes of the entire run here, and you've made your mind up already that if Cersei isn't sitting on the Iron Throne at the end, it's bad.

I appreciate you admitting that. I mean, what a crappy way to watch a show we're all doing to presumably enjoy and benefit our lives, but that's your call. At least you're owning that this is what you do now, I respect that.

leggo · 29-04-2019 04:49PM

GSPfan wrote: »

@ leggo

Ha. So my inability to see anything happening Is not valid because you could see things fine. This even after its a topic on every forum out there today with substantial amounts of people with the same complaint?

I’m delighted you liked it, I truly am, but the first viewing of it was ruined for me due to the lighting and I’ve gone back today and watched it with brightness turned up to 11 and I have no clue why someone in the production chose to role that dice and have it so dark throughout. As soon as those fires were lit in the trenches the episode should have been brighter at least.

I couldn't see things fine! I saw things exactly the way you did, we watched the same episode! I just understood that it was dark because the Night King was trying to bring an eternal night to Westeros (they explained this last week) and didn't **** on the show for my lack of convenience because it was clearly an intentional directorial decision. It made it different and better for me. I've seen them do character-based battles in Blackwaster and Castle Black, seen them do POV to amplify the horrors of war in BoB, now I've seen what a battle against the dead who are bringing the Night with them looks like.

29-04-2019 04:51PM

leggo wrote: »

THANK YOU for finally proving my point here!

What you've done here is arbitrarily pick the least likely scenario and decide, regardless of substance, "I'm going to say it's bad unless the least likely thing happens." You've publicly admitted you're basing your opinions totally on decisions you've decided in your head are the best COA and not based on judging it on its own merits. We could have the best three episodes of the entire run here, and you've made your mind up already that if Cersei isn't sitting on the Iron Throne at the end, it's bad.

I appreciate you admitting that. I mean, what a crappy way to watch a show we're all doing to presumably enjoy and benefit our lives, but that's your call. At least you're owning that this is what you do now, I respect that.

Dude, Cersei has the most depth of any character. I've rooted for her on and off for ages.

It's the showrunners who made Arya kill the NK because that was the most surprising, or the the little girl kill the Giant because that was smallest against biggest.

You attacking me, while I attack the show and you somehow take that personally is just odd. I'm not saying anything about you, yet you're just laying it out on me frequently. Argue the show, not the poster.

WhiteMemento9 · 29-04-2019 04:52PM

leggo wrote: »

THANK YOU for finally proving my point here!

What you've done here is arbitrarily pick the least likely scenario and decide, regardless of substance, "I'm going to say it's bad unless the least likely thing happens." You've publicly admitted you're basing your opinions totally on decisions you've decided in your head are the best COA and not based on judging it on its own merits. We could have the best three episodes of the entire run here, and you've made your mind up already that if Cersei isn't sitting on the Iron Throne at the end, it's bad.

I appreciate you admitting that. I mean, what a crappy way to watch a show we're all doing to presumably enjoy and benefit our lives, but that's your call. At least you're owning that this is what you do now, I respect that.

You need to be rooting for someone as having a little skin in the game makes it more fun. With the main man, NK being taken out in what was akin to shooting your enemy in the back the only logical ship to jump into is team Cersai.

IAMAMORON · 29-04-2019 04:54PM

I think anyone on here critiquing the battle tactics really need to question what they are like..... You are watching a television drama, you are not trained army generals.... what are you like ? Like really ?

I mean if you feel that bad you should start stalking the writers and producers and make an official complaint. Keyboard warriors and the likes. You need to watch something for what it is , a fantasy drama.

In my fantasy dramas', heroes do get to kill 6000 screaming zombies with one sword, that's the way I like them, nice and cartoonish, really far fetched. Please get over yourselves.

leggo · 29-04-2019 04:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Dude, Cersei has the most depth of any character. I've rooted for her on and off for ages.

It's the showrunners who made Arya kill the NK because that was the most surprising, or the the little girl kill the Giant because that was smallest against biggest.

You attacking me, while I attack the show and you somehow take that personally is just odd. I'm not saying anything about you, yet you're just laying it out on me frequently. Argue the show, not the poster.

Aw man, read your last few posts. They start with the word 'leggo'. How are you taking that as an attack when you're directly addressing me and I'm answering you? Do you call people then give out to them for picking up like?

Cersei is possibly my fave character too btw. But I'm not going to say "This show is bad if she doesn't win." It's a ridiculous way to judge things if you take yourself remotely serious, but you're entitled to have the relationship you want with the show all the same.

RollieFingers · 29-04-2019 04:55PM

leggo wrote: »

THANK YOU for finally proving my point here!

What you've done here is arbitrarily pick the least likely scenario and decide, regardless of substance, "I'm going to say it's bad unless the least likely thing happens." You've publicly admitted you're basing your opinions totally on decisions you've decided in your head are the best COA and not based on judging it on its own merits. We could have the best three episodes of the entire run here, and you've made your mind up already that if Cersei isn't sitting on the Iron Throne at the end, it's bad.

I appreciate you admitting that. I mean, what a crappy way to watch a show we're all doing to presumably enjoy and benefit our lives, but that's your call. At least you're owning that this is what you do now, I respect that.

It's just a TV show, I don't take it that seriously, and don't watch it to benefit my life. And definitely not seriously enough to tell people how they watch the show is "crappy" or think it's sad that people express different opinions about the show.

29-04-2019 05:01PM

leggo wrote: »

Aw man, read your last few posts. They start with the word 'leggo'. How are you taking that as an attack when you're directly addressing me and I'm answering you? Do you call people then give out to them for picking up like?

Cersei is possibly my fave character too btw. But I'm not going to say "This show is bad if she doesn't win." It's a ridiculous way to judge things if you take yourself remotely serious, but you're entitled to have the relationship you want with the show all the same.

The characters at Winterfell are making unbelievably stupid decisions and keep getting bailed out. Me wanting the show to reward the most ruthless and arguably smartest character isn't picking a random least likely option.

Tyrion and Jon have done nothing but make major mistakes over and over. Dany hasn't been the leader she was in Essos whatsoever, sacrificing the armies she brought from there.

So yeah, I think Cersei is playing the game of thrones the best right now. I don't find the supposed heroes stumbling on success to be particularly rewarding. Posters here laughing at those of us who question the sheer ineptitude of Jon et al. are missing the point. Major characters have always fallen because of these silly mistakes.

johnny_ultimate · 29-04-2019 05:04PM

On the subject of the lighting, the nighttime setting was almost certainly entirely driven by budgetary concerns. I'm sure the 'fog of war' cloud was equally motivated by money issues. The direction didn't help - frantically shaking camera making it hard to follow certain aspects, in particular the dragon brawl. But credit to director Miguel Sapochnik where it's due - he made the most of the darkness to create some impressive spectacle too. The use of fire was great - the first charge and the gradual extinguishing of the flaming swords was a beautiful way to communicate the sequence in a way that's more effective than simply following the close-up action.

Indeed, I think the first ten-fifteen minutes of the episode is some of the best direction this show has seen. It felt like a continuation of last week's stellar episode - the sense of doom and dread reaching fever pitch before every character literally stares death in the face. The work of the actors, Sapochnik's assured directorial decisions and understated sound/music work mixed together to powerful effect.

As for the rest of the episode... I mean, it has its moments and there's an undercurrent of desperation and tension that always drives it forward. But equally part of me was left feeling Game of Thrones has turned into something much less distinctive these past few seasons, but this episode particularly. I've never been a big fan of the show, just something to watch and enjoy - but there was a brutality and unpredictability to the early seasons that made it stand out from the fantasy pack. But this episode doesn't feel like that show - the show were nobody is safe and the unexpected could happen at any moment. This felt like just another fantasy battle scene - the deaths were blandly heroic and inconsequential (for an episode in which several long-serving characters died, they all felt pretty obvious choices), the beats predictable (how many last second reprieves?) and the resolution underwhelming (although Arya is probably the most satisfying character they could have chosen to land the killer blow).

When the camera followed Jon through the grounds and we caught a glimpse of the 'named' characters, still battling valiantly while it seemed pretty much every other anonymous troop had been slayed, it felt off. It's obviously a heavily contrived moment, giving all these characters 'plot armour' against frankly unbelievable odds. But maybe that would have been less jarring if this wasn't Game of Thrones. This is a show that made its name being bloody and unforgiving and cynical. To have almost everyone of note make it through rang false in a way it wouldn't elsewhere. And of course killing characters isn't the only way to shock and surprise, but this felt like the time a high body count was necessary given the odds and threat.

Watching this episode was exciting and entertaining and let's be frank rather hard to see at times. But after a few seasons where things shifted into more familiarly generic territory, this climax was a sugar rush more than anything else - satisfying at the time, but leaving a lingering disappointment. There are still three episodes to go, and there's a psychotic queen to deal with - there's still time for Game of Thrones to find that sweet spot again. For now, The Long Night was a decent old-fashioned fantasy episode... but GoT can be better than that.

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 05:05PM

leggo wrote: »

I couldn't see things fine! I saw things exactly the way you did, we watched the same episode! I just understood that it was dark because the Night King was trying to bring an eternal night to Westeros (they explained this last week) and didn't **** on the show for my lack of convenience because it was clearly an intentional directorial decision. It made it different and better for me. I've seen them do character-based battles in Blackwaster and Castle Black, seen them do POV to amplify the horrors of war in BoB, now I've seen what a battle against the dead who are bringing the Night with them looks like.

Actually depending on your tv settings you didn’t see things like me. I’ve just changed settings from natural to dynamic and jacked up the contrast to improve things and it dramatically improved things.

It actually makes the picture quality poorer but at least I can see things I couldn’t before.

That certainly would have helped me immerse in the episode better.

29-04-2019 05:08PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Indeed, I think the first ten-fifteen minutes of the episode is some of the best direction this show has seen.

Regardless of the rest of your post, this has inspired me to throw on the start of the episode where Cersei blows up the Sept. TV doesn't get much better.

GSPfan · 29-04-2019 05:10PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Regardless of the rest of your post, this has inspired me to throw on the start of the episode where Cersei blows up the Sept. TV doesn't get much better.

That scene is better than this whole episode. It’s perfect.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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