Our economy being too centered around Dublin.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-04-2019 08:44AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're saying one thing, and then another entirely. Neither heads or tails. I'll leave you to your ramblings.

He’s not. Dublin over crowding comes from it being 40% of the population.

Visiting relatives down the country in Tipp this weekend I saw that a local convenience shop has closed down after 80 or so years. Doesn’t bode well in the middle of a boom. The next bust could take out the country outside Dublin while leaving Dublin ok, or a few years from recovery.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 08:48AM

Companies want to set up where the skilled labour force is.

If you are based in Dublin city centre, the number of people within an hour's commute - your pool of potential employees - is enormous.

And because that's where most of the tech/finance/legal jobs are, that's where the workers are.

If you set up in Galway you're going to have trouble attracting the same number and quality of candidate.

Dr. Bre · 23-04-2019 08:50AM

punisher5112 wrote: »

Boom boom boom.... I want you in my room...

The venga boys in blue ?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-04-2019 08:50AM

RayCun wrote: »

Companies want to set up where the skilled labour force is.

If you are based in Dublin city centre, the number of people within an hour's commute - your pool of potential employees - is enormous.

And because that's where most of the tech/finance/legal jobs are, that's where the workers are.

If you set up in Galway you're going to have trouble attracting the same number and quality of candidate.

A lot of the skilled workforce come from abroad and it works for Apple in Cork. Not fully buying that, although it may be true for some industries.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 08:52AM

RayCun wrote: »

Companies want to set up where the skilled labour force is.

If you are based in Dublin city centre, the number of people within an hour's commute - your pool of potential employees - is enormous.

And because that's where most of the tech/finance/legal jobs are, that's where the workers are.

If you set up in Galway you're going to have trouble attracting the same number and quality of candidate.

Maybe, at this point, but we have allowed this to narrative to grow to the point now where it is hard to deny it.

But, why couldn't people from Portlaoise or Mullingar be travelling 90 minutes to the West to work in the morning instead of 90 minutes to the east as they are doing now?

RayCun · 23-04-2019 08:54AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

A lot of the skilled workforce come from abroad and it works for Apple in Cork. Not fully buying that, although it may be true for some industries.

Most of that skilled workforce would rather live in Dublin than in Cork, in the same way that people moving to England would rather go to London than Birmingham.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 23-04-2019 08:55AM

poisonated wrote: »

Oh great. Another anti Dublin thread.

Quick there’s a traveller thread further down the page that you can post your brilliantly insightful and intelligent yet witty reply in. :rollseyes:

RayCun · 23-04-2019 08:56AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe, at this point, but we have allowed this to narrative to grow to the point now where it is hard to deny it.

But, why couldn't people from Portlaoise or Mullingar be travelling 90 minutes to the West to work in the morning instead of 90 minutes to the east as they are doing now?

The number of people equidistant from both is tiny.

The number of people within 80 minutes of Dublin is much larger than the number 80 minutes from Galway, and the number within 60 minutes of Dublin is much larger than the number 60 minutes from Galway.

(plus those going to Dublin are much more capable of using public transport.)

Mad_maxx · 23-04-2019 08:58AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Because the rural TD's would like to see more people in the rural community.
Invest the money in something which will allow people to stay in rural communities and you get two things.

More people contributing to local rural economies,
Less demand on services and housing in Dublin.

Not sure about that, rural people like anyone spending money but have little time for permanent blow ins.

Sure they might not know who your grandfather hurled for

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 08:59AM

RayCun wrote: »

Most of that skilled workforce would rather live in Dublin than in Cork, in the same way that people moving to England would rather go to London than Birmingham.

Would they though?
More traffic issues?
More expensive housing?

This is what could be changed, the narrative that Dublin is the preferable (only) place to live. The national strategy should be promoting other areas both verbally and in the development of local resources to entice people to build communities.

PMBC · 23-04-2019 09:03AM

RayCun wrote: »

The number of people equidistant from both is tiny.

The number of people within 80 minutes of Dublin is much larger than the number 80 minutes from Galway, and the number within 60 minutes of Dublin is much larger than the number 60 minutes from Galway.

(plus those going to Dublin are much more capable of using public transport.)

But thats because the growth is, and always has been concentrated in Dublin.

Del2005 · 23-04-2019 09:03AM

Look at the USA where all the tech companies are setting up in California and ignoring the rust belt. Companies are choosing between Dublin, London, Paris, San Francisco etc not Muff or Dingle.

In every other country in the world they are urbanising and in the bigger scheme Dublin is still too small and needs more people and companies so that Ireland can compete with other countries. But no people think that we should be distributing industry around the country, which we did years ago with massive IDA grants and nearly every company left, when we should be pushing for more industry in Dublin. The problem with Dublin is combeen politicians who would rather waste hundreds of millions on a useless train line linking 2 cities that is slower than the new motorway than invest in proper public transport for Dublin. If we had Dart underground, planed for at least 30 years, and metro, 20 odd years of planning, then Dublin would have a working public transport system, but no we have trains that are only used by the free travel pass holders and everyone else driving.

lawred2 · 23-04-2019 09:05AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Because the rural TD's would like to see more people in the rural community.
Invest the money in something which will allow people to stay in rural communities and you get two things.

More people contributing to local rural economies,
Less demand on services and housing in Dublin.

Invest in what?

RayCun · 23-04-2019 09:05AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Would they though?
More traffic issues?
More expensive housing?

Yeah, both true of Manchester and Birmingham compared to London, but still people prefer to go to London.

After a while living in a country, and visiting different places, some might decide they'd rather live in a different city. But not at first.

Tell me how wrote: »

This is what could be changed, the narrative that Dublin is the preferable (only) place to live. The national strategy should be promoting other areas both verbally and in the development of local resources to entice people to build communities.

But the structural issues remain. Dublin has the population density to make it attractive. You can tell people how lovely Athenry is until your face turns blue - people will go where the jobs are, and the jobs will go where the people are.

PMBC · 23-04-2019 09:06AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Would they though?
More traffic issues?
More expensive housing?

This is what could be changed, the narrative that Dublin is the preferable (only) place to live. The national strategy should be promoting other areas both verbally and in the development of local resources to entice people to build communities.

That was the National Spatial Strategy. Until Parlon and McCreevy got in on the act. And now one of them is spokesman for (part of) the Construction industry i.e. the CIF

Pawwed Rig · 23-04-2019 09:06AM

A Midlands city was once touted to incorporate Mullingar, Tullamore and Athlone. I haven't heard it mentioned since the crash but would seem like a good idea. Benefits would be a huge amount of space meaning cheap housing etc. Also since the sea is not an issue there would be more scope for circular development.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 09:12AM

Del2005 wrote: »

Look at the USA where all the tech companies are setting up in California and ignoring the rust belt.

If you look at the companies that created the rust belt (or industrialization in the north of England), it was factories that took in unskilled labour and trained them on the job.

Ireland isn't well-positioned to attract factories. We don't have lots of raw materials and we aren't a large market, so everything would have to be shipped in and shipped out again. Easier to attract knowledge companies, but they want skilled workers, which means they aren't going to set up in Portlaoise.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 09:16AM

Del2005 wrote: »

Look at the USA where all the tech companies are setting up in California and ignoring the rust belt. Companies are choosing between Dublin, London, Paris, San Francisco etc not Muff or Dingle.

In every other country in the world they are urbanising and in the bigger scheme Dublin is still too small and needs more people and companies so that Ireland can compete with other countries. But no people think that we should be distributing industry around the country, which we did years ago with massive IDA grants and nearly every company left, when we should be pushing for more industry in Dublin. The problem with Dublin is combeen politicians who would rather waste hundreds of millions on a useless train line linking 2 cities that is slower than the new motorway than invest in proper public transport for Dublin. If we had Dart underground, planed for at least 30 years, and metro, 20 odd years of planning, then Dublin would have a working public transport system, but no we have trains that are only used by the free travel pass holders and everyone else driving.

We need to get over ourselves if we think that Dublin is ever going to be on a par with the worlds biggest cities. We can 'say' it is (as we have been doing) but that doesn't make it so.

None of those countries have such a proportion of their countries population living within such a small proportion of their countries area.

We are talking about how Limerick, Cork and Galway should at this point have 500K more working in their confines at this point and Dublin 500K less.

And yes, there would be housing and traffic concerns if this was to happen overnight but it should have been targeted over the last 20 years with infrastructure to facilitate it.

Dublin has the DART, two LUAS lines, the most extensive public bus network in the country.
No other city has in any way capable public transport and we are talking about metro for Dublin and nothing for the rest.

(Also, the word is gombeen, not combeen, they are in Dublin as well, see Shane Ross hockey grants and Garda station interests for reference)

PMBC · 23-04-2019 09:17AM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

A Midlands city was once touted to incorporate Mullingar, Tullamore and Athlone. I haven't heard it mentioned since the crash but would seem like a good idea. Benefits would be a huge amount of space meaning cheap housing etc. Also since the sea is not an issue there would be more scope for circular development.

Yes, that was the 'polycentric model' with Athlone as the main centre. I live in nad intend to stay in Dublin as Im fairly well insulated from the traffic and other problems but I think there is considerable merit in this idea. I cant see politicians accepting it, though. Imagine Cork and Galway anger not to mention Limerick and Waterford. Then there is Sligo and .....Recently a former high level civil servant has been promoting Limerick as THE alternative and there is a lot of merit in that. Wherever it is to be would need a high speed rail link to Dublin.

Wanderer78 · 23-04-2019 09:17AM

Its just the market equalising, relax, everything is fine

RayCun · 23-04-2019 09:18AM

Tell me how wrote: »

We need to get over ourselves if we think that Dublin is ever going to be on a par with the worlds biggest cities.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is.

But if Dublin is a 'level 2' city, Cork, Galway etc are 'level 3'.

(or Dublin is 'level 3' and the others are 'level 4', if you prefer)

Rhys Essien · 23-04-2019 09:19AM

Del2005 wrote: »

Look at the USA where all the tech companies are setting up in California and ignoring the rust belt. Companies are choosing between Dublin, London, Paris, San Francisco etc not Muff or Dingle.

In every other country in the world they are urbanising and in the bigger scheme Dublin is still too small and needs more people and companies so that Ireland can compete with other countries. But no people think that we should be distributing industry around the country, which we did years ago with massive IDA grants and nearly every company left, when we should be pushing for more industry in Dublin. The problem with Dublin is combeen politicians who would rather waste hundreds of millions on a useless train line linking 2 cities that is slower than the new motorway than invest in proper public transport for Dublin. If we had Dart underground, planed for at least 30 years, and metro, 20 odd years of planning, then Dublin would have a working public transport system, but no we have trains that are only used by the free travel pass holders and everyone else driving.

I seriously hope you're taking the piss. We are at a stage now where we've created a monster and you want the monster to grow bigger.

Pawwed Rig · 23-04-2019 09:22AM

PMBC wrote: »

Yes, that was the 'polycentric model' with Athlone as the main centre. I live in nad intend to stay in Dublin as Im fairly well insulated from the traffic and other problems but I think there is considerable merit in this idea. I cant see politicians accepting it, though. Imagine Cork and Galway anger not to mention Limerick and Waterford. Then there is Sligo and .....Recently a former high level civil servant has been promoting Limerick as THE alternative and there is a lot of merit in that. Wherever it is to be would need a high speed rail link to Dublin.

With a high speed rail link you could do Connolly to Athlone in 30mins or less. You could also do Galway to Athlone in the same time and not much more for Limerick. I would prefer a green field main centre between the 3 towns as otherwise you will be bogged down in negotiations and objections for decades.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 09:25AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Invest in what?

How about subsidising flights in to Shannon and Cork to create greater access or rebranding them/marketing them differently rather than spending 900M on a second runway in Dublin (a moot point now as they are separate entities).

How about tax breaks for companies to locate in a particular region.

How about locating national facilities, whether medical, or administration, or research in places other than Dublin.

How about investing in non-active public transport infrastructure (cycling lanes/bus lanes) to increase attractiveness of such modes of transport in large cities.

How about creating cultural grants for venues to entice more people to either visit the region or to stay there instead of having to travel there.

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy, sure fire or cheap but that it should be considered for areas other than just Dublin as currently seems to be dis proportionally the case.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 09:27AM

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is.

But if Dublin is a 'level 2' city, Cork, Galway etc are 'level 3'.

(or Dublin is 'level 3' and the others are 'level 4', if you prefer)

Del2005 was implying it.

I agree, there is no question that whatever level Dublin is at, the others are below this, but, the focus should be on closing this gap, not widening it.

Cina · 23-04-2019 09:27AM

Tell me how wrote: »

How about subsidising flights in to Shannon and Cork to create greater access or rebranding them/marketing them differently rather than spending 900M on a second runway in Dublin (a moot point now as they are separate entities).

How about tax breaks for companies to locate in a particular region.

How about locating national facilities, whether medical, or administration, or research in places other than Dublin.

How about investing in non-active public transport infrastructure (cycling lanes/bus lanes) to increase attractiveness of such modes of transport in large cities.

How about creating cultural grants for venues to entice more people to either visit the region or to stay there instead of having to travel there.

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy, sure fire or cheap but that it should be considered for areas other than just Dublin as currently seems to be dis proportionally the case.

The runway is €320m.

And what can they do? Stop expanding the airport even though it's at full capacity? Seems illogical to me.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 09:31AM

Cina wrote: »

The runway is €320m.

And what can they do? Stop expanding the airport even though it's at full capacity? Seems illogical to me.

Apologies if I was wrong on the 900M I heard someone from DAA talking on Newstalk about it two weeks ago and am pretty sure she said they were making the 900M investment to drive economic activity for the country.

It's capacity would be fine, if Cork and Shannon were utilised to the extent which their facilities could currently handle.

If Dublin is at 100% and Shannon at, say 50% and Cork 60% (I'm not sure on specifics) why is the best course of action to expand Dublins capacity, and then continue to have people driving from Clare, Galway, Limerick, Cork etc to Dublin because that is the only place from which to get a suitable flight?

rgodard80a · 23-04-2019 09:36AM

Rhys Essien wrote: »

I seriously hope you're taking the piss. We are at a stage now where we've created a monster and you want the monster to grow bigger.

Monster?
It is a victim of it's own success and has growing pains in housing and transport.

But the huge numbers of I.T. and financial companies setting up here need access to skilled/experienced workers so they will all cluster around existing hubs.

There are an increasing number of companies setting up beyond the M50 but if they don't pay "Dublin wages" people will still commute past them to the centre.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 09:37AM

Tell me how wrote: »

How about tax breaks for companies to locate in a particular region.

The IDA does offer support to companies to locate outside Dublin

Tell me how wrote: »

How about locating national facilities, whether medical, or administration, or research in places other than Dublin.

Decentralisation again?
It would hit the same problem as the last time. Ask Dublin-based civil servants if they'd like to work in Cork instead and maybe 15% would say yes. But that's 15% across all departments. There mightn't be any working units where most people would like to move to Cork.
And there is the problem of access. Sure, moving the national children's hospital to Cork sounds great - if you live in Cork. But for most of the population, Cork is harder to get to than Dublin.

Tell me how wrote: »

How about creating cultural grants for venues to entice more people to either visit the region or to stay there instead of having to travel there.

They exist. Do you think the Wexford Opera festival is self-funding?

Idbatterim · 23-04-2019 09:39AM

Local and national politicians have done their utmost to stymy Dublin’s growth and failed. The world is urbanising. Dublin isn’t competitimg with other Irish towns for investment, Dublin gets it or ireland doesn’t ! Nobody is saying we are a London or New York either FFS! But we could be doing even better with a decent transport network and more housing. The government might decry the lack of money available, but it’s only down to their own moronic decisions!

Our economy being too centered around Dublin.

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