Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

micks_address · 26-04-2019 03:40PM

kerplun k wrote: »

Loved the film, I won’t do the normal review thingy as I generally agree with most of the stuff already said on here, but one thing I kind of want to talk about is my growing itch I have with the MCU formula. It probably sounds like I'm sh1tting all over this, but honestly I'm not, I love these films, but like some others have said, I'm not sure I even want to continue the journey after this.

I find when I’m watching the latest marvel movies I keep thinking about a Tim Burton movie I saw called Big Eyes, if you haven’t seen it, it’s essentially a movie about an artist that paints her different subjects in a similar style, the artist is Margaret Keane, Google her images and you'll see what I mean, the paintings are all variations of things using the same style, anyhews, about halfway through the movie her paintings reaches the height of their fame and Keane is tasked with painting a piece called Tomorrow Forever, and again she uses the same style and technique to produce her biggest and best work, which is basically the same thing she normally does but more of it, squeezed into this one huge painting displaying all her work. And that’s how I about the VFX in Infinity War and Endgame, its Marvels version of Tomorrow Forever.

These are the most "MCU" films yet, what I mean by that is that they use the same generic VFX, but more of it, and like Margaret Keane, the art is perfectly fine, but its the same dam thing, just more of it.

The MCU seem to be relying more and more on VFX, Maybe because its cheaper and less time-consuming, it’s probably more convenient to use VFX to make changes in post-production than to do reshoots, I dunno. Let’s look at some of the VFX counts from some of the moves, Information was sourced from upcomingvfxmovies.com

phase 1,
Film, VFX
The Avengers, 2200
Thor, 1309
Iron Man 2, 1000
Iron Man, 800

Now let’s look at the VFX counts from some of the films post phase 1

phase 2 and 3
Film, VFX
Avengers: Infinity War, 2680
Black Panther, 2456
GOTG V2, 2300
Civil War, 3000
Doctor Strange, 1450
Avengers: Age of Ultron, 3000
Guardians of the Galaxy, 2750
Winter Soldier, 2500
Iron Man 3, 2000

I think it’s fair to say from this that VFX within the MCU has seen a large spike.
Why do I have a problem with this... It’s simple, The MCU hands off the VFX in their movies to a special effects team which gives a director less input on the finished product.

As the movies become more dependent on special effects, the room for creativity is diminished at least in terms of the visuals.
As the VFX become more prevalent, it now seems like the VFX artists are directing these movies, leaving the actual director with less of a chance to put their own stamp it.
When these films do shine, it’s through the dialogue and character moments, this is where the directors can actually put their own spin on things.

This can be highlighted with two films from Directed by Ryan Coogler. Creed and Black Panther.

Let’s first look at the big fight scene from Black Panther, look at the CGI, look at the character movements, and look at the ever increasing ignorance for the basic laws of physics

After watching this, many accused Coogler of being inexperienced in doing actions scenes, but my argument against this was his work on Creed.

Let’s look at one of my favourite shots from this film

Now, tell me this man doesn’t know how to direct an action scene.

so again, what’s the problem with BP? why is the action scenes so bland and generic, especially when you compare it to some of his work on Creed, If you ask me, I think the answer is that Coogler hasn’t got much say on the action in BP.

When discussing the visuals of MCU films these same type of accusations are leveled at the Russo brothers and again I would argue that this is not their fault, Its the ever increasing influence of Feiges insistence that the visuals are outsourced to the SFX team.

Take a look at this article from screenrant.[/URL] Marvel even has a crash course for new indie directors that come in to direct their movies.

Normally when we go see these type of action moves, we tolerate things like a lose plot or one dimensional characters because we get rewarded with the big action pieces, but with the MCU, things have been turned on its head a little, the big action scenes come secondary to the characters, we almost tolerate the SFX because we love the characters and relationships between those characters. The highlights are the dialogues and moments between these characters.
When people talk about their favorite parts of IW, it’s the Stark/Parker relationship, or Thor/GOTG bits, the jokes, etc., not one person came to be and said "I loved the bit when Thanos threw that moon at Stark".

The MCU has got away the dodgy VFX for so long now because we've had 9 years of character development, the ground work was done in phase 1 without a ton of green screen, heck even, and the main event of phase 1, The Avengers had less VFX than most of the films in phase 2 and 3.

I think this poses is a huge problem for the MCU, because if this is the end, and they plan to start a new chapter, they won't have the luxury of build up from previous moves that laid the ground work.

Look at a side by side from the original Iron Man and endgame.

Look at the original Iron Man trailer

Look at the movements, the suit, look how real it looks, and then compare this to some of the scenes in Captain Marvel, BP IW and Endgame and tell me this isn't a problem.

Now, in saying all of that, I get that IW and Endgame are Marvels Tomorrow Forever, it needs to be big, the people demand it, its the season final after all, however, If this really is the end like Marvel are claiming, they should go all in, and do the same with the VFX process.

I say start again, start small, hire creatives like they did in phase 1 and let them actually direct their own actions sequences, give them full creative control, and let them establish their own unique style, because if the MCU really is serious about starting over, and you take a movie like Shang-Chi, and you try pull this generic gravity defying, rubbery movement, laser bean shooting up into the sky crap, no one will care.

I think going forward, if the MCU want to remain relevant, they really do need to start over and take a chance and trust the creative process rather than special effects.

I think it's fair to say once they hit space and guardians etc the vfx was always going to go through the roof. I don't disagree re the fight scenes some looked like computer game sequences but there's fantastical stuff going on that I don't think would be very easy to re create in the real world

26-04-2019 04:03PM

GavRedKing wrote: »

I didnt like Black Panther or Captain Marvel, I think they were average enough origin stories that were pandering and some people were afraid to criticise at the time, in saying that, both were better than Ant Man & the Wasp and Dr. Strange, IMO.

Ya know the worst thing? I love both Characters, just not the MCU versions (although Panther is loosening up a bit and growing on me)

Mitch Connor · 26-04-2019 04:04PM

I didn't feel there was a problem with the physicality or fighting in Winger Soldier or civil war - i thought both were excellent for it. Both also Directed by the Russo's. Both high on the VFX count. The Civil War did struggle in the larger scenes in the airport for example (but Bucky's escape, fight vs Cross Bones, Cap and Buck vs Iron Man were very good imo)

As to why BP was a bit poor for it - maybe its because they are not supposed to move or behave like fully humans. They are supposed to have cat like qualities to their agility, speed, reactions, movement etc.

titan18 · 26-04-2019 04:20PM

I was a bit disappointed by it tbh. It's not a bad film, but it's weaker than IW, and a good bit more than some or the stronger individual films.

I don't think they show the devastation well, and cos of the decision with time travel and leaving the 5 years, there's plot holes all over the place. Few eye rolling moments too (that stupid girl power shot and Thor's beer belly) that really don't work imo.

Ethereal Cereal · 26-04-2019 04:53PM

titan18 wrote: »

I was a bit disappointed by it tbh. It's not a bad film, but it's weaker than IW, and a good bit more than some or the stronger individual films.

I don't think they show the devastation well, and cos of the decision with time travel and leaving the 5 years, there's plot holes all over the place. Few eye rolling moments too (that stupid girl power shot and Thor's beer belly) that really don't work imo.

Yea, this is kind of how I felt. They never properly acknowledged the millions of human lives that were lost regardless of whether the snap was reversed or not. Thor's beerbelly was played for laughs, rather than expanding on the broken man we saw at the start of the movie with severe survivors guilt.

The whole movie seemed really comedic, which lessened done if the tension and peril for me.

Foxtrol · 26-04-2019 05:18PM

For me, that movie was a fantastic achievement. Sure there were some flaws, but I can’t believe they did such a satisfying job tying up the 21 previous movies. Really looking forward to a second or more viewings to get my head fully around it. I watched it in a giant 600 seater IMAX and with the size of the screen I feel I missed things, especially in the final fight.

Can understand some who thought there was too much humour but I felt they balanced out well enough, with most being grim enough and this providing a nice respite.

Think it says a lot that the most consistent complaint raised here appears to be a 10 second shot of female characters, albeit one that could have been done more subtly.

Gardiner 2001 · 26-04-2019 05:28PM

Very good film. Just wondering nw was it all talk of a new black widow film just to throw us off the scent what happens in this film or will that be somehow still getting made?

Foxtrol · 26-04-2019 05:33PM

Gardiner 2001 wrote: »

Very good film. Just wondering nw was it all talk of a new black widow film just to throw us off the scent what happens in this film or will that be somehow still getting made?

I always expected/hoped it to be a prequel/origin story. They've regularly teased her early years, right up to why she owed Barton, and I think it is the most interesting direction to go with it.

Post Thanos, I don't see how she'd end up off by herself in an interesting story.

khaldrogo · 26-04-2019 05:37PM

Well, that was emotional!!!

titan18 · 26-04-2019 05:38PM

Gardiner 2001 wrote:

Very good film. Just wondering nw was it all talk of a new black widow film just to throw us off the scent what happens in this film or will that be somehow still getting made?

That's got to be a prequel. Probably how she meets Hawkeye or joins SHIELD would be likeliest imo

Gardiner 2001 · 26-04-2019 05:40PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I always expected/hoped it to be a prequel/origin story. They've regularly teased her early years, right up to why she owed Barton, and I think it is the most interesting direction to go with it.

Post Thanos, I don't see how she'd end up off by herself in an interesting story.

Was thinking that myself you just never know with the way they are thinking but your probably right with an origin story until it makes a billion and there like hmmmm maybe she did somehow survive....

khaldrogo · 26-04-2019 05:41PM

Don't think I've ever left a cinema thinking I need to watch the film again, soon. Just from a stand point that there was so much in it. Did not feel like 3hrs at all.

Gardiner 2001 · 26-04-2019 05:41PM

titan18 wrote: »

That's got to be a prequel. Probably how she meets Hawkeye or joins SHIELD would be likeliest imo

Makes sense. Another way to have Hawkeye in it as well as he wouldn't be one of the stronger characters in my opinion

titan18 · 26-04-2019 05:47PM

Gardiner 2001 wrote:

Makes sense. Another way to have Hawkeye in it as well as he wouldn't be one of the stronger characters in my opinion

Yup. Can bring Hawkeye and Fury in it. Set it late 90s, early 2000s or something

khaldrogo · 26-04-2019 05:48PM

Gardiner 2001 wrote:

Makes sense. Another way to have Hawkeye in it as well as he wouldn't be one of the stronger characters in my opinion

I'd have more interest in a Ronin movie than a Hawkeye movie. He was calling his daughter Hawkeye in one scene. Could be setting up something there?

titan18 · 26-04-2019 05:49PM

khaldrogo wrote:

I'd have more interest in a Ronin movie than a Hawkeye movie. He was calling his daughter Hawkeye in one scene. Could be setting up something there?

I was fair disappointed he wasn't called Ronin once in this

Foxtrol · 26-04-2019 05:53PM

titan18 wrote: »

Yup. Can bring Hawkeye and Fury in it. Set it late 90s, early 2000s or something

Feel they could span a longer period of time, show more of her childhood etc and lead up to whatever situation with Barton/Fury/SHIELD. Given we know them they could be introduced late in the movie or her adversaries.

Gardiner 2001 · 26-04-2019 05:55PM

titan18 wrote: »

Yup. Can bring Hawkeye and Fury in it. Set it late 90s, early 2000s or something

True as Samuel l Jackson always saying he wants his own film so another way to get him into the film

Penn · 26-04-2019 06:00PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I'm all for the empowerment of women, but marvel would have served its self and female empowerment better if they'd gotten the finger out years ago and had a female driven movie, or not fridged their female avenger for feckin Hawkeye!!
They managed a balanced empowering movie in Black Panther that didn't look like pandering to women, so they're capable of it, they just don't seem to care and thought a token gesture was enough!

In fairness though, I appreciated how they did Widow's death in that she wasn't sacrificed, or they didn't fail to save her etc. She wasn't "fridged". She sacrificed herself. She went out on her own terms by her own choice. I found her death to be more about her story arc (and the end of it) than serving Hawkeye's.

IRE60 · 26-04-2019 06:16PM

khaldrogo wrote: »

Don't think I've ever left a cinema thinking I need to watch the film again, soon. Just from a stand point that there was so much in it. Did not feel like 3hrs at all.

Thanks! my thoughts exactly. My son asked me this morning could he see it again - he has more questions about this one then the last (which i though would be impossible)

And yea - the three hours had me concerned on the run up - but it flew by, very engaging film.

Edit: went IMAX and 3d - first Imax for me - double first for the young guest = really recommend the combo!

26-04-2019 06:20PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Think it says a lot that the most consistent complaint raised here appears to be a 10 second shot of female characters, albeit one that could have been done more subtly.

It's not the 10 seconds though. I was fully engaged with the onscreen action, it completely broke me out at a fairly climatic section.

Tefral · 26-04-2019 06:35PM

Not about the film per se, however theres a really cool non spoiler easter egg on google.

Google Thanos and then navigate to the right to click on the little mini gauntlet. Click on the gauntlet.

Have a look at the search results too. When its finished click it again. Then look at the search results..

Pretty Cool

Foxtrol · 26-04-2019 06:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the 10 seconds though. I was fully engaged with the onscreen action, it completely broke me out at a fairly climatic section.

The infamous circular shot from the first Avengers movie was also during a climatic section of the movie. They also managed to ram in one into AoU, in the church during the final battle.

This is arguably the most forced, but it isn't by much. I'm pretty confident that if it was any other group of characters, other than female heros, then it wouldn't get more than a passing comment. Some people are just hypersensitive about these sort of nods.

Overheal · 26-04-2019 06:47PM

If you spent any time on youtube or gizmodo or anywhere else in the last year or so, nothing really surprised you about this movie: RDJ and Evans were done with their contracts and it was inevitable they would go out in some crescendo fashion at some point, and both of them did.

Cap’s ending was foreshadowed throughout his entire cinematic run, from the end of Cap 1 through Civil War and by the heavy handed way they reminded the casual audience that he still had a Peggy memento in Endgame. The passing on of the shield was good, and Sam is a better choice right now than Bucky, who is still effectively reeling from his Winter Soldier days and hasn't got his heart fully in it right now. There are the time paradox questions, since the scene violated the movie's own stated rules about time travel, because Cap should have ended up in an alternate future, not the same one he left from, given that he significantly changes the past by eloping with Peggy, unless I missed something, because she says she married, in Winter Soldier (via museum clip):

"That was a difficult winter. A blizzard had trapped half our battalion behind the German line. Steve... Captain Rogers, he fought his way through a HYDRA blockade that had pinned our allies down for months. He saved over a thousand men, including the man who would... who would become my husband as it turned out."

They could retcon this to say that is secretly Steve himself, and thus its a self-fulfilling paradox or whatever, and so he'd age through the same timeline, but it just doesn't seem to fit. People would surely know that was Rogers, if so? She was too tied in to SHIELD for them not to notice her husband was Captain America. This is a hard thing to nitpick about but because I'm that kind of nerd (who watched BTTF, Bill and Ted, and other aforementioned films while the team mocked Scott Lang) it was distracting enough that it pulled me out of what should be an otherwise great ending, me manly throat did tense up a smidge seeing him off in the distance on that bench though.

Tony’s end was a bit less certain going into the movie but still unsurprising: this became his arc as early as Avengers 1, making the sacrifice play, the PTSD, the armor around the world (which he reminds everyone about here), and is all but heavily foreshadowed in Act 2 with the way we get to see how his life would play out, child and all, he even gets to have an emotional moment with his dad in the 1970s where he essentially gets to tell him what he wanted to anyway with the BARF. So its not like his death robs the audience of his character arc: they’ve already shown it to us (and he can still live on in hologram form, clearly, when/if needed), for the same reason his death lacked the feeling of any gut punch to me, even though he’s the father of the MCU. Plus, RDJ in the bath robe we get a glimpse that as an actor he's physically beginning to show his age.

I did like his last line: “And I, am Iron Man,” which harks back to basically THE moment audiences knew the MCU was born, and that Iron Man wasn't just some on-screen facsimile of a comic book but would take on life of its own, eschewing the then-standard 'secret identity' trope. But for purely fantheory reasons, I would have preferred his Iron Gauntlet was left-handed (reason being the first thing we see in the MCU is Tony holding a scotch on the rocks, left-handed, in the Fun-vee) but it’s equally fitting I guess that they use a right-handed one to set things right, herp.

From the first act of course any doubt you may have had that the MCU was throwing you red herrings about the quantum realm/time travel were dismissed, when Thanos loses his head. But how they reintroduce 2014 Black Order was actually pretty sweet, it was reasonably clever. It did make me wonder why Tony doesn’t accidentally link back up with JARVIS or his home cluster when he travels back to 2012 though on accident, but presumably he'd just turned his Wi-fi off.

Cap holding Mjolnir was foreshadowed in Ultron of course, but it was still a surprise here just because we had forgot about Mjolnir for a little bit. Maybe Cap was worthy back then, but he just ‘didn’t want to’ pick it up. Thor getting that scene with his mom was sweet BTW. Thor as Lebowski was a bit overplayed, but then again they had to hit a sweet spot where even a few minutes less would have seemed cheap. Also they clearly just borrowed stock footage of Portman?

The New York stuff was all great. America’s Ass, Hulk in the staircase, Loki (and the possible setup for the Disney+ show), Hydra/the nod to the most epic brawl in the MCU, the joke about the ‘Hero Pose’ at the end of Avengers 1, Prof. Hulk’s whole exchange with the Sorcerer Supreme, they nailed it. Heck, nobody’s even gonna question all the building damage Cap and Cap did, because Chitauri. The only bugger I have here is how they go from Tesseract -> Space Stone -> Tesseract when they have to return it to its point in time.

I really wish they had done a better job of explaining the Soul stone: Red Skull is “cursed” with knowing everyone who comes to Vormir; Thanos was “not the only one cursed with knowledge,” just after acquiring the soul stone and encountering Tony - I would have liked knowing that the reason Thanos is that familiar with Stark was the Stone (or even the explanation behind Kid Gamora) but I guess they do dismiss this because yes duh, Thanos knows the Avengers. But that is lame. To me anyway. Just a tad. In Infinity War we see Power, Space, Reality, and Time each get some legit limelight, but the Mind Stone only sort of (Vision's pew pew head laser, and ostensibly all of Scarlet Witch's powers) but neither the mind stone or the soul stone are seen used as standalone infinity stones.

Professor Hulk was just all the way awesome, through and through. Carol Danvers' new haircut looked fresh AF, comic come to life.

Great movie, not my favorite, but totes a blast. Gives us the fanservice the MCU was building up to but somehow didn’t hit all cylinders for me. I have to chew on this more. Maybe the film will appreciate or depreciate on me. Some characters felt shortchanged, like Rhodey, Okoye, etc. - Ebony Maw who was conveyed as such a telekinetic threat in Infinity War gets treated like a mid tier scrub here (as do all of the Children of Thanos). And what about poor Eitri did they just fck off and leave him forever alone on Nidavellir again? And that Girl Power moment was verrry contrived, but fck it, it may as well have been a direct 'fck you, trolls' response to fragile males online who have been enraged about diversity since, Gamergate or something.

I see it again on Saturday in genuine-aspect IMAX 3D instead of a matinee screen maybe that will help - given it’s one of 2 films to be fully filmed in (some version of) IMAX, that would be the way to give it its full due.

I am SO ready for Asgardians of the Galaxy.

26-04-2019 07:04PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The infamous circular shot from the first Avengers movie was also during a climatic section of the movie. They also managed to ram in one into AoU, in the church during the final battle.

This is arguably the most forced, but it isn't by much. I'm pretty confident that if it was any other group of characters, other than female heros, then it wouldn't get more than a passing comment. Some people are just hypersensitive about these sort of nods.

I was going to point to the Ultron one too. It was shot in a (contrived yes) way to bring them together and had the small-ish principal cast but there was a reason that they were all there defending that one point.

Endgame one was that but pushed way past 11, they were a group of people with no real reason to know/find/come together on the battle field and NOT for the group shot of Avengers 1&2 but for a committee driven reason.
Most of those characters were absolutely owning it, in their battle scenes. They did not need a pandering shot.

Foxtrol · 26-04-2019 07:27PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I was going to point to the Ultron one too. It was shot in a (contrived yes) way to bring them together and had the small-ish principal cast but there was a reason that they were all there defending that one point.

Endgame one was that but pushed way past 11, they were a group of people with no real reason to know/find/come together on the battle field and NOT for the group shot of Avengers 1&2 but for a committee driven reason.
Most of those characters were absolutely owning it, in their battle scenes. They did not need a pandering shot.

They didn’t need this shot, but they didn’t need the other clearly forced group shots either. They’re all there as ‘f*ck yeah’ moments and though this one might not resonate for you, I’m sure it did for many (especially a group that has been grossly underrepresented by the MCU thus far).

I don’t disagree with most of your points, I just feel the consistency of the complaints is over the top and a sign of hypersensitivity we see from a lot of people when it comes to blockbusters these days.

AMKC · 26-04-2019 08:01PM

So seen it today. I thought it took to long to get going nearly an hour with very little happening and then the rest was ok but nothing great. It was better than Infinity War which was hardly going to be hard is it was only a below average film anyway but Id say this is an average film. A lot of it was predictable and while there was some humour there was not much.
I thought there was a lot of bits that did not link well like Nebula ended up back with them in the future even do she did not come back with your man but we did not see her coming back either. What I mean is we see her on the ad but not coming back with him so she should have not been there and then there was Cap A able to use Thors Hammer like Why and How? Also I was disappointed that Captain Marvel did not get that much to do it was obvious who was going to die. Sure I knew that from last year.

So ye just 5 out of 10 from me.

Oh ye and by the way its only 2hours 40mins long not 3hours long.

johnny_ultimate · 26-04-2019 08:05PM

I’ll just say this: this whole bloody movie is pandering :pac:

It’s an endless stream of fan service, cameos, callbacks, references, winks and nods. There’s 30-odd seconds, in a 180 minute film, where the women group up to kick some ass. Is it silly and contrived? Absolutely. It hardly makes up for the franchise’s weak record in giving its female stars their due. But it’s a film where the Hulk is a glasses-wearing nerd, there’s an alien rock monster with a New Zealand accent playing Fortnite, and a (final) completely unnecessary Stan Lee cameo (RIP to him and all, but his scenes throughout the MCU are the ultimate case of pulling the viewer right out of the story). If a few young girls or boys get a kick out of finally seeing the Marvel women team up for a couple of seconds, that’s the most important thing

Mitch Connor · 26-04-2019 08:06PM

AMKC wrote: »

So seen it today. I thought it took to long to get going nearly an hour with very little happening and then the rest was ok but nothing great. It was better than Infinity War which was hardly going to be hard is it was only a below average film anyway but Id say this is an average film. A lot of it was predictable and while there was some humour there was not much.
I thought there was a lot of bits that did not link well like Nebula ended up back with them in the future even do she did not come back with your man but we did not see her coming back either. What I mean is we see her on the ad but not coming back with him so she should have not been there and then there was Cap A able to use Thors Hammer like Why and How? Also I was disappointed that Captain Marvel did not get that much to do it was obvious who was going to die. Sure I knew that from last year.

So ye just 5 out of 10 from me.

Oh ye and by the way its only 2hours 40mins long not 3hours long.

THe nebula in the second half of the movie is the 'evil' nebula from the past. the present day one never returns (kinda sad that, hadn't thought of it.)

Cap America was worthy. that is why he could weild the hammer. It was hinted at in Age of Ultron.

ixoy · 26-04-2019 08:10PM

AMKC wrote: »

Oh ye and by the way its only 2hours 40mins long not 3hours long.

No, it's 3 hours long. I checked my watch when it began and when it ended. The running time includes the credits as the listed time always does.

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]