Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Calina · 30-03-2019 06:20AM

There is no way the UK population who voted in favour of EU exit understood the practical realities of leaving. They did not know that three years down the line they would be talking about stockpiling medicines or dealing with food shortages. They did not know or want to accept customs checks would turn Kent into a giant lorry park. They did not know or want to accept that the long term impact would be to lose manufacturing jobs in key industries over time. They did not see chunks of their main sources of taxes, ie the financial services industry would move to other EU states.

They may have wanted a fresh start but no one mentioned the sacrifices. I am not surprised Brexit won at the time but their media and their politicians brought that about.

I guarantee you if the Brexit campaigners had talked about medecine and food shortages as a necessary part of the sacrifice at the time, Brexit would not have won.

Calina · 30-03-2019 06:24AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

The people pushing Brexit are high powered wealthy people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Tim Weatherspoon. They are the very epitome of the people you appear to think you despise.

The worst day for democracy was the decision to run a referendum with maximum incompetency. We are looking at the fall out from that.

Lucy8080 · 30-03-2019 07:09AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

You should check out the Leave.Eu twitter page for the @Ianpaisleyuk speech at yesterdays rally in Parliament Square.

Highlights include him plamasing the crowd with thanks for standing by "ulster". Fcuk me, N.I. voted remain , the rest of Ulster didn't even know they were entitled to a vote.

I think Ian is having a mid-life crisis. If the crowd he was addressing knew of his record suspension from the house and dodgy expenses , as a starter for ten (never mind other mentionables), he may not have got off the stage in one piece.

I admire his hubris though!A real Democrat eh, speaking to others ( I imagine) who he feels a kindred spirit with. He even managed to throw in a Bible quote!

You could not write this stuff.

B.t.w.,yesterday, "Vote Leave" dropped it's appeal against The Electoral Commissions findings of multiple offences under electoral law,committed during the 2016 E.U. referendum campaign.

As one commentator hinted.." a good day to bury bad news".

lawred2 · 30-03-2019 08:04AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Like the ERG?

Enzokk · 30-03-2019 08:22AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

At least he has his integrity.

And yet on many votes he went for party over his principles. I agree that I think he is one of the few principled Tory politicians, but he should have walked with Soubry if he was really concerned for the country.

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

This is where you fall down, I think the SNP will win most of their seats back in a new general election. This is because the Conservatives has allowed Brexit to happen when the country is overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU. The reason the Conservatives did well was Ruth Davidson but her party has been found out in Westminster as not acting on behalf of their voters and you know the SNP will show a history of votes to voters to try and won those votes.

As for the deal, I agree that there will be one a few days later but it will not be because of EU begging. It will be to keep the border open on NI and Ireland as per the GFA and obligations that the UK has. This has been true but a fact people still deny or ignore.

AllForIt wrote: »

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

I agree they want total disengagement with the EU, I just don't think they know the price for this and if they did know most would not be willing to pay it. If you have been lied to and told you can leave and have most of the benefits and very little pain you will think it is a good deal. This is not reality though.

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Nigel is your common man, with his minted EU pension and private flights. He is fighting for the man on the street, I am sure he has no interest in the wealth of his contacts he built up working as trader.

Someone like Jess Philipps who comes from the working class whose father is a teacher and mother worked for the NHS. She is the problem for trying to stop Brexit and not Farage or Johnson or JRM or Raab. Or Cameron or Osborne, those millionaires has the interest of the average person in the UK in mind.

listermint · 30-03-2019 08:35AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Let me put this in terms that you may understand.

Leaving the EU was pushed by a tiny minority of Tory donors and insiders. People who have had a privileged up bringing, public school the works.

The same people who made massive bets on brexit. We're talking millions here , the same people who are against the EU offshore tax directives. The same people who funnel money on islands.

These people ,.these people pushed brexit through a dark money funded campaign and continue to push for no deal.

Why you ask.

Money.

That and they have houses in the South of France and monoco where they can piss off with their money anytime they choose.

To pretend there is an elite pushing the 'stay' mantra is to put it mildly 'trumpian'

Lucy8080 · 30-03-2019 08:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Trillions in assets moving to Belfast. GB totally reliant on NI for financial access to the EU. A booming economy. Strongest union ever.

Fools.

The U.K., in the midst of this business uncertainty, is currently being classed as a "third country" business wise (not a great position for investment).

City of London companies are hedging by opening offices in Amsterdam. The Dutch are less than an hour from london, in the E.U. and most speak English. Lloyds are just one company( among many) who have taken this precaution.

N.I. could have had a foot in the E.U and U.K. ,everyone speaks English and Amsterdam would not have got a look in(being E.U. only).

The D.U.P. killed that golden egg laying goose. I doubt they expected Brexit to win but....

Their inability to bag an unexpected bonanza( when it presented itself) is damning.

Leroy42 · 30-03-2019 08:56AM

IDS said yesterday that he believes that any deal can be ripped up anytime.

And of course this is true, but mostly countries want to adhere to agreements or negotiate new ones but try to avoid simply ripping them up.

But what it shows is that the EU would be foolish to grant further extensions. It's been 3 years since the vote, 2 since A50. And at no time has the UK shown it is willing to work with the EU.

I get that it is damage limitation, but sometimes one needs to accept the reality, the UK is in chaos and will be for some time. They want out, and at this stage I feel they need to be out. If they don't they will forever lament that they didn't.

The likely next Tory leader will be even more wedded to exit that TM and as such things will only get worse for the EU.

prunudo · 30-03-2019 09:05AM

Farage preaching up on that stage reminded me of one of those travelling salesmen who go to diy shows selling the best knives in the world or every lasting drill bits. There's always a crowd lapping up their bullsh1t sales pitch but you just know that they're full of broken promises.

Also I believe that while the people at the march yesterday may not of known or understood what they were voting for, the reality is they don't care about the consequences of leaving. You could spell out the pit falls of Brexit till the cows come home but they'll keep shouting rule Britannia and down with the EU while looking forward to their cheap holiday to the Spanish Costa's.

road_high · 30-03-2019 09:13AM

It’s an ideology, a cult. Not anything based on logic or rules. You’re supposed to “believe in Britain” as if that’ll be enough to over ride any slight drawbacks

judeboy101 · 30-03-2019 09:15AM

Dominic Grieve lost a vote of confidence by his local conservative assoc last night. Next stage is de-seelection. Campaign against him was organised by ex ukip turned Tory .

A Dub in Glasgo · 30-03-2019 09:18AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

The SNP will be wiped out in Westminster.

You have clearly misread any poll in Scotland (actually doubtful you have seen any poll in Scotland) if you think that

force eleven · 30-03-2019 09:21AM

Calina wrote: »

The people pushing Brexit are high powered wealthy people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Tim Weatherspoon. They are the very epitome of the people you appear to think you despise.

The worst day for democracy was the decision to run a referendum with maximum incompetency. We are looking at the fall out from that.

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

coastwatch · 30-03-2019 09:23AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

In spite of the enormous political mess that Brexit has created for the UK and the EU, I think it's some consolation that a majority in the HoC are opposed to a No Deal Brexit, now that they have had two years to understand the full implications. So some sense prevails.

It was criminally irresponsible of David Cameron to have gone with a simple Remain / Leave referendum on such a complex issue. There again, maybe he assumed that including more Leave options, would make it all just too complicated for the people. Maybe he was right.

Democracy is too important to leave up to the votes of the people.

Henry A. Kissinger

blackcard · 30-03-2019 09:24AM

April 1st 2029. Meaningful vote number 538 has been defeated by a margin of 50 votes. Commentators say that Teresa May will be lucky to survive as Prime Minister for another week. She states that she will continue to plan for an orderly Brexit. Boris Johnson tells her to go back to Brussels to renegotiate the backstop. "The EU needs us more than we need them" Sammy Wilson attacks the Irish government as belligerent and for saying no to every proposal. Groundhog day

Zubeneschamali · 30-03-2019 09:29AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I get that it is damage limitation, but sometimes one needs to accept the reality, the UK is in chaos and will be for some time. They want out, and at this stage I feel they need to be out. If they don't they will forever lament that they didn't.

You say you get that it is damage limitation, but it isn't. It is damage elimination. There is zero damage, zero downside for the EU in having the UK remain. Brexit is lose lose, the EU loses, especially Ireland, and the UK loses more.

If the only price is some lamenting by English nationalists, I say lament away!

Igotadose · 30-03-2019 09:30AM

force eleven wrote: »

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

So, two wolves & 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner is democracy? Or, a more timely example, the electoral college governs US presidential elections is not democratic because the majority can vote for someone who doesn't become President?

The EU never takes decisions against itself? Seriously? You don't mean Ireland's votes on the Lisbon treaty by any misunderstanding, do you?

Basically, what you're preaching here, is religion. Facts (trillions moving already from the UK, many many examples of business leaving, people leaving) don't matter. It will all be fine. Keep calm and carry on, but do what I want you to do. Millions signing a petition - undemocratic.

Sad thing is none of this is new and is the best the Brexiteers can come up with. Give us something new here, like, I don't know, a tangible benefit from the UK being outside the EU. Specific though - based on a withdrawal agreement, i.e., unicorns don't count. Specify how the UK exited and what the result would be, and by when. Thanks.

A Dub in Glasgo · 30-03-2019 09:32AM

force eleven wrote: »

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted.

Interestingly, the 'will of the people' would have been declared null and void if the referendum was binding because the winning side broke laws therefore it was a flawed referendum and democracy is not about accepting results in those situations. The only reason the referendum was not delcared null and void is the fact that it was only an advisory referendum

fash · 30-03-2019 09:35AM

force eleven wrote: »

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

So what you are saying is that Ireland and the EU should accept a hard border in NI, the return of British soldiers, the inevitable collapse of the good Friday agreement and the inevitable murder by British soldiers of more Irish people - just so that Jacob Rees Mogg can make a few million by impoverishing large parts of the UK?

Sorry but I do not accept that - either the UK accepts the backstop - or they can go f**k themselves.

As regards "the will of the majority", the majority of the UK wants to remain in the EU.
Three majority of the UK voted overwhelmingly for EU membership in the 1970's and for almost all of the 40 years membership the majority (except for one brief instance where influenced by illegal campaigns and obvious and deliberate lies) have wanted EU membership.
The overwhelming majority hates every particular form of brexit.
The majority of NI and Scotland both voted to remain in.
The majority in NI wants a backstop.

So why don't you accept the will of the majority? Are you a traitor to or enemy of the British people? For shame, for shame.

elvis83 · 30-03-2019 09:40AM

Frustrating interview with Brendan O'Neill on The Stand podcast. It's actually shocking how dismissive these brexiteers are of the potential threat to peace on this island.

They really are living in a different, made-up world. And the worst thing is they'll never have to answer for their crimes.

judeboy101 · 30-03-2019 09:46AM

fash wrote: »

So what you are saying is that Ireland and the EU should accept a hard border in NI, the return of British soldiers, the inevitable collapse of the good Friday agreement and the inevitable murder by British soldiers of more Irish people - just so that Jacob Rees Mogg can make a few million by impoverishing large parts of the UK?

Sorry but I do not accept that - either the UK accepts the backstop - or they can go f**k themselves.

As regards "the will of the majority", the majority of the UK wants to remain in the EU.
Three majority of the UK voted overwhelmingly for EU membership in the 1970's and for almost all of the 40 years membership the majority (except for one brief instance where influenced by illegal campaigns and obvious and deliberate lies) have wanted EU membership.
The overwhelming majority hates every particular form of brexit.
The majority of NI and Scotland both voted to remain in.
The majority in NI wants a backstop.

So why don't you accept the will of the majority? Are you a traitor to or enemy of the British people? For shame, for shame.

The UK never held a referendum where the choice was join or not join, they have had 2 again where the choice was leave or stay. The brits were forced into eec by parliament.let them leave and let them choose to join.

road_high · 30-03-2019 09:52AM

judeboy101 wrote: »

The UK never held a referendum where the choice was join or not join, they have had 2 again where the choice was leave or stay. The brits were forced into eec by parliament.let them leave and let them choose to join.

I don’t think if they leave in an orderly fashion too many in the Eu will be very eager to have them rejoin after the past few years goings on...

fash · 30-03-2019 09:55AM

judeboy101 wrote: »

The UK never held a referendum where the choice was join or not join, they have had 2 again where the choice was leave or stay. The brits were forced into eec by parliament.let them leave and let them choose to join.

I never said they were- I specifically said they voted for EU membership - not to join. ( And they voted convincingly for that). Furthermore, the UK is parliamentary democracy - where the political system has exceptional difficulty understanding and working with the concept of referenda - as seen inter alia from the Brexit fiasco

FrancieBrady · 30-03-2019 10:02AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

That is just wrong.

You are placing responsibility for this not happening on some nebulous force. No one single person or group STOPPED Brexit happening
Holding a non binding Referendum in a monarchy is the problem.

There is an onus on the electorate to know that this could happen too, it isn't all that surprising.

An Ciarraioch · 30-03-2019 10:02AM

Tony Connelly has an excellent article on how a hard Border could potentially be avoided even in a no-deal Brexit - a mixture of measures including filling out customs procedures online, factory and shop checks on produce, and companies undertaking measures as part of a "transit" process:

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0330/1039471-brexit-no-deal-tony-connelly/

Akrasia · 30-03-2019 10:03AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

What do you think democracy means?

Rick and Morty are a comedy Sci Fi cartoon, which sounds off topic, but they have an episode where Rick invents a machine that creates a wish fulfilling slave creature called Mr Meeseeks. Mr Meeseeks will stop at nothing to carry out your one and only wish which can not be cancelled or changed.

The wish goes badly wrong and ends up almost killing the person who wished it, all because it was a poorly thought out choice that was forced to be implemented.

Democracy is about giving people the power to make decisions that affect them. Either through direct democracy, or representatives.one of tge central principles of democracy is accountability. If the representatives go beyond their mandate, the people have the right to hold them to account. Democracy not about giving 'the people' a single choice one time and then blindly following it regardless of the consequences. Over simplifying 'the will of the people' is stupid and dangerous and can lead to demagogues taking control by pretending to speak for 'the people' when they're just seizing power for themselves

Itssoeasy · 30-03-2019 10:12AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So if everything had worked out rightly the UK would have left the EU 29 minutes ago.

No, it hasn’t been today for a few weeks. There’s a extension until April if no deal happened today (and until May if a deal was agreed).

Monday is therefore very important.

Yea I know but if you read my post I say “if everything had worked out rightly” meaning had the WA been voted through first time it would have been yesterday.

Hurrache · 30-03-2019 10:13AM

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

Christy42 · 30-03-2019 10:14AM

force eleven wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

The people pushing Brexit are high powered wealthy people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Tim Weatherspoon. They are the very epitome of the people you appear to think you despise.

The worst day for democracy was the decision to run a referendum with maximum incompetency. We are looking at the fall out from that.

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

The UK could leave today if it wished. The EU has done nothing to stop it. I don't get how people try and blame it in these cases.

If you want to be gone blame Parliament but blaming the EU for the UK's own issues is just ridiculous.

They want to get away from having decisions made in the EU but want the EU to tell them how to do that.

Enzokk · 30-03-2019 10:16AM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Tony Connelly has an excellent article on how a hard Border could potentially be avoided even in a no-deal Brexit - a mixture of measures including filling out customs procedures online, factory and shop checks on produce, and companies undertaking measures as part of a "transit" process:

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0330/1039471-brexit-no-deal-tony-connelly/

The interesting thing here is that there will not be a hard border on day one of the crash out. Because it takes warnings and time for it to be implemented it will give us time to work out what will happen, while we are not doing much now (appearing not to do much). In that time you would hope the UK agrees a deal with the EU on NI and keeping the border open before the real tough decisions will have to be made, putting up the border that is.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Comments