Is Totalitarianism on the rise on The Left?

manual_man · 21-03-2019 3:00am #1

I honestly can't shake the feeling that it is. Now maybe it's just a feeling that will dissipate in a post-Trump era(whether in 2 or 6 years time), but The Left is freaking me the f*** out at present. The Left in the U.S. is almost unrecognisable to me now, compared to what it was, say, just 20 years ago.

What do we think? It is just a reaction to Trump and how opposition politicians and large portions of media are seeking to portray Trump for their own benefit?

At present it concerns me greatly the attacks on free speech (mostly coming from The Left) - the reluctance to have difficult but necessary discussions, the regular appeal to "emotion", rather than concentrating on fact. Also it seems to me that The Left is cynically targeting children more and more looking to use them as political weapons/pawns. I have a bad feeling. I can't shake the feeling that Totalitarianism is on the rise on The Left and it could lead to something bad.

Please discuss.

And please no personal attacks in this thread, to me or anyone else. Thanks.

21-03-2019 3:58am

Yes, it is.

It's a feeling I've been getting over the last few months since Covington. Without facts, that was a perfectly political thing to talk about in the Trump thread. Once the truth came out, it was deemed off-topic nuking a much needed conversation about the left's behaviour. Disgusting posters in that thread wanted to doxx those teenager boys and instead of bans, they got thanks. Vile. Others said after the fact that even though they were innocent, they deserved what they got because they were wearing MAGA.
Where was the left's condemnation of the racism teenagers suffered at the hands of adults? Nowhere to be seen. It's the wrong type.

The left attacked everyone who doubted the Jussie Smollett story, even though it was comical. Truth comes out? Ignore.

Australia banning right-leaning sites for containing links to content, but not the left-leaning sites actually hosting it. The left cheers it on. Almost all sharing of that video was done on WhatsApp, Messenger, Facebook groups, Viber etc. But we like those sites, I guess.

There is a total disregard for the notion of free speech. Someone says something you don't like? "Ban. They can just use another site. Also, ban those sites."

Everyone thought it would be the right who brought about 1984. It's the left. This isn't hyperbole. People's lives are being ruined because of wrong think. It's the societal issue I care most about now.

sameoldname · 21-03-2019 4:15am

If you're worried about totalitarianism coming from the left and you're not seeing the exact same stuff coming from the right, then you're part of the problem.

Everything is now dominated by the extremists and the people who can see both sides (i.e. the centrists) are completely ignored.

21-03-2019 4:28am

sameoldname wrote: »

If you're worried about totalitarianism coming from the left and you're not seeing the exact same stuff coming from the right, then you're part of the problem.

Everything is now dominated by the extremists and the people who can see both sides (i.e. the centrists) are completely ignored.

The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

listermint · 21-03-2019 4:35am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

You and a prime example of his point frankly.

I've read your contributions to threads all over the site.

You refuse to acknowledge a really hard right wing streak that's over taking various countries.

So it's ironic you are slinging accusations at other posters

sameoldname · 21-03-2019 4:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

Easily outraged: Both extreme left and right.
Ignores facts: Extreme left and right.
Judgement before evidence: Extreme left and right.
Emotional arguments: Extreme left and right.
More interested in winning than being correct: Extreme left and right.
Hates people who don't agree with them: Extreme left and right.
Persecution complex: Extreme left and right.
Closer to each other than to the rest of us: Extreme left and right.
Absolute belief that they are correct: Extreme left and right.
Yada, yada, yada...

Hobosan · 21-03-2019 5:46am

Totalitarianism couldn't possibly rise any further in the United States. They have absolutely perfected it. You can't improve perfection. It's absolutely beautiful what they have achieved.

21-03-2019 7:07am

listermint wrote: »

You and a prime example of his point frankly.

I've read your contributions to threads all over the site.

You refuse to acknowledge a really hard right wing streak that's over taking various countries.

So it's ironic you are slinging accusations at other posters

I refuse to acknowledge it about Ireland and this site, not other countries where it may or may not be happening.

Basically, your talk of Russian bots largely coincided with the closure of politics.ie, which had a more right-leaning userbase. What you call a rise, I call a site change.

The vast majority of regular people don't care enough to get into discussions on Islam for example, but regular people still vastly outnumber those right / alt-right posters in every thread on here, the people who will always post in those threads. I find it pretty damn odd that anyone could argue that the right are taking over, when that is taken into account.

It's the reason for Casey's polling on here being twice that of the national vote. SNIP. Everyone else realises that not everyone voted in the poll. The majority of people just don't care and scroll past.

A lot more is needed before I'll accept that there is some worrying shift happening in Ireland.

sameoldname wrote: »

Easily outraged: Both extreme left and right.
Ignores facts: Extreme left and right.
Judgement before evidence: Extreme left and right.
Emotional arguments: Extreme left and right.
More interested in winning than being correct: Extreme left and right.
Hates people who don't agree with them: Extreme left and right.
Persecution complex: Extreme left and right.
Closer to each other than to the rest of us: Extreme left and right.
Absolute belief that they are correct: Extreme left and right.
Yada, yada, yada...

I agree with everything you just posted, but it's all just a description of extremism.

This thread is about totalitarianism. It's about silencing people, or about ruining people who don't agree with you. Instead of it being a state as its defined, it's about an ideology.

People don't lose their jobs or friends because they're a Democrat. People aren't afraid to wear an "I'm with her." cap. Posters don't create alt accounts to share their left-leaning views, lest their main account becomes hated.

There is a silent base of right-leaning regular folk who are afraid of the consequences of making their voices heard. In offices, do you hear the left or the right talking politics? Because in my teacher's room, the Trump-voter is silent, and none of the new teachers are even aware of his views. Basically, there can be severe repercussions for being on the right.

And recently, there is a definite surge in the right being removed off the internet, or demonitized, since all the main services are left-leaning. This is the part that worries me. I hate censorship. I hate companies with leanings have so much power of social discourse. It's really quite annoying that so many people support it because of the short-term joy of echo-chambers.

There is only one debate here really. Is the left preventing the right from having their voices heard? I think it's a definite yes. If you think it's a no, and you want to argue that the right can share their opinions just like the left, you're free to do so. But I'd challenge you to claim you like Trump within earshot of your boss.

ancapailldorcha · 21-03-2019 8:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

Banned.

Nody · 21-03-2019 9:03am

Hobosan wrote: »

Totalitarianism couldn't possibly rise any further in the United States. They have absolutely perfected it. You can't improve perfection. It's absolutely beautiful what they have achieved.

Sorry but this is complete BS; it may the in thing to claim that US is totalitarian due to Trump but it's far from the truth. How about you actually speak with a living person who lived under for example communism? Did you know for example they have guard towers in the farms because during the communist era they had soldiers stationed there to shot anyone trying to steal the produce (since all produce was the state's property even if the working class went hungry)? Or ask them how they got assigned, not choose, their educational path and what work they were going to do. I have; my father in law wanted to become a doctor but the state decided in his second year that he should be a dentist instead as they were low on them that year. They assigned him an apartment in the city he was to work and he was not allowed to move from it; same with the car etc. That is totalitarianism, not what's in the USA currently (though they are working towards it).

Wanderer78 · 21-03-2019 9:26am

Deleted User wrote:

It's the reason for Casey's polling on here being twice that of the national vote. SNIP. Everyone else realises that not everyone voted in the poll. The majority of people just don't care and scroll past.

To be fair, casey's overall 'success' shows there's an opening for populism in Irish politics, which I think might rare it's ugly head again soon. On that matter, he must be busy sorting out his Irish tax affairs, he's gone rather quite!

Brian? · 21-03-2019 9:30am

What "left" in the US? Bernie Sanders and so on?

Brian? · 21-03-2019 9:35am

manual_man wrote: »

I honestly can't shake the feeling that it is. Now maybe it's just a feeling that will dissipate in a post-Trump era(whether in 2 or 6 years time), but The Left is freaking me the f*** out at present. The Left in the U.S. is almost unrecognisable to me now, compared to what it was, say, just 20 years ago.

Freaking you out, why? What has changed about them?

I would propose that there was no left wing alternative in the US 20 years ago. Now we have a small group with progressive idea actually getting elected. Even then, they are pretty much in lone with European moderates politically.

Unless you're talking about the identity politics brigade. They're not really a political force in any real way and are used as a bogeyman by the right.

What do we think? It is just a reaction to Trump and how opposition politicians and large portions of media are seeking to portray Trump for their own benefit?

At present it concerns me greatly the attacks on free speech (mostly coming from The Left) - the reluctance to have difficult but necessary discussions, the regular appeal to "emotion", rather than concentrating on fact. Also it seems to me that The Left is cynically targeting children more and more looking to use them as political weapons/pawns. I have a bad feeling. I can't shake the feeling that Totalitarianism is on the rise on The Left and it could lead to something bad.

Please discuss.

And please no personal attacks in this thread, to me or anyone else. Thanks.

I'm not trying to insult, but you don't seem to know what Totalitarianism is.

I'd like to know who exactly you're referring to when you say "The left". It would make the discussion a lot easier.

Chips Lovell · 21-03-2019 9:42am

You appear to have misunderstood what totalitarianism means:

Totalitarianism is a political concept of a mode of government that prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life. It is regarded as the most extreme and complete form of authoritarianism.

The U.S. doesn't have a left wing government, let alone a totalitarian left wing government. The closest they've come to a left wing government was probably FDR.

hill16bhoy · 21-03-2019 10:19am

manual_man wrote: »

I honestly can't shake the feeling that it is. Now maybe it's just a feeling that will dissipate in a post-Trump era(whether in 2 or 6 years time), but The Left is freaking me the f*** out at present. The Left in the U.S. is almost unrecognisable to me now, compared to what it was, say, just 20 years ago.

manual_man wrote: »

At present it concerns me greatly the attacks on free speech (mostly coming from The Left) - the reluctance to have difficult but necessary discussions, the regular appeal to "emotion", rather than concentrating on fact. Also it seems to me that The Left is cynically targeting children more and more looking to use them as political weapons/pawns. I have a bad feeling. I can't shake the feeling that Totalitarianism is on the rise on The Left and it could lead to something bad.

This post is a satire of the standard fact-free bluster we hear constantly from reactionary right-wingers, right?

Or am I giving you far too much credit?

manual_man · 21-03-2019 10:22am

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

You appear to have misunderstood what totalitarianism means:

The U.S. doesn't have a left wing government, let alone a totalitarian left wing government. The closest they've come to a left wing government was probably FDR.

I misunderstood nothing. I expressed my concern that it is on the rise on The Left. Being on the rise, and Totalitarian government control are not the same thing. But nor are they mutually exclusive. The former is what can lead to the latter. Which is my concern. Thanks.

seamus · 21-03-2019 10:36am

Can you give some examples of this totalitarianism from the Left (with a capital L).

And I mean statements and actions from politicians and organisations, not left-leaning articles in media or screaming hysteria from some random person on Twitter.

Chips Lovell · 21-03-2019 10:45am

manual_man wrote: »

I misunderstood nothing. I expressed my concern that it is on the rise on The Left. Being on the rise, and Totalitarian government control are not the same thing. But nor are they mutually exclusive. The former is what can lead to the latter. Which is my concern. Thanks.

Is there anyone actually advocating totalitarian government in the U.S. though? Left wing politics is very much a minority sport in that country and if there are any leftwingers advocating totalitarianism, they've a long way to go before it becomes worrying.

oscarBravo · 21-03-2019 10:52am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

To be fair, casey's overall 'success' shows there's an opening for populism in Irish politics, which I think might rare it's ugly head again soon. On that matter, he must be busy sorting out his Irish tax affairs, he's gone rather quite!

Last seen wittering on about how 5G wireless would make fibre obsolete. In other words, celebrating his ignorance publicly. Again.

Danzy · 21-03-2019 11:01am

Unfortunately yes.

There is a growing ultra confirmism on the Left.

One can look at past tendencies to it but it seems more apt to view it in terms of religious fundamentalism.

People aren't just wrong but viewed as vile sinners, they are as quick to hunt each other as opponents and there is an overwhelming stink of righteousness.

The Left is profoundly broken.

hill16bhoy · 21-03-2019 11:29am

Danzy wrote: »

Unfortunately yes.

There is a growing ultra confirmism on the Left.

One can look at past tendencies to it but it seems more apt to view it in terms of religious fundamentalism.

People aren't just wrong but viewed as vile sinners, they are as quick to hunt each other as opponents and there is an overwhelming stink of righteousness.

The Left is profoundly broken.

I know this isn't satire but it really should be.

mcmoustache · 21-03-2019 1:50pm

Assuming that this isn't a wind-up, the closest thing that I can imagine as being a potential left-wing totalitarian regime under the right circumstances in this free market EU that we live in would be a hypothetical Corbyn-lead Labour government. He strikes me as a closet communist if not a fully out communist.

Fortunately, I don't think Corbyn would be able to sell communism to the party, let alone to the public unless something happens in the UK that leads to an economic disaster that ends in some kind of workers' revolt. I guess we'll have to see how the Strong and Stable right-wing government navigates Brexit - they seem confident that it'll be great and there's even a slim possibility that they know what they're doing and aren't participating in some kind of crazy mass delusion... a slim possibility.

In other countries in europe, I can't think of any left-wing, let alone totalitarian governments. Maybe Belarus but it's been around for a while and hasn't really risen or fallen in years. It might get absorbed into Russia in the near future. Most of the rest of europe, particularly in the EU seems to favour free markets and discourages state ownership of the means of production. That's the opposite of left wing.

Unless of course, as seamus has suggested, the OP considers the presence of some shrieking gender-fluid, pink-haired bearded person in a dress on twitter to be left-wing totalitarianism. Then I guess, yes you could say that left-wing totalitarianism is on the rise but you need to redefine words to mean something else. It's a bit like saying that faeces taste delicious if you redefine the word "faeces" to mean marmite or something.

The problem is that if you just start redefining words to mean whatever you want them to mean that you'll start to sound bonkers.

Brian? · 21-03-2019 1:54pm

manual_man wrote: »

I misunderstood nothing. I expressed my concern that it is on the rise on The Left. Being on the rise, and Totalitarian government control are not the same thing. But nor are they mutually exclusive. The former is what can lead to the latter. Which is my concern. Thanks.

I'll politely ask again. Who do you mean when you say "The Left"?

I want to double check against the roll take at our last bi monthly meeting. You see we all agreed to not be totalitarian last year, we finally talked the Stalinists around. They were both very upset. The other 2.84 billion of us thought it was time though.

osarusan · 21-03-2019 1:58pm

sameoldname wrote: »

Easily outraged: Both extreme left and right.
Ignores facts: Extreme left and right.
Judgement before evidence: Extreme left and right.
Emotional arguments: Extreme left and right.
More interested in winning than being correct: Extreme left and right.
Hates people who don't agree with them: Extreme left and right.
Persecution complex: Extreme left and right.
Closer to each other than to the rest of us: Extreme left and right.
Absolute belief that they are correct: Extreme left and right.
Yada, yada, yada...

Add to this a tendency to add 'serious' labels to arguments, in an attempt to validate them.

Terms like 'free speech', 'misogyny', 'censorship', 'racism' are just slung around with ridiculous casualness at anything people don't like. Because those are real terms about serious things, and if a person can somehow pretend that their argument aligns with one of them, it also becomes a real thing, a serious thing.

The word 'totalitarianism' in this thread is a good example of that.

Billy Mays · 21-03-2019 4:58pm

Hang on, this thread is about the USA? Totalitarianism on the rise on the left in the USA??!!

F*cking hell, you need to take a closer look at the White House if you're looking for totalitarianism on the rise in the USA ffs.

mcmoustache · 21-03-2019 5:09pm

Billy Mays wrote: »

Hang on, this thread is about the USA? Totalitarianism on the rise on the left in the USA??!!

If you define as leftwing totalitarianism as "some insufferable gob****e on twitter going on about the patriarchy all the time", then I guess you could.

But that's the thing about words. They mean things and using them the wrong way is just confusing.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-03-2019 9:13pm

Brian? wrote: »

What "left" in the US? Bernie Sanders and so on?

The American left I assume. Largely identity politics driven. Influences here a lot as well.

Is this left wing the same as old school socialism, labour unions etc. No, often it has quite different aims. But it’s generally regarded as left rather than right.

Your argument is a form of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Brian? · 21-03-2019 9:53pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The American left I assume. Largely identity politics driven. Influences here a lot as well.

Is this left wing the same as old school socialism, labour unions etc. No, often it has quite different aims. But it’s generally regarded as left rather than right.

Your argument is a form of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

What argument? I am waiting for an answer from the OP on who he's on about. I'll play the Scotsman card then if needed.

mcmoustache · 21-03-2019 10:06pm

And I'd still like to hear where this totalitarianism from the left is. The OP might have just been confused about the meaning of words but I wouldn't mind having that clarified.

Ultros · 21-03-2019 10:25pm

It's not just the US ( below twitter link ), and it's not the right who are pushing such insanity. You talk about children being victims and I totally agree, what they pushing on these toddlers is child abuse and the activists along with crux of the media are happy to go along with it, as are the politicians out of fear. There's a mob mentality at play when it comes to the identity politics among other things.

Far left ideology or whatever you want to call it has utterly taken over college campuses and faculties in the US. Outgoing kids go to college for a few years and come out as angry, mad at the world activists. Forget the media and silicon valley. According to this article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1108253119421562880

Ultros · 21-03-2019 10:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Once the truth came out, it was deemed off-topic nuking a much needed conversation

If you think it's bad here ( it's really not even when you take into account 90% of posters are left wingers ), have a look at r/politics on reddit. It's a online liberal pac posing as a neutral political discussion forum.

Anything they consider negative or even neutral in tone is muted. At least the cesspool Trump forum is honest about what it is.

hill16bhoy · 22-03-2019 1:58am

mcmoustache wrote: »

And I'd still like to hear where this totalitarianism from the left is. The OP might have just been confused about the meaning of words but I wouldn't mind having that clarified.

The OP talked about "fact over feeling", yet could only provide feeling, which is about all the right can do these days.

Right-wing politics has always had an intellectual crisis, it has consistently been on the wrong side of history, it has always sought to deny rthe rights of minorities and the vulnerable, but it has never had more of an intelletual crisis never than now. In country after country, it has been hijacked by crypto-facists and populist bull****ters to whom truth is a mortal enemy.

Trump and Brexit are just the most obvious chaotic manifestations of it, but Brazil, India, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy and the Philippines etc. are now in the grip of outright fascist or crypto-fascist chaos as well. The wider manifestations of it are an onslaught of hate speech against minorities and the vulnerable, resulting in the inevitable upsurge of far right terrorism like Christchurch last week.

Right-wing politics these days (and I don't include the vast majority of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in this as, while I'd never vote for them, they at least are rooted in some sort of moderation) is an intellectual black hole, a bankrupt sham that has no ideas other than to wallow in pathetic imagined victimhood.

To people who support this sort of crypto-fascism, the fascists are never the fascists, they are the victims, and anything to the left of this bankrupt cesspit of idiocy is "totalitarianism".

Orwellian doesn't even begin to explain it.

The notion that there is a problem with so called "left wing totalitarianism", like everything else in the make believe world of right-wing crypto-fascism, is a fantasy.

And remember, these people are never, ever here to debate, only to throw out lies. They're here to gaslight, to deliberately try to distort reality. This includes several posters on this thread.

Right-wing politics has given up the ghost in terms of cloaking its real self. Now that the rights of women, ethnic and racial minorities, gay and trans people etc. are pretty much enshrined, at least in Europe and in much of the developed world, the great pushback from the bigots has begun. And because there are literally no legitimate reasons whatsoever for a pushback on people's rights, only naked bigotry, obfuscation and disinformation can be used to achieve these insane objectives.

oscarBravo · 22-03-2019 9:51am

Ultros wrote: »

It's not just the US ( below twitter link )...

Ugh, what a stupid headline.

"...with knife crimes soaring across the UK, should every other crime be ignored completely?"

Wanderer78 · 22-03-2019 10:18am

Ultros wrote:

article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

And what is wrong with Marxism?

Brian? · 22-03-2019 10:28am

Ultros wrote: »

article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

]

80% of professors aren’t Marxist? The Marxist takeover is really going poorly.

You do realise how stupid it is to blather on about the takeover of academia by Marxists and then present this figure as some sort of proof?

Brian? · 22-03-2019 10:29am

Ultros wrote: »

If you think it's bad here ( it's really not even when you take into account 90% of posters are left wingers ), have a look at r/politics on reddit. It's a online liberal pac posing as a neutral political discussion forum.

Anything they consider negative or even neutral in tone is muted. At least the cesspool Trump forum is honest about what it is.

90% of the posters on boards or in the politics forum?

22-03-2019 10:35am

Ultros wrote: »

According to this article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

So 20% of pretty clever, well studied people in the area of Social Sciences think Marxism is a good idea?

Sure what would they know?
/Sarcasm

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-03-2019 11:34am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So 20% of pretty clever, well studied people in the area of Social Sciences think Marxism is a good idea?

Sure what would they know?
/Sarcasm

I’m not sure what you are being sarcastic about really. Arguments to credentialism don’t really work with the pseudo sciences. If 20% of well “studied people” in the social sciences think Marxism is a good idea then the social sciences are bunk. 100% of well studied philosophers in the Middle Ages believed in God but that’s what they studied.

It’s not confined to what’s commonly called the social sciences, economics is largely driven by ideology as well. Although there is, at least, a movement to empiricism in it.

markodaly · 22-03-2019 1:37pm

Brian? wrote: »

80% of professors aren’t Marxist? The Marxist takeover is really going poorly.

You do realise how stupid it is to blather on about the takeover of academia by Marxists and then present this figure as some sort of proof?

Would you be so blase if 20% of the professors identified as Fascists?

Both are extreme ideologies, yet one seems to be accepted while the other is rightly vilified

mcmoustache · 22-03-2019 1:44pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And what is wrong with Marxism?

To be fair, it's a garbage way to run a society when the population exceeds that of a village. The systems that have brought the most improvement to most people have used combinations of free markets alongside decent social policies funded by progressive taxation.

mcmoustache · 22-03-2019 1:47pm

Brian? wrote: »

90% of the posters on boards or in the politics forum?

The assumption is that if you're not a racist Trump supporter that you must be on the left. Even if you like free markets, fiscal responsibility and strong justice system.

markodaly · 22-03-2019 1:48pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Trump and Brexit are just the most obvious chaotic manifestations of it, but Brazil, India, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy and the Philippines etc.

India on that list, but no Turkey, Suadi Arabia, Iran... pretty much the entire Muslim world really. Not to forget the King daddy of them all, China's Xi Jinping who declared himself president for life last year.

Yes, some western governments are lurching to the populist right, as a response to economic factors (the rise of globalisation) and blaming it on record levels of migration.

Hillary Clinton stated that to curb the rise of the European right, countries should limit migration.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/22/hillary-clinton-europe-must-curb-immigration-stop-populists-trump-brexit

“I think Europe needs to get a handle on migration because that is what lit the flame,” Clinton said, speaking as part of a series of interviews with senior centrist political figures about the rise of populists, particularly on the right, in Europe and the Americas.

“I admire the very generous and compassionate approaches that were taken particularly by leaders like Angela Merkel, but I think it is fair to say Europe has done its part, and must send a very clear message – ‘we are not going to be able to continue provide refuge and support’ – because if we don’t deal with the migration issue it will continue to roil the body politic.”

Fancy that, a practical solution to stop this phenomenon. So the real question is, do you want to be virtuous, or do you want to stop the problem.

Wanderer78 · 22-03-2019 1:51pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

To be fair, it's a garbage way to run a society when the population exceeds that of a village. The systems that have brought the most improvement to most people have used combinations of free markets alongside decent social policies funded by progressive taxation.

i always love comments on Marxism, do people actually read up on what it means? id class my own understanding of Marxism as vague at best but, returning the means of production to the public doesnt sound half bad to me of course it has its limitations but...

markodaly · 22-03-2019 1:56pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i always love comments on Marxism, do people actually read up on what it means? id class my own understanding of Marxism as vague at best but, returning the means of production to the public doesnt sound half bad to me of course it has its limitations but...

That is the nail on the head.

It sounds lovely of course, that is the broad appeal. But when implemented, it's always famine, genocide, economic ruin, poverty, human rights abuses.

Now some will argue that it is never been implemented the correct way as if the 37th time of trying some nation will crack the code. :pac:

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta · 22-03-2019 1:57pm

Brian? wrote: »

90% of the posters on boards or in the politics forum?

We should do a poll to check. In reality, everyone has done that political compass test and nobody is truly "left" or "right"

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta · 22-03-2019 1:58pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i always love comments on Marxism, do people actually read up on what it means? id class my own understanding of Marxism as vague at best but, returning the means of production to the public doesnt sound half bad to me of course it has its limitations but...

But what does that actually mean in 2019?

You want public ownership of all car manufacturers?
What about Google? Is that "production"? Arguably it is.

James Brown · 22-03-2019 2:29pm

I think all most want is a fair and level playing field. Socialism is a dirty word in the U.S. because they picture the U.S.S.R.
In these systems we (dis)function in there are elements that will always be wealthy and be protected and aided in that wealth. Goldman Sachs is a good example.
Walmart is another example. Staff so poorly paid they need the US tax payer to subsidise them, while Walmart make a tidy profit. There's nothing free market about that IMO.

mcmoustache · 22-03-2019 2:33pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I think all most want is a fair and level playing field. Socialism is a dirty word in the U.S. because they picture the U.S.S.R.

Here in europe we're mostly social democracies. It's a pragmatic mishmash of capitalism and socialism and it works better than any single ideology that I've ever heard of.

James Brown · 22-03-2019 2:39pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Here in europe we're mostly social democracies. It's a pragmatic mishmash of capitalism and socialism and it works better than any single ideology that I've ever heard of.

Agreed. I think all systems are open to cute hoorism and sweet deals though. It's human nature sadly. The down side of course is a slew of parties so similar we get the same chancers time and again which in itself makes inappropriate behaviour easier to accomplish.
The Republicans and Democrats would have networks set up and ready to go once they get in I'd imagine.

I'd like to see the Democrats overhauled to give the U.S. a decent alternative.

Cordell · 22-03-2019 2:42pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And what is wrong with Marxism?

The fact that asking this question in a marxist regime will probably land you in jail as a reactionary element seeking to destabilize the society by seeding doubt.
That is, assuming that there will be a place where you can engage in this kind of debates.

Hobosan · 22-03-2019 3:08pm

"The perfect ideology is, 'Everybody Do What They Want'.

All we need is to overthrow the current system and setup up a new one which will strictly enforce this rule."

That's a condensed version of the Communist Manifesto.

Is Totalitarianism on the rise on The Left?

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