Why is there no "real position" for Dublin Bus?

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 18-10-2017 9:48pm #1

After all of the money that was spent rolling out the "real time" displays, you'd think they could implement something a bit better. The "real time" seems to be nothing more than a glorified electronic countdown timer, counting down to the time the bus is actually due according to the timetable.

Why can't we introduce a timetable at each bus stop detailing the time that the bus is due to arrive at that specific stop with the real time displays instead being used for "real distance".

The number going up and down like a whore's knickers, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 1 minute, 7 minutes, 1 minute ....due .. due .. due ..1 minute ... due ... then it arrives.

Would it not be better to have a display that says bus is 1500 meters away, 500 meters, 100 meters .... 50, 20, 10 etc?

ED E · 18-10-2017 10:06pm

Cynic Mode:

Dublin Bus control have it. The public don't. This is to mask the crappy performance levels.

coylemj · 19-10-2017 1:01am

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

The "real time" seems to be nothing more than a glorified electronic countdown timer, counting down to the time the bus is actually due according to the timetable.

The number going up and down like a whore's knickers, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 1 minute, 7 minutes, 1 minute ....due .. due .. due ..1 minute ... due ... then it arrives.

Can you make even some token effort to be consistent? Both of those statements are totally contradictory.

If the display simply shows the time counting down to the scheduled time then it will behave like a countdown timer on your mobile phone or a kitchen timer. Then you say it goes up and down a like a ....

jimmycrackcorm · 21-10-2017 1:36am

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote:

Would it not be better to have a display that says bus is 1500 meters away, 500 meters, 100 meters .... 50, 20, 10 etc?

If you can't see the bus then a meter reading is of no use to. All you'll try to do then is figure how how much time is left before the bus gets to the stop.

magicbastarder · 21-10-2017 9:28am

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Would it not be better to have a display that says bus is 1500 meters away, 500 meters, 100 meters .... 50, 20, 10 etc?

because that information is less useful? people don't care how far the bus is away in distance, they care how far away it is in time. and i suspect that whatever you think of their modelling of how fast a bus might be going is, it's going to be more acccurate and more meaningful to most passengers.

Dyr · 21-10-2017 9:32am

The information is not accurate

server down · 21-10-2017 9:36am

If the progress is changing then it is not just a timer. I agree that time is better than distance.

magicbastarder · 21-10-2017 9:50am

Bambi wrote: »

The information is not accurate

90% of the time, it is, in my experience.

ArmaniJeanss · 21-10-2017 12:07pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

because that information is less useful? people don't care how far the bus is away in distance, they care how far away it is in time. and i suspect that whatever you think of their modelling of how fast a bus might be going is, it's going to be more acccurate and more meaningful to most passengers.

There are certain circumstances in which I'd much prefer to know the actual distance rather than their estimated time - I don't see any downside in providing both (distance could surely be an option on the app)

devnull · 21-10-2017 12:24pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

There are certain circumstances in which I'd much prefer to know the actual distance rather than their estimated time - I don't see any downside in providing both (distance could surely be an option on the app)

The obvious drawback is that distance as the crow flies can be completely different from distance that the bus will have to travel so if you are using the former which would be the easiest to calculate, distances will go up and down.

ArmaniJeanss · 21-10-2017 12:33pm

devnull wrote: »

The obvious drawback is that distance as the crow flies can be completely different from distance that the bus will have to travel so if you are using the former which would be the easiest to calculate, distances will go up and down.

Doesn't the time system already cater for that - it knows that if the bus is at X that it'll be ETA 10 minutes to Y even though Y might be 1 minute/200 metres from X as the crow flies (the bus having to go in an out of an estate before getting to Y would explain the time gap).
So by the same logic it would know to tell us 1300 metres or whatever?

Dyr · 21-10-2017 12:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

90% of the time, it is, in my experience.

Today, a Saturday afternoon. Rtpi shows the bus as 5 minutes away. Over the next 15 minutes it goes to 4 to 2 to due to off rtpi for that stop, then shows up as 2 minutes away again.

That is not unusual

It's not real time and it's not reliable, a wasted opportunity

punisher5112 · 21-10-2017 12:39pm

Traffic,issues on route, many questions, many not having coins out or none at all, same goes for rooting around in bags for card, then not topped up, crashes, disputes many many many things change time.

coylemj · 21-10-2017 4:23pm

If the bus has left the terminus and is actually moving then the timing is reasonably accurate. But there is a big problem with phantom buses where the display shows the time remaining to it's scheduled arrival at your stop, even though it's not actually running. The system assumes that the bus is running but the tracker (GPS) equipment is faulty so unless it's manually pulled from the system, RTPI is programmed to assume that the bus is running.

dfx- · 21-10-2017 7:41pm

the rtpi is an indicator for me. It's based on past journeys and the time it *should* take to cover the distance. It doesn't predict for obstacles in the way that weren't there last time so can change.

Whether it's four five minutes away is not as important as telling me no services are available or the next bus on a corridor of four routes is 20 minutes away.

bk · 21-10-2017 8:03pm

I find RTPI to be pretty accurate 95%+ of the time.

Unfortunately it is that 5% of the time it doesn't work that lets it down badly and makes the whole thing look worse then it actually is.

It is that ghost bus you have been patiently waiting for, counting down the arrival, comes to "due" and then disappears off the screen, never coming, infuriating.

Or it doesn't turn up, nothing listed for another 30 minutes, you walk away, 2 minutes later the bus flies past you further down the street!

If a bus hasn't actually left, then really it shouldn't appear on the screen at all, this part is inexcusable IMO.

If a bus is suddenly pulled off a route by the controller, then it should be immediately marked as such on all the RTPI screens on the route, with something like "Sorry, bus removed from service".

I think these simple changes would make it less infuriating for the users.

punisher5112 · 21-10-2017 9:39pm

Yes the screens should show more info.

Could easily keep number and put message beside or rolling on the line its on.

Easily done and controller could well only have to select bus that's missing and click attach message but a yes or no and away the message goes without any need to write it up each time.

Zebra3 · 21-10-2017 9:56pm

Bambi wrote: »

Today, a Saturday afternoon. Rtpi shows the bus as 5 minutes away. Over the next 15 minutes it goes to 4 to 2 to due to off rtpi for that stop, then shows up as 2 minutes away again. That is not unusual

It's not real time and it's not reliable, a wasted opportunity

Very regular occurrence.

wordofwarning · 22-10-2017 11:53am

bk wrote: »

If a bus is suddenly pulled off a route by the controller, then it should be immediately marked as such on all the RTPI screens on the route, with something like "Sorry, bus removed from service".

I think these simple changes would make it less infuriating for the users.

I agree with this. I think if the 7.45am bus was cancelled, it should state on the board that the 7.45am bus was cancelled. It is unacceptable that Dublin Bus does not openly communicate with the public when it is pulling buses.

A few weeks ago I was late for work, as one of the buses was cancelled. I emailed Dublin Bus to ask what had happened. I was informed the first bus was curtailed and was late, another bus was late leaving the depot etc. All were due to staff issues

I can't imagine it sitting well with the driver, that the public constantly knowing buses were cancelled / late due to the staff issues. I could imagine the most passive person getting pissed off with drivers constantly being late leaving depots

ED E · 22-10-2017 8:53pm

Friend was waiting just north of an hour for 30m interval service yesterday. No traffic/breakdown issues reported.

Meanwhile the RTPI told him thrice the bus was 15m away when no such service was running.

Do the NTA ever do real world inspections of DB service reliability?

smackyB · 23-10-2017 10:08am

Have enquired about positions being made available before - supposedly not technically feasible: https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/839791585885827072

ED E · 23-10-2017 4:51pm

Theres zero technical reason as the control centre already has the data. Its just a case of setting it up.

smackyB · 23-10-2017 9:13pm

ED E wrote: »

Theres zero technical reason as the control centre already has the data. Its just a case of setting it up.

Any idea who I could pester to make this happen then? Would be keen to see this data made available!

Phibsboro · 23-10-2017 11:19pm

I wish someone from Dublin Bus would come on and explain exactly how the system works. What exactly is happening when you get a ghost bus? How could that be, technically?

For example, for me RTI is 98% correct and has transformed my use of public transport. But I am very close to town and nowhere near a terminus. I wonder if a lot of the people who have regular issues are near termini and are seeing timetabled times for buses before they actually leave - presumably that is how the first few stops on a route get their RTI beyond the few minutes the bus is actually on the road to them.

hmmm · 23-10-2017 11:21pm

smackyB wrote: »

Any idea who I could pester to make this happen then? Would be keen to see this data made available!

Looks like a start
https://data.gov.ie/dataset/real-time-passenger-information-rtpi-for-dublin-bus-bus-eireann-luas-and-irish-rail

smackyB · 23-10-2017 11:55pm

hmmm wrote: »

Looks like a start
https://data.gov.ie/dataset/real-time-passenger-information-rtpi-for-dublin-bus-bus-eireann-luas-and-irish-rail

Unfortunately none of those APIs expose the raw bus positions, they only provide timing data

ED E · 24-10-2017 12:04am

Phibsboro wrote: »

I wish someone from Dublin Bus would come on and explain exactly how the system works. What exactly is happening when you get a ghost bus? How could that be, technically?

For example, for me RTI is 98% correct and has transformed my use of public transport. But I am very close to town and nowhere near a terminus. I wonder if a lot of the people who have regular issues are near termini and are seeing timetabled times for buses before they actually leave - presumably that is how the first few stops on a route get their RTI beyond the few minutes the bus is actually on the road to them.

Yeah, my big issue is the termini.

I'm 10-15m from the point of entry(3 routes) so RTPI shows services that should run and then they disappear when the server notices its a few minutes past schedule and the driver hasn't checked in (probably called in sick 2hrs earlier).

If you're 30 mins from the start of the service then these ghost busses will never show and will only be inferred as missing if you watch the timing between services.

24-10-2017 3:11am

Request the dataset through data.gov.ie

There's an option to "suggest a dataset"

The team behind it are quite pro-active in following up with dataset owners.

Failing that, FOI the internal policy that prevents them from opening it up.

Lastly, use AIE request to allow for accurate calculation and estimations of emissions data on bus routes.

That last one, EU legislation makes it difficult to refuse.

Pretty much all of the above is free of charge to a point so the only thing you need to do is spend some time

flaneur · 24-10-2017 8:31am

It seems to happen in Brussels too. I would assume they’re a mixture of busses with and without satellite tracking?

Sometimes in Brussels it displays “temps théorique" and you’ll get the odd ghost in the machine where a theoretical bus pulls up and departs...

There are few things more annoying than standing in the rain and discovering that your bus is merely a philosophical construct.

Danjamin1 · 24-10-2017 9:40am

The whole setup is a joke, there's nothing even remotely real time about that system. There's a bus stop outside my estate, it's the second stop on the route. I've regularly been waiting at that stop & seen the bus going the opposite way up the road completing the outbound route. You would expect that this same bus is turning back after the final drop off & going back on the inbound route but it regularly takes ages for a bus to actually arrive back at the stop on route. The phone RTPI system is also a joke, there's next to no accuracy. And there's no point letting them know this on Twitter as your likely to just get blocked.

Outkast_IRE · 24-10-2017 9:45am

I dont believe Dublin bus on this one. The Bus Eireann buses around cork city can have their positions checked online, i used to do this alot last year when i was commuting on the bus, it would show its location on the street on a map.

coylemj · 25-10-2017 12:20am

ED E wrote: »

I'm 10-15m from the point of entry(3 routes) so RTPI shows services that should run and then they disappear when the server notices its a few minutes past schedule and the driver hasn't checked in (probably called in sick 2hrs earlier).

The alternative is that the system shows no bus at all until it departs the terminus.

And they don't automatically disappear from RTPI just because the bus is not running.....

I was in Deansgrange once, waiting for an 84 which was scheduled to depart from Newcastle (Co. Wicklow) at 17:10. RTPI claimed that it would arrive at the stop at Grange Motors at 18:30 heading to Blackrock and I was at the stop at about 18:20. The time kept stepping down until with 2 minutes to go, it disappeared and the bus never turned up. For well over an hour it was on the system as a phantom bus.

smackyB · 25-10-2017 2:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

Request the dataset through data.gov.ie

There's an option to "suggest a dataset"

The team behind it are quite pro-active in following up with dataset owners.

Failing that, FOI the internal policy that prevents them from opening it up.

Lastly, use AIE request to allow for accurate calculation and estimations of emissions data on bus routes.

That last one, EU legislation makes it difficult to refuse.

Pretty much all of the above is free of charge to a point so the only thing you need to do is spend some time

Ok suggestion made, give it a like and maybe it will get some traction but I won't be holding my breath.

smackyB · 25-10-2017 9:03pm

Very quick reply from them, fair play:

"The National Transport Authority (NTA) don’t have a feed for bus positions at the moment but currently have a tender out which includes this requirement. They estimate that are about 9-12 months away from being in a position to publish Dublin Bus real-time vehicle positions. When they do publish it, it will include Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Go-Ahead routes initially"

defrule · 25-10-2017 9:12pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I dont believe Dublin bus on this one. The Bus Eireann buses around cork city can have their positions checked online, i used to do this alot last year when i was commuting on the bus, it would show its location on the street on a map.

May I ask how you can track BE buses online via website? I can only seem to find the realtime info but not map location of buses.

bebeman · 29-10-2017 12:07am

I imagine it will be classed as commercially sensitive information and it will not be made public.

RobbingBandit · 29-10-2017 12:18am

Should be easy enough to set up a real time gps tracking app.

Dublin bus is like the cologne in Anchor Man works 100% of the time 60% of the time.

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 29-10-2017 12:19am

HailO manage a similarly strategy. Why can’t DB?

suicide_circus · 29-10-2017 10:43am

The ghost buses are bad and the "3 min" staying on the board for 10 minutes and then turning into "4 min" are nearly worse.

Muahahaha · 30-10-2017 2:02am

smackyB wrote: »

Very quick reply from them, fair play:

"The National Transport Authority (NTA) don’t have a feed for bus positions at the moment but currently have a tender out which includes this requirement. They estimate that are about 9-12 months away from being in a position to publish Dublin Bus real-time vehicle positions. When they do publish it, it will include Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Go-Ahead routes initially"

Great to hear it is on the way. As others have said I find that RTP1 work 90-95% of the time. But when it does not work it is infuriating. If the taxi apps can show you where exactly a taxi is on a map then there is no reason why Dublin Bus cannot do the same.

prinzeugen · 30-10-2017 2:24am

London had realtime location stuff in 1975..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AFAy1ROfEw (long into, part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6Txpa-Eq8 (part 2)

They knew were every bus was and turned around some services to suit.

Dublin Bus make the Luxton & District look like a serious outfit sometimes.

punisher5112 · 30-10-2017 11:21am

prinzeugen wrote: »

London had realtime location stuff in 1975..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AFAy1ROfEw (long into, part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6Txpa-Eq8 (part 2)

They knew were every bus was and turned around some services to suit.

Dublin Bus make the Luxton & District look like a serious outfit sometimes.

Db had it in 80s

Dyr · 30-10-2017 1:32pm

There was a website some lad set up with a map that tracked all Dublin buses based on RTPI, it was actually more useful than RTPI

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 10-11-2017 5:59pm

If a gps, tomtom or satnav in the car can count down the distance by road, then I see no reason why this can’t be incorporated into DB.

Why can’t you track the position of the bus like you can track the position of a taxi in Uber?

Outkast_IRE · 10-11-2017 10:51pm

defrule wrote: »

May I ask how you can track BE buses online via website? I can only seem to find the realtime info but not map location of buses.

Its a bit of a workaround - so if you pick your bus stop on the website below.

http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=403

For my example i will pick "St. Patrick St (Brown Thomas

- [243491]" For the 214 bus.

It will then take you to a page with departures on it - in the drop down menu go to view arrivals . this will then show you the buses that are on the way to your stop.
If you hit view on one of these buses - it tells you what stop it is at or has just left.
Below that is a map which updates every few seconds

harringtonp · 09-04-2019 8:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Request the dataset through data.gov.ie

There's an option to "suggest a dataset"

The team behind it are quite pro-active in following up with dataset owners.

Failing that, FOI the internal policy that prevents them from opening it up.

Lastly, use AIE request to allow for accurate calculation and estimations of emissions data on bus routes.

That last one, EU legislation makes it difficult to refuse.

Pretty much all of the above is free of charge to a point so the only thing you need to do is spend some time

It's a year and a half later but just came across this and have made a submission:

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/suggest/aa0f432b-e741-4d65-aaee-6a772efde7b6

If a few likes will give this some momentum, they would be much appreciated.

harringtonp · 10-04-2019 9:12am

Actually guys, how are the real time predictions behaving these days ? Are there still many "ghost" buses ?

I gather from some of the app review comments I've read that there have been some real time API outages of late.

ohnonotgmail · 10-04-2019 12:48pm

harringtonp wrote: »

It's a year and a half later but just came across this and have made a submission:

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/suggest/aa0f432b-e741-4d65-aaee-6a772efde7b6

If a few likes will give this some momentum, they would be much appreciated.

I clicked on the like button and added a comment but i have no idea if they actually registered. the site doesn't give any indication.

harringtonp · 10-04-2019 3:34pm

Looks like it has registered, see

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/suggest/aa0f432b-e741-4d65-aaee-6a772efde7b6

You may need to refresh the page, I did.

ohnonotgmail · 10-04-2019 3:40pm

Cool. Hopefully the new service will be better.

Technocentral · 11-04-2019 8:50am

How does Luas work, same system?

Why is there no "real position" for Dublin Bus?

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