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AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

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Comments

  • #272
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Both positions are patriarchal in the extreme. Oddly you cant see that. And as for being " silent on womens oppression "over there"" well this is not the thread for that. Feel free to start one and i will happily join in and condemn the oppression of muslim women in other countries. My position is entirely consistant unlike yours which is both inconsistent and hypocritical.

    Let me just clarify this. Because this is what you said.
    Me criticizing compulsive hijab, and condemning the oppression of women under such obligation, is "racist and patriarchial"

    Are you for real?


  • #273
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Let me just clarify this. Because this is what you said.
    Me criticizing compulsive hijab, and condemning the oppression of women under such obligation, is "racist and patriarchial"

    Are you for real?

    No, you saying that muslim women in this country cannot wear the hijab is racist and patriarchal. I hope that is now clear.


  • #274
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Yep. Telling women what they can wear is racist and patriarchal. It doesn't matter if you're telling them to not wear something or to wear something, you're still dictating their wardrobe.


  • #275
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Yurt! wrote: »
    The Commissioner came out and stated that the wearing of those hoods was incorrect in those circumstances.


    They are intended as flame retardant hoods for use in conjunction with the full riot uniform and when there is an operational need for them - not because they were embarrassed to do their job and there was students around with camera phones.

    I'll repeat the question.
    Do Gardai wear balaclavas?
    Answer: yes
    As you just said.


  • #276
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    i look forward to the ranks of hijab clad gardai. allah knows it will make the muslim community trust the police more.


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  • #277
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    No, you saying that muslim women in this country cannot wear the hijab is racist and patriarchal. I hope that is now clear.

    You're contradicting yourself now.

    I suppose i should reiterate, I'm against all religious expression in the public service.

    Simple.
    Is that racist?


  • #278
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    It would if they took an oath to serve without favour. Displaying religious symbols says they favour one religion over another. Imagine the psni allowing protestant members to wear an orange sash, as its part of an orange mans ethnic identity.

    I'm atheist, do you think that I treat people who believe in god differently to those who do not?


  • #279
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    You're contradicting yourself now.

    It's not contradictory at all for them to say that telling women that they have to wear something is the same as telling them not to wear something. Either way you're telling them what they are allowed to wear. You're regulating their wardrobe.


  • #280
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    kind of defeats the whole purpose behind the idea of a uniform then.

    No problem with any officer wearing a concealed Cross, Star of David or Star and Crescent but no outward displays of religious affiliation please.

    They need to serve together as one.


  • #281
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I'm atheist, do you think that I treat people who believe in god differently to those who do not?

    To be fair I do. But only when they're really zealous. And even when i was a catholic I was like that. I think most catholics are nervous about people who are overly religious :D


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  • #282
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    kind of defeats the whole purpose behind the idea of a uniform then.

    No problem with any officer wearing a concealed Cross, Star of David or Star and Crescent but no outward displays of religious affiliation please.

    They need to serve together as one.

    yeah but diversity


  • #283
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    You're contradicting yourself now.

    I suppose i should reiterate, I'm against all religious expression in the public service.

    Simple.
    Is that racist?

    You are telling women that they cannot wear an item of clothing. that is patriarchal. whether it is racist in YOUR particular case i cant be sure.

    and i have not contradictated myself at all. Dictating to women what they can or cannot wear is patriarchal.


  • #284
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    kind of defeats the whole purpose behind the idea of a uniform then.

    No problem with any officer wearing a concealed Cross, Star of David or Star and Crescent but no outward displays of religious affiliation please.

    They need to serve together as one.

    so women should wear the same uniform as men then?


  • #285
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    You're contradicting yourself now.

    I suppose i should reiterate, I'm against all religious expression in the public service.

    Simple.
    Is that racist?

    That's an easy position to adopt when the local majority religion has no mandatory dress code for lay believers.

    This idea that wearing a cross is somehow analogous to a hijab ignores that reality.

    If joining the Gardai demanded a person to break some mandatory aspect of Catholicism, would you expect Catholics to agree with that demand?


  • #286
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    genuine question, will the gardai in the hijabs be wearing the same trousers as their colleagues?


  • #287
    Yurt2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    I'll repeat the question.
    Do Gardai wear balaclavas?
    Answer: yes
    As you just said.

    A huge win for you there. Your 4cm tall plastic trophy is in the post.


  • #288
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Grayson wrote: »
    It's not contradictory at all for them to say that telling women that they have to wear something is the same as telling them not to wear something. Either way you're telling them what they are allowed to wear. You're regulating their wardrobe.

    You might point out where im going wrong:

    Forcing women to wear hijab = "patriarchy"
    Criticising this patriarchal oppression= "racism"
    Being against all religious expressions in public service = "racist & patriarchal"



    (Couldnt give a monkeys what someone does in their own time.)


  • #289
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Yurt! wrote: »
    A huge win for you there. Your 4cm tall plastic trophy is in the post.

    Cheers!


  • #290
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    genuine question, will the gardai in the hijabs be wearing the same trousers as their colleagues?

    Presumably, most women I've met who wear hijab also wear trousers in a work environment.


  • #291
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    genuine question, will the gardai in the hijabs be wearing the same trousers as their colleagues?

    Why wouldn't they?


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  • #292
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    OK so basically the Gardai's uniform laws are being amended slightly so that people whose religious affiliations mandate certain standards of modesty (the head scarf) or require extra care with personal hygiene (Sikhs can't cut their hair, so they keep it wrapped up in a turban to mitigate the dangers of infestation from head lice and other creepy crawlies) can serve without impediment.

    Big swinging mickey!!!

    Presumably there will be some requirement for such head coverings to meet agreed standards of the uniform code (they may have to be in the right regulation blue, for example) Why is this a problem?

    "Oh my God, I would never have known Garda Singh was a Sikh if he was wearing a cap like the rest of them instead of a turban held together by a clasp bearing the Garda crest!! That's, like so-o-o-o too much information!:eek::eek:"

    This is just a dollop of common sense to accommodate the reality of today's world.


  • #293
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    AtomicHorror wrote: »

    If joining the Gardai demanded a person to break some mandatory aspect of Catholicism, would you expect Catholics to agree with that demand?

    If joining the Gardai demanded you rid yourself of an overt manifestation of your faith, along will all faiths, while on duty, i'd be perfectly fine with that. As for all public servants.

    (And thats not anti-Catholic before someone wades in)


  • #294
    PokeHerKing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,375 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    ohnonotgmail wrote:
    Time moves on and the country has evolved.

    Can you please Google the meaning of the word evolved. You keep using it incorrectly.


  • #295
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    If joining the Gardai demanded you rid yourself of an overt manifestation of your faith, along will all faiths, while on duty, i'd be perfectly fine with that. As for all public servants.

    (And thats not anti-Catholic before someone wades in)

    That is not answering my question.

    The issue for muslim women and sikh men is that their head-wear is a mandatory part of their faith. Would you expect a Catholic to break a mandatory aspect of their faith in order to join the Gardai?


  • #296
    Press_Start
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Press_Start


    If Catholic and Protestant members of AGS, can put their own views aside and police the country, other religions and nationalities should have the right to do so.
    Why should a man who is a citizen, which is a requirement to join AGS, not be afforded the same rights and responsibilities as a Guard, than he as in the public sector.
    Every Sikh I've ever had the pleasure of meeting is an absolute gent, and I've be delighted if more of them were Guards, just as much as the lads from the country.


  • #297
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    PokeHerKing wrote: »
    Can you please Google the meaning of the word evolved. You keep using it incorrectly.

    Maybe the meaning has evolved...

    Ba dum tiss
    Ill get me coat.


  • #298
    Mooooo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    This topic being discussed on morning Ireland now

    They are saying the guards MUST become more ethnically diverse

    Edit. Paul Reynolds just said there’s not one Muslim nor one Hindu in the guards at the mo

    What's the percentage breakdown in the population in general?


  • #299
    CB19Kevo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 805 ✭✭✭CB19Kevo


    This is bonkers!
    Uniform should be the same across the force.

    We should be moving away from religion interfering with public services..

    All for inclusion and diversity within the Gardai but standards need to be maintained.


  • #300
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    That is not answering my question.

    The issue for muslim women and sikh men is that their head-wear is a mandatory part of their faith. Would you expect a Catholic to break a mandatory aspect of their faith in order to join the Gardai?


    It is. Just not the answer you hoped for.
    Im against all manifestations/expressions of faith for public servants.

    (They arent being conscripted and having my secular view forced on them. They can choose not to join...)


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  • #301
    PokeHerKing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,375 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    AtomicHorror wrote:
    This idea that wearing a cross is somehow analogous to a hijab ignores that reality.

    AtomicHorror wrote:
    That's an easy position to adopt when the local majority religion has no mandatory dress code for lay believers.

    The hijab or any sort of head covering predates Islam. It is used as a means of oppression against women in a lot of Muslim countries. The religion side of it just makes it easier to enforce.


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