"Crusaders" offensive, bad word.

hatrickpatrick · 03-04-2019 09:02PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

sydthebeat · 03-04-2019 09:03PM

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Their full name is the Canterbury Crusaders. They play there matches in Christchurch like munster play in Limerick but they represent the whole of Munster.

No its not.....

Hasn't officially been canturbury crusaders since 1996. Any reference to their name as such since then has been incorrect.

Its just the crusaders.

For Forks Sake · 03-04-2019 09:07PM

judeboy101 wrote: »

Aren't the new Zealand rugby team called the "All blacks"? And none of them are actually black.

Fun fact. The New Zealand basketball team are nicknamed....

...the Tall Blacks.

conorhal · 03-04-2019 09:32PM

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Their full name is the Canterbury Crusaders. They play there matches in Christchurch like munster play in Limerick but they represent the whole of Munster.

New Zealand really needs to do something about the name of this city, how utterly disrespectful to the Muslim community there.

odyssey06 · 03-04-2019 09:33PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fun fact. The New Zealand basketball team are nicknamed....

...the Tall Blacks.

I am doubly offended by this name.
Ban basketball.

Richard Hillman · 03-04-2019 09:43PM

Without the Crusades we would be living in the stoneage. The reason why we have had such comfortable lives in Europe is because we conquered and plundered all of our weak neighbours. Be greatful for it.

Snow Garden · 03-04-2019 09:46PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Chrustchurch Crusaders. "Offensive" because of the crusades back nearly 1000 years ago, they are going changing the name of the rugby team.., I don't think Saladin and his crew were the nicest bunch either in all fairness. Will they change the name of Christchurch itself too? Surely that's "offensive" too .

Well actually Saladin is famous for his mercy, fairness and treatment of prisoners, in stark contrast to the crusaders. He gained huge respect amongst the Christian armies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Early_life

Saladin eventually achieved a great reputation in Europe as a chivalrous knight, due to his fierce struggle against the crusaders and his generosity....Despite the Crusaders' slaughter when they originally conquered Jerusalem in 1099, Saladin granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics and even to the defeated Christian army, as long as they were able to pay the aforementioned ransom

TheRepentent · 03-04-2019 09:47PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fun fact. The New Zealand basketball team are nicknamed....

...the Tall Blacks.

Still laughing

odyssey06 · 03-04-2019 09:48PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Without the Crusades we would be living in the stoneage. The reason why we have had such comfortable lives in Europe is because we conquered and plundered all of our weak neighbours. Be greatful for it.

I think the stone age lads were wiped out by the bronze age ones or maybe just enslaved. Then the iron age lads wiped out the earlier lots. The crusaders came up against an opponent who also had iron and made their objections known at the time ... at the end of a sword. I think the result has been declared a home victory.

Bad omen for a sports team to use a name like that but whatever objections anyone could make to the name now is nothing compared to the thousands of dead crusaders at the time.

Snow Garden · 03-04-2019 09:48PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fun fact. The New Zealand basketball team are nicknamed...

...the Tall Blacks.

Yes but the football team is called the All Whites!! :mad:

odyssey06 · 03-04-2019 09:56PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

Well actually Saladin is famous for his mercy, fairness and treatment of prisoners, in stark contrast to the crusaders. He gained huge respect amongst the Christian armies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Early_life

Not exactly. He executed knights templars ransom or not. He executed captured crossbowmen who as knights could not afford ransom.

When it made military sense to offer quarter he did. Richard the Lionheart was respected by Saladin and vice versa but both would and did execute prisoners, and both would and did offer quarter at times.
He largely played by the rules of war at the time - as did most of the Crusaders. Hence the respect of one military class to another.

Cienciano · 03-04-2019 09:57PM

Pauliedragon wrote: »

To be fair I dont think there was much of a call from the public for this. The Crusaders decided on a name change on their own so if a club decides to change their name that's up to them and the NZRU surely.

You're right, but they haven't even changed the name, they're consulting with the public and the fans to see how they feel about it and then they'll decide what to do. But the usual "pc gone mad" brigade that would probably eat up Daily Mail headlines are up in arms like always.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Banning historical things whether it be names,flags or statues just shows how weak their argument is

Nothing is banned here. Relax, take a deep breath and read the club statement

pleas advice · 03-04-2019 10:00PM

conorhal wrote: »

New Zealand really needs to do something about the name of this city, how utterly disrespectful to the Muslim community there.

Mohommadmosque

lawred2 · 03-04-2019 10:02PM

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

The permanently outraged will always find something to be outraged by.

Was anyone even 'outraged'?

I think this came from within the club.

pleas advice · 03-04-2019 10:15PM

from the thread on the shootings:

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm a New Zealander
...
The talk of changing the name of the local rugby team from the Crusaders to ???? is an interesting one. It would be good PR and a nice gesture to the community but in fairness a lot of the people calling for a name change at the moment, wouldn't be big rugby fans in the first place. I don't have an issue with the team being named the Crusaders or the Vikings or the Pirates as that is all ancient history. HoweverI think they will change it next season.

The Rape of Lucretia · 03-04-2019 10:29PM

Not much of a difference between the Crusaders invading the Arab world, and the Europeans invading the Maoris though either.

recedite · 03-04-2019 10:29PM

https://www.the42.ie/crusaders-name-change-4574222-Apr2019/

As the head of New Zealand Rugby said the current branding was “no longer tenable”, the Crusaders added that they would immediately halt their traditional pre-game entertainment of mounted, sword-wielding crusaders.

As a replacement pre-game entertainment, I suppose "the running of the jew" is now out of the question?

The Rape of Lucretia · 03-04-2019 10:31PM

recedite wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/crusaders-name-change-4574222-Apr2019/

As a replacement pre-game entertainment, I suppose "the running of the jew" is now out of the question?

New Zealand has no jews.

AllForIt · 03-04-2019 10:34PM

Absolutely absurd but not as serious as banning Jordon Peterson's book and even worse Australia furthering their stringent Internet laws.

Cienciano · 03-04-2019 10:37PM

AllForIt wrote: »

Absolutely absurd but not as serious as banning Jordon Peterson's book and even worse Australia furthering their stringent Internet laws.

His book wasn't banned in nz

Somedaythefire · 03-04-2019 10:39PM

Some absolute "snowflakes" in this thread getting upset at this.

recedite · 03-04-2019 10:44PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

New Zealand has no jews.

What, have they run out of them?
I guess that's the end of that idea.

AllForIt · 03-04-2019 10:51PM

Cienciano wrote: »

His book wasn't banned in nz

Correct soz. Was pulled from one major book store.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/mar/21/jordan-b-petersons-12-rules-for-life-pulled-from-n/

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/03/22/jordan-peterson-book-pulled-from-whitcoulls-shelves-after-christchurch-mosque-attacks_a_23698846/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_cs=HlMmjoXSZgWnyad48vRb_w

Cienciano · 03-04-2019 10:53PM

AllForIt wrote: »

Can only go by what I read online.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/mar/21/jordan-b-petersons-12-rules-for-life-pulled-from-n/

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/03/22/jordan-peterson-book-pulled-from-whitcoulls-shelves-after-christchurch-mosque-attacks_a_23698846/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_cs=HlMmjoXSZgWnyad48vRb_w

Exactly. Not banned. A shop decided not to stock it.

pleas advice · 03-04-2019 11:00PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

New Zealand has no jews.

Wibbs · 03-04-2019 11:05PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Not much of a difference between the Crusaders invading the Arab world, and the Europeans invading the Maoris though either.

Just bit of a difference. For a start the Crusades kicked off as a response to the Muslim Arab invasion of the Holy Land/Israel/Palestine and encroaches further into Europe, the majority of the landmass of the Iberian peninsula had already fallen. Too often these days, too many are self conscious and apologetic about the European religious and military past that they don't understand or have awareness of history and assume "we" were always the aggressors towards those poor "dark" people and even towards ourselves.

bodhrandude · 03-04-2019 11:48PM

Bad news for this group. :pac:

Strumms · 03-04-2019 11:50PM

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

The permanently outraged will always find something to be outraged by.

When there is nothing to be outraged by they will be outraged by that.

04-04-2019 12:21AM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This is from the clubs statement:
"it is apparent that the symbolism the club has used, combined with the ‘Crusaders’ name, is offensive to some in the community due to its association with the religious Crusades between Christians and Muslims"

The city has just undergone a huge tragedy, its hard to imagine what that would be like tbh and if changing the name and branding of a rugby club will help with the healing and show a bit of solidarity between two communities then more power to them.

That's a very fair context for understanding the change that nobody has mentioned. However, this understanding would not allow people to get outraged... about people who are allegedly outraged about the name.

Long live the online lulas. Uimhir a hAon for the craic.

Bannasidhe · 04-04-2019 12:40AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Just bit of a difference. For a start the Crusades kicked off as a response to the Muslim Arab invasion of the Holy Land/Israel/Palestine and encroaches further into Europe, the majority of the landmass of the Iberian peninsula had already fallen. Too often these days, too many are self conscious and apologetic about the European religious and military past that they don't understand or have awareness of history and assume "we" were always the aggressors towards those poor "dark" people and even towards ourselves.

Not quite.

The Crusades kicked off after the Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos (aka the Eastern Roman Emperor) appealed to the Pope for mercenaries to aid against the expanding Seljuk Turks (who were Muslim but not Arab). Rome was no ally of Constantinople (The argument as to which version of Christianity between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church had ended in a schism some 50 years before the appeal). Pope Urban saw this as an opportunity to get one over Rome's rival and so launched an appeal within Europe (aka Christendom) to protect the holy places of Christianity especially Jerusalem (which had been 'acquired' by the Roman Empire from the Jews in the first place) from the rampaging blah blah blah Muslims who has been there for centuries by that time. Constantinople could look after itself.

Things then went completely out of control.

One reason being that anyone who went on Crusade was not only absolved of any sins they may have committed, the were 'pre-absolved' for any sins they may commit while on crusade - so rape, murder, theft were all good. It was called a Sacre Bellum (which means the same thing as a Jihad - a Holy War).

Urban's idea was that the military class of Europe (all those bored knights whose only job was to fight) would answer the call, thereby removing all those knights who kept fighting from Europe and sending them far far away - however, there was a mass movement of ... rabble... who set off without equipment, a plan, or provisions, and destroyed all around them before dying of various disgusting diseases, starvation, and occasionally being stabbed with a sharp thing.

The various noble leaders had their own agendas - mostly getting rich and setting themselves up with some land far far away from their own liege lords.

So, The Crusades was an invasion of 'Outremer' by Europeans to 'take back' Christian holy sites that were originally Jewish holy sites which had been conquered (and destroyed) by the Roman Empire but were now under Muslim control (who did not persecute Jews unlike Christians in Europe) launched after the Eastern Roman Empire's lands (which had originally been conquered and had Christianity imposed on the inhabitants) were threatened by the expansion of the Seljuk Turkish Empire.

Apart from the 1st Crusade which ended in a slaughter of non-combatants in the Temple in Jerusalem and a European 'win' - the Crusaders got schooled in military tactics, logistics, engineering, and general warfare in every subsequent crusade to the region.
When it came to slaughtering unarmed people like the Cathers in France, however, they were mighty killers.

BTW - Muslim Iberia was one of the few shining lights of education, art, literature, and science during the Middle Ages. It not only preserved all that 'pagan' knowledge the RCC was intent on destroying - it added to it by creating universities open to people of all races and religions.

So yeah- Crusaders is a great name for a rugby team if their aim is to win their first match by injuring every member of the opposition and still get their arses handed to them in every single match afterwards.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the name but I think they should have perhaps researched it bit more.

"Crusaders" offensive, bad word.

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