Anti-vaxxers

Igotadose

Amantine wrote: »

Indiscriminate vaccination should be avoided. The necessity of each vaccine should be discussed in every case. Consider the possible harm that may be caused vs. its benefit. Every case should be considered individually. When one child in the family has suffered some vaccine damage, greater care must be taken with the other children. It really depends on genetics, autoimmunity in the family, the risk of being exposed to the pathogen that is being vaccinated against and the risks of the vaccine according to the latest research. Certain adjuvants come with an inherent risk, especially for vulnerable populations.

How do you define 'indiscriminate'? Vaccines like the HSE schedule posted are vetted by experts.
Considering each case individually will greatly reduce the frequency of vaccinations and the percentage of children immunized simply due to the volume of cases thrown into the system. Now, if one child has suffered some "damage" (and, how do you define damage?), then yes the family in question should consult with their doctor on the right way to proceed.

And the 'risk of being exposed to the pathogen' is related to the percentage of people vaccinated - so, more vaccinated, lower risk. All good.

Which adjuvatants have an inherent risk, and what is the risk?

DublinWriter

Igotadose wrote: »

What's wrong with Thimerosal?

From the Merck Safety data sheet on Thiomersal Ph Eur, BP, USP, 2005/6/12:

Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[21] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.

From the US FDA website:

Other than allergic responses in some individuals, there was no known health risk from thimerosal-preservative at the concentration used in vaccines, but in 1999, the Public Health Service (including the FDA, National Institutes of Health (NIH), CDC, and Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)), along with the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) concluded that because of scientific uncertainty at the time, as a precautionary measure, that it was prudent to reduce childhood exposure to mercury from all sources, including vaccines, as feasible.

Note the phrase "scientific uncertainty".

ancapailldorcha

DublinWriter wrote: »

From the Merck Safety data sheet on Thiomersal Ph Eur, BP, USP, 2005/6/12:

Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[21] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.

From the US FDA website:

Other than allergic responses in some individuals, there was no known health risk from thimerosal-preservative at the concentration used in vaccines, but in 1999, the Public Health Service (including the FDA, National Institutes of Health (NIH), CDC, and Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)), along with the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) concluded that because of scientific uncertainty at the time, as a precautionary measure, that it was prudent to reduce childhood exposure to mercury from all sources, including vaccines, as feasible.

Note the phrase "scientific uncertainty".

What concentration is toxicity observed at and how much is used in the vaccine?

DublinWriter

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What concentration is toxicity observed at and how much is used in the vaccine?

Which particular vaccine?

Igotadose

DublinWriter wrote: »

Which particular vaccine?

The only FDA approved vaccines containing thimerosal are flu vaccines: https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

Thimerosal was removed from children's vaccines in 2001.

So, nothing to worry about here unless you take the particular flu vaccine.

political analyst

When Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to let their children have life-saving blood transfusions, the courts intervene to ensure that the transfusions happen. So why doesn't the government have the law changed to legally oblige all parents of children who are medically fit to have the MMR vaccine to get them vaccinated?

bt25

political analyst wrote: »

When Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to let their children have life-saving blood transfusions, the courts intervene to ensure that the transfusions happen. So why doesn't the government have the law changed to legally oblige all parents of children who are medically fit to have the MMR vaccine to get them vaccinated?

Because in the case of the transfusion, inaction leads to the certain death of the child. In the other, there is no medical emergency and yet you would be forcing a medical procedure with possible risks on a healthy child.

ancapailldorcha

bt25 wrote: »

Because in the case of the transfusion, inaction leads to the certain death of the child. In the other, there is no medical emergency and yet you would be forcing a medical procedure with possible risks on a healthy child.

It is simply absurd to describe a vaccination as a medical procedure.

bt25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It is simply absurd to describe a vaccination as a medical procedure.

https://ibb.co/2v7n31w

you're completely correct, I'll inform them immediately.

ancapailldorcha

bt25 wrote: »

https://ibb.co/2v7n31w

you're completely correct, I'll inform them immediately.

Some woman's opinion. Ok.

Anyway, James O'Brien decided that he wouldn't be giving anti-vaxxers a platform on his show on LBC:

“I will not be taking calls from anybody seeking to defend the anti-vaccination position. Because it is an anti-life position that you’ve adopted.

“You are pro-disease, you are pro-death, you are pro-misery and you are pro-contagion.

“I’m really sorry if those words hurt and I could not be more sympathetic to your pain if your child has been diagnosed with a condition that you can’t understand or accept.

“But I will not be taking calls today because there are not two sides. There’s only one. And that side is science.”

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/04/25/james-obrien-anti-vaxxer-demolished/

bt25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Some woman's opinion. Ok.

Anyway, James O'Brien decided that he wouldn't be giving anti-vaxxers a platform on his show on LBC:



https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/04/25/james-obrien-anti-vaxxer-demolished/

some guy's opinion? ok

(why do I feel so dirty and empty with that response?)

ancapailldorcha

bt25 wrote: »

some guy's opinion? ok

(why do I feel so dirty and empty with that response?)

I would have expected that to be obvious.

You might feel dirty and empty because sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

bt25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Some woman's opinion. Ok.

god, they are all at it with their opinions
https://ibb.co/6BSdpfh

we really need to do something about this!

bt25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have expected that to be obvious.

You might feel dirty and empty because sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

please don't start asking me to point out hypocrisy like that, it's mean

ancapailldorcha

bt25 wrote: »

god, they are all at it with their opinions
https://ibb.co/6BSdpfh

we really need to do something about this!

Another dump. Very nice.

bt25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Another dump. Very nice.

I don't think you know what a dump is... in fact, you seem to call a lot of things a dump that go against your opinion. though this is probably a character dump

bt25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Another dump. Very nice.

https://ibb.co/CzdtVT2

you do seem to enjoy saying it though, it's good to have a hobby. Inconceivable!

Capt'n Midnight

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What concentration is toxicity observed at and how much is used in the vaccine?

All things are poison, and nothing is without poison, the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison.
- Paracelsus

Water makes up two thirds of the human body.
Drinking too much can prove fatal.
As little as two litres an hour for three hours can kill.



Deuterium is toxic. It will kill you.

Admittedly not until you've accumulated enough to replace a third of the atoms in your body with it.




Viruses on the other hand replicate, so an infinitesimal amount could infect millions, and as been shown by the re-growth of measles does. Herd immunity can block the growth. Otherwise...

Dohnjoe

bt25 wrote: »

I don't think you know what a dump is... in fact, you seem to call a lot of things a dump that go against your opinion. though this is probably a character dump

Not sure what point's you are trying to get across in this thread

Do you believe there's a link between vaccines and autism?

And what's your opinion on vaccines in general?

AtomicHorror

bt25 wrote: »

https://ibb.co/CzdtVT2

you do seem to enjoy saying it though, it's good to have a hobby. Inconceivable!

Aren't you seizing on the semantics of ancapailldorcha's first response to ignore the point? That vaccination, whatever you call it, is not comparable to transfusion in terms of invasiveness, risk etc?

You've written 5 or 6 replies now that amount to little more than a side-stepping of that argument.

Amantine

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Viruses on the other hand replicate, so an infinitesimal amount could infect millions, and as been shown by the re-growth of measles does. Herd immunity can block the growth. Otherwise...

From my research measles is mostly dangerous in malnourished populations but I could be wrong. Does anyone have the figures for the actual statistics for casualties for measles in say the UK, Ireland or other European countries? How many deaths are we talking here? I can't find anything. With half a million kids unvaccinated since 2010 in the Uk, and many more in Europe and measles beibg so incredibly contageous we should have a quite a big toll by now, what is it?

Cabaal

Amantine wrote: »

From my research measles is mostly dangerous in malnourished populations but I could be wrong. Does anyone have the figures for the actual statistics for casualties for measles in say the UK, Ireland or other European countries? How many deaths are we talking here? I can't find anything. With half a million kids unvaccinated since 2010 in the Uk, and many more in Europe and measles beibg so incredibly contageous we should have a quite a big toll by now, what is it?

There's a drop bit vaccinated levels still stop a really big mass spread.

Also, they don't die from "measles" . They usually die from complications brought on from it such as pneumonia.

There's no new deaths or injurys from Polio anymore in Ireland , are you suggesting it should be completely ignored?

bt25

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Aren't you seizing on the semantics of ancapailldorcha's first response to ignore the point? That vaccination, whatever you call it, is not comparable to transfusion in terms of invasiveness, risk etc?

You've written 5 or 6 replies now that amount to little more than a side-stepping of that argument.

no, my responses were actually pointing out the hypocrisy and dismissive responses from a moderator (who really should be held to a higher standard). The majority of those responses dismiss without any basis for it other than ones he then goes and criticises other posters he disagrees with for similar reasons. It just gets too frustrating after a while and needed to be highlighted. Honestly, other posters are making their points that are in line with this mod's but at least they are responding in a more constructive way.

bt25

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Not sure what point's you are trying to get across in this thread

Do you believe there's a link between vaccines and autism?

And what's your opinion on vaccines in general?

My points were relating to the poor discussion style of some vocal posters here and the need to focus on constructive discourse instead. Plenty of posters on both sides (including yourself from what I can see) are able to do this, those who can't should stop dominating the board.

To answer your questions, I don't know. I believe when speaking of autism we aren't talking all vaccines so would be best to not lump all into one question. I would need to review all the data though my understanding currently is the cause of autism is still an unknown so it would seem too soon to say something does or doesn't have risks to do so. I understand those who support and trust the particular vaccine that another person doesn't require a high level of certainty in the testing to be swayed.

I've been trying to find out more about the safety of each vaccine but I am concerned by the difficulty I'm having finding the research that shows their safety as the majority of what is out there seems to again lump them all into one pile, points to them and says "you're mental if you don't" which doesn't seem to be of a high scientific standard though I'm open to finding the data and will hold my judgement until I do. I can understand the concern of parents then when the only response that seems to be out there to "I'm concerned about vaccine X, is it safe to inject into my small child" is "are you nuts? do you not realise that vaccines (all?) are completely safe" which is never a way to convince anyone of anything.

So my opinion on vaccines is that both sides seem to be very emotional on the subject. Personally I have no problem doing it when I'm given proof from a well done large scale trial that shows that each one and all of them combined is safe (within reason and so long as I know the risks involved so I can decide if I'm willing to take them on for my child who will actually be taking on those risks) with a child of that size/age and taking into account if they have any other risk enhancers. To lump them all into one pile of "good" or "bad" would seem foolish in many ways but that seems to be the way it is handled currently when discussing.

Amantine

Cabaal wrote: »

There's no new deaths or injurys from Polio anymore in Ireland , are you suggesting it should be completely ignored?

Absolutely not, I am asking a question about measles.

There seems to be a lot of black and white thinking on this thread.
Also the use of the term "anti-vaxxers" which only encourages the apartheid.
After searching the Recovering Kids | Biomedical Healing facebook group it's clear that most parents used to vaccinate. Some of them still would vaccinate minimally. Some of them say they would never vaccinate again following the disastrous effect of vaccine on their child. It's important to remember that these families have genetics (like mitochondrial defect for example) and other causes that predispose them to vaccine injury and that this has never been studied.
We need to move away from the black and white, all or nothing, us vs them way of thinking which distracts from intelligent science based discourse.

Dohnjoe

bt25 wrote: »

My points were relating to the poor discussion style of some vocal posters here and the need to focus on constructive discourse instead. Plenty of posters on both sides (including yourself from what I can see) are able to do this, those who can't should stop dominating the board.

Thanks for the response

Paste-dumping links, 90 minute youtube videos, whataboutery, logical fallacies, deflection, evasion, bad science are components of poor discussion

To answer your questions, I don't know.

Fair enough. There's no proven link between vaccines and autism. There isn't much doubt about this in the scientific and medical community.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of information on the internet, some people can't differentiate the bad info from the good. And then, as we all know, there are those that don't want to

I've been trying to find out more about the safety of each vaccine but I am concerned by the difficulty I'm having finding the research that shows their safety as the majority of what is out there seems to again lump them all into one pile, points to them and says "you're mental if you don't"

Personally I haven't found this to be the case. There's always a risk, to virtually anything, but in relation to vaccines the benefits vastly outweigh the risks.

So my opinion on vaccines is that both sides seem to be very emotional on the subject.

Evidence supports the facts, not tribalism

tony1980

bt25 wrote: »

My points were relating to the poor discussion style of some vocal posters here and the need to focus on constructive discourse instead. Plenty of posters on both sides (including yourself from what I can see) are able to do this, those who can't should stop dominating the board.

To answer your questions, I don't know. I believe when speaking of autism we aren't talking all vaccines so would be best to not lump all into one question. I would need to review all the data though my understanding currently is the cause of autism is still an unknown so it would seem too soon to say something does or doesn't have risks to do so. I understand those who support and trust the particular vaccine that another person doesn't require a high level of certainty in the testing to be swayed.

I've been trying to find out more about the safety of each vaccine but I am concerned by the difficulty I'm having finding the research that shows their safety as the majority of what is out there seems to again lump them all into one pile, points to them and says "you're mental if you don't" which doesn't seem to be of a high scientific standard though I'm open to finding the data and will hold my judgement until I do. I can understand the concern of parents then when the only response that seems to be out there to "I'm concerned about vaccine X, is it safe to inject into my small child" is "are you nuts? do you not realise that vaccines (all?) are completely safe" which is never a way to convince anyone of anything.

So my opinion on vaccines is that both sides seem to be very emotional on the subject. Personally I have no problem doing it when I'm given proof from a well done large scale trial that shows that each one and all of them combined is safe (within reason and so long as I know the risks involved so I can decide if I'm willing to take them on for my child who will actually be taking on those risks) with a child of that size/age and taking into account if they have any other risk enhancers. To lump them all into one pile of "good" or "bad" would seem foolish in many ways but that seems to be the way it is handled currently when discussing.

Only just came across this thread and I’m delighted to see an excellent post like this!

My understanding is there has been no proof in what causes Autism. My Wife believes what changed my daughter when she was 18 months old, was a Vaccine.
This is years ago now.

We have videos the week she received it of her laughing and playing and with plenty of words and when she came home from the injection she was very sick afterwards and we never had the same child again.

No words anymore, silence and staring off into space in her own little world, affection disappeared too and no more smiling but we are mental to think it had no affect on her whatsoever!

My wife believes that some children are affected differently by them and are just more susceptible to issues been caused by the vaccines than other kids.
She still isn’t anti vaccine by the way, but questions some of the ingredients been used in them and believes a better system for the way the scheduling is administered could definitely benefit kids.
Anyone she speaks to calls her nuts of course and no constructive argument is given, she is just nuts and they laugh at her!

I do not know as much as herself to go into as much detail constructively but I will say, she is highly qualified in Science and Engineering and is an extremely intelligent person who is part of no Facebook groups and is not influenced by anyone in those kinds of groups, so she’s no fool!
It’s a very frustrating thing as a parent to go through what we have with our daughter and just get laughed at for questioning anything!

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

We need to move away from the black and white, all or nothing, us vs them way of thinking which distracts from intelligent science based discourse.

Right but it's people who refuse to even consider the evidence that are undermining intelligent science based discourse.

You say that parents are refusing to vaccinate due to vaccine injury yet there doesn't seem to be any evidence for this. If vaccine injury were prevalent, the health regulators and authorities would have stepped in a long time ago. We need to make decisions based on empirical evidence, ie data and not on feelings and Facebook groups.

Autism is highly complex and people who have it don't deserve to be dehumanised by people who just want an excuse either not to vaccinate or to feel special.

tony1980

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Personally I haven't found this to be the case. There's always a risk, to virtually anything, but in relation to vaccines the benefits vastly outweigh the risks.



Evidence supports the facts, not tribalism

Unfortunately they didn’t in our case, one day we had our daughter and the next, well, it’s something you can only experience first hand in what you lose!
When other little girls are around our house with people visiting now, around my daughters age, i end up in tears later that day because of the difference I see between them and things I never got to experience with her as she grew up, nor will ever experience with her!

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Right but it's people who refuse to even consider the evidence that are undermining intelligent science based discourse.

You say that parents are refusing to vaccinate due to vaccine injury yet there doesn't seem to be any evidence for this. If vaccine injury were prevalent, the health regulators and authorities would have stepped in a long time ago. We need to make decisions based on empirical evidence, ie data and not on feelings and Facebook groups.

Autism is highly complex and people who have it don't deserve to be dehumanised by people who just want an excuse either not to vaccinate or to feel special.

There is no question that vaccine injury exists. We don't know how prevalent it is as there have been no studies on vaccine injury - unless you can you post some here?
Autism IS very complex. You are dehumanising victims of vaccine injury when you state that they don't vaccinate without reason just to feel special.

Ancapailldorcha dismissing ANY POST that doesn't agree with your view with a one liner makes for a very one side conversation. This is exactly the limited black and white thinking I posted about in my previous post. What is there to gain from this divide? How can either side learn from the other? Please answer my question below

My question was:
From my research measles is mostly dangerous in malnourished populations but I could be wrong. Does anyone have the figures for the actual statistics for casualties for measles in say the UK, Ireland or other European countries? How many deaths are we talking here? I can't find anything. With half a million kids unvaccinated since 2010 in the Uk, and many more in Europe and measles being so incredibly contagious we should have a quite a big toll by now, what is it?