Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Panrich · 01-04-2019 10:45PM

McGiver wrote: »

CU noes:
Independents: 14
Labour: 10
Lib Dems: 5
Green: 1

That's 16 votes if I don't count independents. Could have easily passed.

2nd ref noes:
Independents: 5
Labour: 24

That's 24 labour votes. Could have easily passed.

Common Market:
Independents: 14
Labour: 25
Lib Dems: 4
Green: 1

That's 30 votes if I don't count independents. Could have easily passed. And should have frankly, this was Labour amendment and they were whipping for it.

Pretty much the same labour MPs appear on these three divisions. Hard not to notice Hoey, she should be kicked out of the Lb and join the DUP where she ideologically seem to belong.

There was also 33 'Peoples vote' Labour MPs that abstained from CM 2.0 vote.

Spanish Eyes · 01-04-2019 10:45PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Still a Tory however. How can he stand with these people he fundamentally disagrees with?

I suppose he might hope that he can try to change things from within. If he goes he has zero influence. Not that he has much now either. But still... he is a voice in the wilderness of the Tories.

McGiver · 01-04-2019 10:46PM

CU noes:
Independents:Â 14
Labour:Â 10
Lib Dems:Â 5
Green:Â 1

That's 16 votes if I don't count independents. Could have easily passed.

2nd ref noes:
Independents:Â 5
Labour:Â 24

That's 24 labour votes. Could have easily passed.

Common Market:
Independents:Â 14
Labour:Â 25
Lib Dems:Â 4
Green:Â 1

That's 30 votes if I don't count independents. Could have easily passed. And should have frankly, this was Labour amendment and they were whipping for it.

Pretty much the same labour MPs appear on these three divisions. Hard not to notice Hoey, she should be kicked out of the Lb and join the DUP where she ideologically seem to belong.

Enzokk · 01-04-2019 10:46PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Maybe but next time a SF spokesperson rails against the hard border down here, they should be regarded with disbelief. You judge them by their actions ultimately and they’ve failed us.

The only people those elected MPs are responsible for is their voters who are in their constituency. They have nothing to do with Ireland. Those voters would have voted for them knowing they would not be taking their seats. We can rail against it and wish they were there to make a difference on certain votes but it is not going to happen and thus the discussion about it is moot.

I know it is frustrating but whether you agree with their stance or not it will not change and thus discussing it again, and I am aware you may not have had the chance to air your views before, is just rehashing the same ground that leads nowhere.

Headshot · 01-04-2019 10:46PM

I see there was labour MPs voted against the whip again, probably not even a slap on the wrist....

I think there was even from the shadow bench

briany · 01-04-2019 10:46PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How often has that happened?

I'd imagine, politicians being politicians, that the chance of holding their seat is a factor in a sitting MP deciding to resign from their party.

McGiver · 01-04-2019 10:47PM

Panrich wrote:

There was also 33 'Peoples vote' Labour MPs that abstained from CM 2.0 vote.

Shocking, what's their point?

LeinsterDub · 01-04-2019 10:47PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

He was voted in on the basis of the manifesto. He no longer holds to that so the mandate is gone.

His mandate is to represent his consistency and the people of it. No more no less.

AllForIt · 01-04-2019 10:47PM

I would have thought that since the majority of parliament were originally remainers they wold have voted yes for these amendments which could have brought about the UK staying in the CU etc, a softer Brexit. Do those ppl now think they might get an even softer Brexit by bringing about a GE which might lead to revoking Article 50 altogether? If that is what's going on then I think that's despicable. What they may bring about is a total crash out, ironically.

Imreoir2 · 01-04-2019 10:48PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Article 50. They voted that if there was no agreement they would leave with no deal. We have to assume that they could read a very short piece of text.

Triggering A50 is not the same as voting for no-deal, this is clear as every time no-deal as an option has been put to the parliament, it has been rejected by a whopping majority.

People really need to stop pretending that a given vote means something significantly different simply because they would like it if it did.

The 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU, they did not vote to leave the customs union or single market, pretending they did is just silly. They were not asked about either of those things.

MP's voted to trigger A50, they did not vote for no-deal, pretending the did is again, silly. They have consistantly rejected that outcome by a greater margin than any other.

Please try to stick within the bounds of reality.

igCorcaigh · 01-04-2019 10:48PM

I was feeling hopeful earlier today, that something would give.

I still can't believe a no deal will happen.
Anyone here remember the down to the wire GFA?

Here's hoping

Spanish Eyes · 01-04-2019 10:48PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

He hasn't resigned his seat though, despite having no mandate to keep it and very little chance of winning if he evr stood for it again. Is that principle?

He made a public statement in the Commons and that was obviously very difficult for him, and I wouldn't dismiss that.

Apart from Clarke and Grieve, and now Boles.... the rest of them are nodding donkeys, IMV.

LeinsterDub · 01-04-2019 10:49PM

Headshot wrote: »

I see there was labour MPs voted against the whip again, probably not even a slap on the wrist....

I think there was even from the shadow bench

How can wrists be slapped when JC did it something like 90 times?

MikeSoys · 01-04-2019 10:50PM

if TM keeps fighting ..there will be no deal...im thinking ..But i think she might just give up and let it unravel itself ..if there was a no deal it would be chaos for 10 weeks or so but likely to be a stronger /leaner country in 10 yrs. i heard if there was a no deal french ports would go on strike (for some reason) whixh wont help ... ill miss M&S...ðŸ™„

Professor Moriarty · 01-04-2019 10:50PM

briany wrote: »

I'd imagine, politicians being politicians, that the chance of holding their seat is a factor in a sitting MP deciding to resign from their party.

Boles's constituency was 61% pro-Leave. I think he is taking a principled stance.

Imreoir2 · 01-04-2019 10:51PM

briany wrote: »

Nick Boles will sit as a 'progressive Conservative'? Sounds like a bit of a contradictory term.

Not really, you can be economically conservative while being socially progressive.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-04-2019 10:52PM

mazwell wrote: »

But if there was a no deal Brexit can they just rejoin the EU or would they have to be approved

The UK gov have a website for that. But it's pants. In large part to no one knowing if or what a deal or not might look like

http://gov.uk/euexit turns into https://euexit.campaign.gov.uk/

If you go to https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-germany It helpfully points you to the German Governments website which says

Yes, it is possible for the UK to rejoin the EU after leaving. However, under Article 50 para. 5 of the Treaty on European Union, it is clear that it would again be subject to the very long and complex procedure for joining the EU. And all the other EU member states would have to agree to the UK rejoining the EU.

Headshot · 01-04-2019 10:53PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

I was feeling hopeful earlier today, that something would give.

I still can't believe a no deal will happen.
Anyone here remember the down to the wire GFA?

Here's hoping

I think it's not as bad as people think

Ken Clarke's Customs Union only 3 away

Peter Kyle's people's vote 12 away

Miles better than what MV has ever done

I think it's very close to something here and hopefully Wednesday might show some more progress

Enzokk · 01-04-2019 10:53PM

McGiver wrote: »

Hard not to notice Hoey, she should be kicked out of the Lb and join the DUP where she ideologically seem to belong.

To think she is elected in London where the Remain vote was something like 70% or close to it. It is shocking that she is allowed to go against the wishes of her voters and her party and still be allowed to put her name next to it.

I am not in favour of deselection as I think it is open to abuse if an MP may not agree with the leader and is an easy way to get rid of them, but surely there should be more than enough reason for Labour to have suspended her from the party already. She has gone against the whip in important votes and one of them could have lead to an election in 2017 but her vote swung it for the PM. A disgrace to not even think of representing your voters in any way at all when the vote wasn't even close in her constituency.

Laois_Man · 01-04-2019 10:53PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1112831988145287173

The Brexiteer responses to that tweet are mind boggling!

Zubeneschamali · 01-04-2019 10:54PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Firstly it's a British mess solely and completely and secondly how would we be forced to pay?

Well. it's going to cost Ireland a lot more, percentagewise, than Germany. I think the "forced to pay" story is the beginning of trying to poor mouth the Germans and French into giving us free money because Brexit.

Bu everyone knows (because we keep telling them) that we are the fastest growing, nimblest economy in the EU and they will justifiably tell us to grow our way out of it, nimble fúckers that we are.

uck51js9zml2yt · 01-04-2019 10:55PM

But this way they force NI to vote for unification.

Mr.Nice Guy · 01-04-2019 10:55PM

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1112831558682066947

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1112832718251978752

I've never felt No Deal was likely but there does now seem to be a direction of travel towards it within the Tories which is worrying.

No Deal I think would cause seismic fissures within the UK, but it might serve to hold the Tories together, as well as the on-off relationship with the DUP.

I think a Prime Minister that prioritised country over party would never countenance such a thing.

But this is Theresa May.

ThePanjandrum · 01-04-2019 10:56PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How often has that happened?

Several cases. When Carswell and Reckless joined UKIP they triggered a by-election, Dick Taverner did in Lincoln when he became and Independent. Those are three that immediately come to mind but there have been others.

rubbledoubledo · 01-04-2019 10:57PM

The EU have to make a stand at this stage. This will keep dragging on and on. Let them go once and for all

Headshot · 01-04-2019 10:57PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How can wrists be slapped when JC did it something like 90 times?

I presume JC was never sanctioned as he had nothing to lose as he wasn't even on the front bench/Shadow cabinet iirc

Plus things should change when your leader of a party but with JC I doubt anything will

Spanish Eyes · 01-04-2019 10:57PM

So when is the next vote, Wednesday I think, although I haven't a clue what that's about, it is Groundhog Day for me now.

I think there is to be a five hour Cabinet meeting tomorrow. Is that right?

Anyway, up to the wire AGAIN.

Dreadful stuff. I suppose in a way because of GFA and Backstop etc. our own country is quite concerned now. But glad our Gov is keeping schtum for the moment anyway.

France may retaliate at their ports too, they have form!

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-04-2019 10:58PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

He was voted in on the basis of the manifesto. He no longer holds to that so the mandate is gone.

That’s not how the west minister system works. You may have noticed some defections from labour and the conservatives recently. No resignations of seats.

Water John · 01-04-2019 10:58PM

Kyle and Soubry seemed quite optimistic. A further narrowing and joining of the options on Wednesday, they feel will get the numbers. Fair play to their patience.

Panrich · 01-04-2019 10:58PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1112831558682066947

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1112832718251978752

I've never felt No Deal was likely but there does now seem to be a direction of travel towards it within the Tories which is worrying.

No Deal I think would cause seismic fissures within the UK, but it might serve to hold the Tories together, as well as the on-off relationship with the DUP.

I think a Prime Minister that prioritised country over party would never countenance such a thing.

But this is Theresa May.

I can't see how a no deal will hold the likes of Clark, Grieve etc. They have contempt for Brexiteers. Boles already gone tonight.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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