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Anti-vaxxers

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    #3302
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,971 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Varta wrote: »
    I have no problem with a blunt manner. I also fully understand a reluctance to acknowledge vaccine issues for fear of encouraging anti-vaxxers, however, that's still not acceptable. As for data, if medics refuse to acknowledge incidents, never mind report them, how can there be data? If credibility is to be maintained, and it is essential that it is, then the whole process should be open and transparent and medics/scientists should respond rather than react. Despite how frustrated they might be with the anti-vaxxers.

    I don't accept that medics are refusing to acknowledge incidents. That would be highly irresponsible.

    Vaccines aren't just developed and sold like the latest iPhone. They have to be rigorously assessed for safety and efficacy.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3303
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,261 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Amantine wrote: »
    I am a parent and I absolutely am an expert in my children. I know them like I made them, gave birth to them, and lived with them since the day they were born.

    No you’re not. Wait till they’re teenagers.

    :D


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    #3304
    ollkiller
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    Amantine wrote: »
    I am a parent and I absolutely am an expert in my children. I know them like I made them, gave birth to them, and lived with them since the day they were born.

    Sure that's all that's needed to be a doctor then. Feck going to Medical school, studying all that nonsense. Why hasn't the medical profession copped on to this.

    As you're such an expert on your children can you post up what the hemoglobin rate is in your children is and the composition of their DNA genome. Because you're an expert right?


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    #3305
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Amantine wrote: »
    Search the thread, there is lots of evidence that vaccines are not risk free. Show me a single study that proves that the HPV protects from cervical cancer. There is no such thing.
    And please, do NOT patronise a parent on what did or did not cause their child's illness.

    I've been in the thread for months. I've yet to see a credible piece of evidence. Blogs, predatory journals and YouTube videos do not count. In addition, I'm unwilling to pander to vulnerable parents attempting to find something to blame autism on... Those who would exploit that are predatory.


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    #3306
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't accept that medics are refusing to acknowledge incidents. That would be highly irresponsible.

    Vaccines aren't just developed and sold like the latest iPhone. They have to be rigorously assessed for safety and efficacy.

    Breathtaking. If you didn't see it happen then it didn't happen. And, of course, no medic has ever acted irresponsibly... not even Wakefield.

    "They have to be rigorously assessed for safety and efficacy"
    Of course they are, but can you say that every fridge in every GP's surgery is working perfectly?


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    #3307
    Amantine
    Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭Amantine


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Im guessing you would similarly be equally happy diagnosing and self medicating yourself via internet sources with absolutely zero consultation from a medical professional as if you are as you claim an expert on your children you must have even more expertise regarding yourself?

    Of course I get medical advice, why would you assume otherwise? Actually, I'm studying biomedicine and in the next 2 years I will have to do 200 clinical hours and but this is hardly relevant to this thread, neither are personal attacks.
    My point is that a parent can tell when their child is different, more so than any professional because they can see the change. Yet, the story I hear is always the same. They have to fight to get any sort of recognition that something has happened and will usually get no help from the HSE.
    If it is such a rare event, it's not so rare since even on this thread there are parents making that exact claim. Actually there are hundreds of parents making that claim in Ireland alone. All after vaccinating their child, so clearly NOT "anti-vaxxers".


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    #3308
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,971 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Varta wrote: »
    Breathtaking. If you didn't see it happen then it didn't happen. And, of course, no medic has ever acted irresponsibly... not even Wakefield.

    "They have to be rigorously assessed for safety and efficacy"
    Of course they are, but can you say that every fridge in every GP's surgery is working perfectly?

    Why the silly strawmen? I've only your word to go on and, given your tone here I'm disinclined to trust it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3309
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    Amantine wrote: »
    Of course I get medical advice, why would you assume otherwise? Actually, I'm studying biomedicine and in the next 2 years I will have to do 200 clinical hours and but this is hardly relevant to this thread, neither are personal attacks.
    My point is that a parent can tell when their child is different, more so than any professional because they can see the change. Yet, the story I hear is always the same. They have to fight to get any sort of recognition that something has happened and will usually get no help from the HSE.
    If it is such a rare event, it's not so rare since even on this thread there are parents making that exact claim. Actually there are hundreds of parents making that claim in Ireland alone. All after vaccinating their child, so clearly NOT "anti-vaxxers".

    It doesn’t really matter that what we are trying to do is just say, that all things should be questioned and this should be welcomed if it means potentially making vaccines safer for all kids but we will still be called anti-vaccinators and crazy for doing so!

    Apparently us parents with Autistic kids don’t accept them for who they are either because we question the safety of vaccines and the possibility that they may be responsible or partially responsible for what has happened them.

    It’s laughable really, that people make this statement. It really angers my wife, you couldn’t come across a better mother who has devoted everything and all her time to both our kids and is an incredible mother but apparently she mustn’t accept her daughter by questioning things!!


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    #3310
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭megaten


    tony1980 wrote: »
    It doesn’t really matter that what we are trying to do is just say, that all things should be questioned and this should be welcomed if it means potentially making vaccines safer for all kids but we will still be called anti-vaccinators and crazy for doing so!

    Apparently us parents with Autistic kids don’t accept them for who they are either because we question the safety of vaccines and the possibility that they may be responsible or partially responsible for what has happened them.

    It’s laughable really, that people make this statement. It really angers my wife, you couldn’t come across a better mother who has devoted everything and all her time to both our kids and is an incredible mother but apparently she mustn’t accept her daughter by questioning things!!

    I mean if it makes you feel better most would consider you a victim taken advantage of in a vulnerable situation rather than someone who actively campaigns to hurt other people's children through encouraging negligence.


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    #3311
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    megaten wrote: »
    I mean if it makes you feel better most would consider you a victim taken advantage of in a vulnerable situation rather than someone who actively campaigns to hurt other people's children through encouraging negligence.
    How am I encouraging negligence? You were able to type out your post so I’m assuming you can read?

    Edit: Questioning things is now a campaign, what a funny way of looking at things. Questioning may help make Vaccines even safer, a good thing for all kids I’m sure you would agree, also, who took advantage of us?


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    #3312
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭megaten


    tony1980 wrote: »
    How am I encouraging negligence? You were able to type out your post so I’m assuming you can read?

    Discouraging use of vaccines is encouraging negligence. Vaccines only work when enough people are vaccinated that it prevents whats vaccinated against from spreading.


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    #3313
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    tony1980 wrote: »
    How am I encouraging negligence? You were able to type out your post so I’m assuming you can read?

    Edit: Questioning things is now a campaign, what a funny way of looking at things. Questioning may help make Vaccines even safer, a good thing for all kids I’m sure you would agree, also, who took advantage of us?

    How is "questioning things" making vaccines safer?


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    #3314
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    megaten wrote: »
    Discouraging use of vaccines is encouraging negligence. Vaccines only work when enough people are vaccinated that it prevents whats vaccinated against from spreading.

    I question things so vaccines may be safer, I never discouraged the use of them but I do question if they can be safer which I don’t think means discouraging other parents from vaccinating their kids.

    Out of curiosity, have you any kids with Autism?


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    #3315
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    jh79 wrote: »
    How is "questioning things" making vaccines safer?

    Seriously?


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    #3316
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭megaten


    tony1980 wrote: »
    I question things so vaccines may be safer, I never discouraged the use of them but I do question if they can be safer which I don’t think means discouraging other parents from vaccinating their kids.

    Out of curiosity, have you any kids with Autism?

    What questions are you asking?


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    #3317
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    tony1980 wrote: »
    Seriously?

    Yes, what tangible difference are you making by " questioning things" that isn't happening regardless as part of post approval studies?


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    #3318
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Why the silly strawmen? I've only your word to go on and, given your tone here I'm disinclined to trust it.

    What strawmen? What's wrong with my tone? Your own tone leaves a lot to be desired at times. As for only having my word to go on, well, that might be down to the fact that the medics refused to countenance any issue with either the vaccination or how it was administered, therefore there is no data or record. Which is precisely the point I made. If they won't collect the evidence then it's easy to claim that there is no evidence. (I'm not referring to Autism BTW. That connection was debunked as a con many times over. In my child's case it was a very severe respiratory - and known - reaction.).

    Let me be very clear. I am pro vaccination. I am alarmed at the drop in the rate of vaccination, however, I don't believe that it can be addressed by dismissing genuine issues when they arise. Doing so just increases scepticism. And I certainly don't believe it can be addressed by bullying people, e.g. get your children vaccinated or we'll do it for you. I'm a firm believer in the power of good PR in winning people over.


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    #3319
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    jh79 wrote: »
    How is "questioning things" making vaccines safer?

    Questioning things is the very basis of science.


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    #3320
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Varta wrote: »
    Questioning things is the very basis of science.

    Yes but what tangible difference are you making by " questioning things" that isn't happening regardless as part of post approval studies?


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    #3321
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    tony1980 wrote: »
    Seriously?

    There is absolutely zero proof that vaccines cause autism. Claiming they do is endangering lives as it's creating an endless cycle of people not vaccinating their children over unfounded claims and conspiracies.


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    #3322
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    Varta wrote: »
    Questioning things is the very basis of science.

    Exactly! Didn’t think I’d have to explain that one and what I mean by it in a general manner is, if we all as Parents as a collective, question and want the best and safest way of them receiving the vaccinations which I know we all do, then it is only a good thing! I don’t think insulting each other is of any benefit to us. That’s not aimed at anything said to me, just in general as it seems to be quite a common thing for people to do to anyone who questions anything about the vaccines safety.


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    #3323
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    batgoat wrote: »
    There is absolutely zero proof that vaccines cause autism. Claiming they do is endangering lives as it's creating an endless cycle of people not vaccinating their children over unfounded claims and conspiracies.

    Is there a 100% proof they have no contribution towards causing or triggering Autism? The last time I checked, they have no idea so I prefer to question things and I shall pass nobody any apology for that!


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    #3324
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭megaten


    tony1980 wrote: »
    Exactly! Didn’t think I’d have to explain that one and what I mean by it in a general manner is, if we all as Parents as a collective, question and want the best and safest way of them receiving the vaccinations which I know we all do, then it is only a good thing! I don’t think insulting each other is of any benefit to us. That’s not aimed at anything said to me, just in general as it seems to be quite a common thing for people to do to anyone who questions anything about the vaccines safety.

    And when you get an answer what do you do with it? Or do you keep asking the same question forever?


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    #3325
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    tony1980 wrote: »
    Exactly! Didn’t think I’d have to explain that one and what I mean by it in a general manner is, if we all as Parents as a collective, question and want the best and safest way of them receiving the vaccinations which I know we all do, then it is only a good thing! I don’t think insulting each other is of any benefit to us. That’s not aimed at anything said to me, just in general as it seems to be quite a common thing for people to do to anyone who questions anything about the vaccines safety.

    The manner in which people are being attacked for asking questions regarding vaccinations is creating a situation whereby people with genuine concerns are being driven into the arms of the anti-vaxxers, and is only serving to increase the number of people who are making the mistake of not vaccinating.


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    #3326
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭megaten


    Varta wrote: »
    The manner in which people are being attacked for asking questions regarding vaccinations is creating a situation whereby people with genuine concerns are being driven into the arms of the anti-vaxxers, and is only serving to increase the number of people who are making the mistake of not vaccinating.

    Then what do you do when the literal answer to a question is viewed as an attack?


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    #3327
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    tony1980 wrote: »
    Is there a 100% proof they have no contribution towards causing or triggering Autism? The last time I checked, they have no idea so I prefer to question things and I shall pass nobody any apology for that!

    TBF there has been a great deal of independent research on this issue and no evidence whatsoever has been found to link vaccines with autism. Perhaps what's required is more research into autism.


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    #3328
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    megaten wrote: »
    Then what do you do when the literal answer to a question is viewed as an attack?

    I don't know. For my own part I would always be grateful for an answer. But they are very difficult to come by. I'm not referring to Autism.


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    #3329
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    tony1980 wrote: »
    Is there a 100% proof they have no contribution towards causing or triggering Autism? The last time I checked, they have no idea so I prefer to question things and I shall pass nobody any apology for that!

    By your logic there has to be 100% proof that vaccines do not cause an unlimited amount of ailments for them to be deemed safe and for you to not question them?

    Why pick Autism? Why not Cancer or Asthma or Heart disease?

    Have you read any peer reviewed papers that perhaps answer your concerns? Or would you rather scour the internet and cherry pick idiot studies and pages that fit your concerns?


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    #3330
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭megaten


    Varta wrote: »
    I don't know. For my own part I would always be grateful for an answer. But they are very difficult to come by. I'm not referring to Autism.

    What are you referring to?


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    #3331
    tony1980
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭tony1980


    Varta wrote: »
    The manner in which people are being attacked for asking questions regarding vaccinations is creating a situation whereby people with genuine concerns are being driven into the arms of the anti-vaxxers, and is only serving to increase the number of people who are making the mistake of not vaccinating.

    I agree with this and I agree completely about all these Facebook Groups causing Hysteria too. Nobody will have any arguments from me on that at all.

    I have watched some good documentaries about the whole area which I am not stupid enough to just 100% believe they are just true but I do think some of the questions they bring forward are important and should be looked at. I’ll see if I can get hold of one or two later when I have the time and I’m very open to any debate about their validity but my hope from them is that they are at least looked at and can be proven to be right or wrong because I don’t think we should be just told we have to shut up and do what we are told, we as Parents should be allowed to question anything our children are given without it causing mass hysteria.


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