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Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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  • #6332
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,352 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    MoD confirms some of it's staff don't favour Corbyn...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/unacceptable-video-shows-british-soldiers-shooting-corbyn-target-1.3848028


  • #6333
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    farmchoice wrote: »
    id say her suggestion for a short extension will fall on deaf ears in Brussels. once again the whole thing has a the look of a pretty shoddy attempt at a 3 card trick.
    id say the eu will tell her she can have a long extension with eu elections. in the unlikely event the uk get the whole thing sorted by the 22nd of may then perhaps they need not send the MEP's to Brussels, but they will have to go ahead with the elections on the assumption it wont be sorted and then take at least a one year extension if not longer.


    She may get a fast one past the Labour party, but even I think that is not going to happen but I doubt she will get it past the EU. They will see the fact that she wants an extension to the 22nd May as a way to not ask for a longer extension and having to participate in the EU elections. That way her deal is against an extra hard cliff and it would probably be passed by desperate politicians.

    I am cynical so I see this only as a way again to get her deal passed and to do it without blowing up the Conservatives. We know you will see mass resignations if she goes for a soft Brexit or a hard Brexit, but if she is able to get her deal through, which looks soft or hard depending which way you squint, she has delivered Brexit and she was not in charge for the break up of her party.

    What happens after she leaves is not her concern then. If BJ takes over and goes for a hard trade agreement with checks it is not her fault. At the same time if Hammond takes over and goes for a close relationship and the party splinters, then once again she is not responsible.


  • #6334
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It would be a stretch to propose that Corbyn and the Labour party don't get what is going on.
    He will play along but ultimately I cannot see anything coming from it. The various leopards have not changed spots suddenly.

    It is not a question of Labour knowing what is going on. TM said that if they failed to agree a way forward the HoC would revert to indicative votes.

    She only has to play along with Corbyn for a day or two, then come out to say that Labour what a 2nd Ref of CU or whatever and put forward a MV3. The hope would be that enough ERG and DUP are so scared that they support her.
    MV4 at this point no?


  • #6335
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    robinph wrote: »

    She'll outmanoeuvre Corbyn no problem

    Is there a single example of Theresa May outmaneuvering anyone, ever?

    She has been embarrassment after embarrassment after embarrassment since becoming PM


  • #6336
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,101 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Christy42 wrote: »
    MV4 at this point no?

    The last one wasn't technically the same as the others so MV2.5 or some such nonsense.

    But yeah, MV4 or whatever. The word 'meaningful' is the real problem!


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  • #6337
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    MoD confirms some of it's staff don't favour Corbyn...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/unacceptable-video-shows-british-soldiers-shooting-corbyn-target-1.3848028


    I am concerned about the UK. I read this story about a plot to kill another MP,

    The neo-Nazi paedophile who plotted to kill

    Now there isn't a big Brexit angle in the story but the fact that there was a plot to kill another politician and now we have the military shooting at pictures of the leader of the opposition. What is happening? If Corbyn takes over and some in the military doesn't agree with his leadership, that is a potential coup.


  • #6338
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,055 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    MoD confirms some of it's staff don't favour Corbyn...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/unacceptable-video-shows-british-soldiers-shooting-corbyn-target-1.3848028


    How stupid do you have to be to first allow yourself be videoed doing that and secondly to then put it online thinking there would be no repercussions


  • #6339
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,352 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    VinLieger wrote: »
    How stupid do you have to be to first allow yourself be videoed doing that and secondly to then put it online thinking there would be no repercussions
    When did the British army ever recruit intelligent people?


  • #6340
    Schnitzler Hiyori Geta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭Schnitzler Hiyori Geta


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Is there a single example of Theresa May outmaneuvering anyone, ever?

    She has been embarrassment after embarrassment after embarrassment since becoming PM
    I'd say the same thing about Corbyn though. It'll be like two wet paper bags negotiating with eachother.


  • #6341
    theguzman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭theguzman


    VinLieger wrote: »
    How stupid do you have to be to first allow yourself be videoed doing that and secondly to then put it online thinking there would be no repercussions

    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.


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  • #6342
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Is there a single example of Theresa May outmaneuvering anyone, ever?

    She has been embarrassment after embarrassment after embarrassment since becoming PM

    Well, when I say outmanoeuvre what is actually meant is that she'll stand behind her red lines and blame everyone else for not agreeing with them. There won't be any actual manoeuvring happening on her part.

    She'll stand her ground and not budge, then blame others for not budging.


  • #6343
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    robinph wrote: »
    Well, when I say outmanoeuvre what is actually meant is that she'll stand behind her red lines and blame everyone else for not agreeing with them. There won't be any actual manoeuvring happening on her part.

    She'll stand her ground and not budge, then blame others for not budging.

    Its weird how her intransigence is seen as a positive in some quarters.


  • #6344
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

    But the media also pontificate and tell everyone what to think about Corbyn to a level of ridiculousness right down to the coverage over how much much he bowed or didn't bow his head when laying a wreath on remembrance day! He won't engage in a debate on BBC because he knows there's no chance in hell that he'd be getting a fair hearing.

    I'd like to see some evidence of the royals opinions on Brexit. Is there any?


  • #6345
    Schnitzler Hiyori Geta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭Schnitzler Hiyori Geta


    Labour MP on BBC news now saying that it's the will of 90% of Labour party members that there is a confirmatory vote on any deal... "it is our clear policy" so he couldn't imagine that Corbyn will agree to anything with May that isn't subject to a confirmatory vote.

    So, potentially we could lose Corbyn from this as well if he agrees anything without confirmatory vote?


  • #6346
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Why do you think Barclay was out this morning flagging the confirmatory ballot as a difficult issue? Obviously trying to put a wedge between Corbyn and the majority of Lb voters and MPs.


  • #6347
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,055 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.


    I don't even know where to begin with this conspiracy theory laden nonsense but ill give it a go.


    Firstly "erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror" are both a direct result of conservative right wing agendas. Also the majority of mass media in the UK is incredibly conservative and the likes of the daily mail, telegraph and express readers seem to have no problem listening to elites like Boris, Mogg, Farage et al as long as they are saying stuff they agree with. Im not even acknoledging your other 2 points due to how ridiculous they are.


    Anyone who believes brexit, trump etc are symptoms of a singular issue like pushing back against a left wing agenda need to really get off breitbart and T_D as both issues are so incredibly more complex than that.


    You really think this video was a well planed MOD PR exercise and that the British army supported by the Royal family would actually try to launch a coup against Corbyn if he were elected PM? The conspiracy theory forum is here


    Finally please give proof that the royal family supported brexit that is not a link to a bias source misrepresenting facts akin to the Mail, Telegraph or express


  • #6348
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,419 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

    Have you sources for any of this?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #6349
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    MoD confirms some of it's staff don't favour Corbyn...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/unacceptable-video-shows-british-soldiers-shooting-corbyn-target-1.3848028
    Mainstream right-wing politics and media across the world have an extremely serious hate speech problem.

    An even bigger problem is that all of the people involved either don't see it as a problem at all, or don't see that they could possibly have anything whatsoever to do with the problem.


  • #6350
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,288 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Stacksofwacks wrote: »
    Honest question, why the hell didnt the UK decide what kind of Brexit they wanted BEFORE triggering article 50?

    Same reason they didn't decide what Brexit meant before putting it to a referendum - it was never meant to happen. The whole fiasco was an exercise in megaphone "diplomacy" between two right-wing factions of the English political establishment.

    Since the referendum, and especially since the triggering of Art.50, we're seeing a re-run of so much of English history, which has been forever characterised by two opposing forces and never any compromise.

    For that same reason, I suspect that Labour heard TM's statement yesterday and immediately thought "what's the catch?" She's left it too late in the day for her offer to be anything other than a Cunning Plan.

    I finally found time last night to read the politico article linked earlier and it certainly seems well-founded. I've had only the briefest passing acquaintance with any of the EU/National actors in this drama, but that was back in 2017 and even at that point they were several steps ahead in their Brexit planning than Westminster is today. That's why I'd say April 12th is the last we'll hear of the Withdrawal Agreement - after that, IndyRef2, UI and a new EU-UK FTA will fight for place on the front pages.


  • #6351
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Have you sources for any of this?

    It all comes from God. Angels whisper it to him as he writes because God hates Marxist lefties...


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  • #6352
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »
    Labour MP on BBC news now saying that it's the will of 90% of Labour party members that there is a confirmatory vote on any deal... "it is our clear policy" so he couldn't imagine that Corbyn will agree to anything with May that isn't subject to a confirmatory vote.

    So, potentially we could lose Corbyn from this as well if he agrees anything without confirmatory vote?

    Corbyn going would be a boost for Soft Brexit/Remain. At best, he's very reluctantly implementing the will of Labour party members. in fact, his mealy mouthed ineptitude is as much to blame for Brexit as May's intransigence.


  • #6353
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I think in fairness both Lb and SNP have compromised as the indicative vote process went on and that should be acknowledged.
    Sturgeon meeting with May today. SNP want in on the negotiations. Also in fairness they have a bloc of 35 votes that whip very effectively and are deliverable. Foolish to ignore them.


  • #6354
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,705 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.
    Gee, that must be why the Labour vote slumped so dramatically at the last election, and the Tories romped home with a historic majority.


  • #6355
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,153 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

    With regards to the last sentence of your first paragraph, there are some it seems who feel this way but the reality is that those that do think this way are vastly in the minority. Maybe they have grown in number from 10 years ago but they still hold a minority view.

    With regards the last sentence of your second paragraph. This is entirely untrue, the Royal family goes out of it's way to be apolitical.


  • #6356
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    TM starts PM questions by giving Jeremy a kick in the you-know-where knowing his views on NATO and neuclear deterrents.
    Doesn't auger well for the talks later on?


  • #6357
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    The European Commissioner for Customs, Pierre Moscovici, has a thread detailing no-deal customs scenarios - customs would be immediately applied on UK goods, businesses would have to pay VAT on imports, and there would be prohibitions or strict limits on certain goods:

    http://twitter.com/pierremoscovici/status/1113395957310394369


  • #6358
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

    Why do you use the word British. Brexit is an English movement.
    It is essentially an English nationalist movement that since it does not have any English national identities, defines itself by what it is against rather than what it stands for.

    It is exactly the same as the English football fans, who songs closely resemble the Brexit "discussion". The songs can be split into 3 different types -

    1 Inability to identify between England and Britain
    - God Save the Queen
    - Rule Britannia

    2 Nostalgia for the past
    - Three Lions
    - Dambusters

    3 Xenophobia
    - 10 German bombers
    - F*** the IRA
    - any song about Gibraltar or the Falklands


  • #6359
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

    Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.


    Do you have any evidence of this? If anything, it would seem the Queen was/is pro EU bearing in mind what she wore to the state opening of parliament in 2017. (See link below).


    For the first time in 43 years, Queen Elizabeth II of Britain on Wednesday did not wear her crown as she delivered the traditional Queen’s Speech and State Opening of Parliament.
    https://www.premiumtimesng.com/foreign/world-foreign/234699-first-time-43-years-uk-snap-election-denies-queen-elizabeth-traditional-grandness.html


  • #6360
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    TM starts PM questions by giving Jeremy a kick in the you-know-where knowing his views on NATO and neuclear deterrents.
    Doesn't auger well for the talks later on?


    They just cannot help themselves and think this is the best way forward. I fail to see how being so confrontational in politics is anything but obstructive to working together when the need is there. You can see it in their press and if you watch supporters on Twitter, if someone like Anna Soubry does well that benefits your party the first instinct is to attack her record and to show she is not that great. It is a never ending battle and it is tiring.


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  • #6361
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,646 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Stacksofwacks wrote: »
    Honest question, why the hell didnt the UK decide what kind of Brexit they wanted BEFORE triggering article 50? Instead of negotiating a deal no one wanted, they could have held votes in parliment to find out what the majority was for(if any) now we're left in a right mess with no plan b or c and no one seems to know what they are doing. Its incompetence to an almost criminal level

    Because May was under massive pressure from the media and the right of her party to trigger it, and trigger it with the hardest negotiating strategy as soon as possible. There was air of outright jingoism within the Brexit movement and May made a major strategic error of ceding to those voices via her Lancaster House speech and red lines. In the short term it looked like genius: she soared in the polls, approval ratings climbed and Corbyn was ridiculed by all and sundry.

    Hindsight is 20 : 20 and of course it's easy to see now that her decision was wrong. It limited her negotiating flexibility, imposed a ticking clock upon her and was tied up in the decision to call a general election which cost her a house majority and tied her faith to the DUP. Just now as then, her focus is always on surviving to Friday. She lacks vision and capability to deliver long term complex policy.


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