Is Totalitarianism on the rise on The Left?

manual_man

I honestly can't shake the feeling that it is. Now maybe it's just a feeling that will dissipate in a post-Trump era(whether in 2 or 6 years time), but The Left is freaking me the f*** out at present. The Left in the U.S. is almost unrecognisable to me now, compared to what it was, say, just 20 years ago.

What do we think? It is just a reaction to Trump and how opposition politicians and large portions of media are seeking to portray Trump for their own benefit?

At present it concerns me greatly the attacks on free speech (mostly coming from The Left) - the reluctance to have difficult but necessary discussions, the regular appeal to "emotion", rather than concentrating on fact. Also it seems to me that The Left is cynically targeting children more and more looking to use them as political weapons/pawns. I have a bad feeling. I can't shake the feeling that Totalitarianism is on the rise on The Left and it could lead to something bad.

Please discuss.

And please no personal attacks in this thread, to me or anyone else. Thanks.

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Yes, it is.

It's a feeling I've been getting over the last few months since Covington. Without facts, that was a perfectly political thing to talk about in the Trump thread. Once the truth came out, it was deemed off-topic nuking a much needed conversation about the left's behaviour. Disgusting posters in that thread wanted to doxx those teenager boys and instead of bans, they got thanks. Vile. Others said after the fact that even though they were innocent, they deserved what they got because they were wearing MAGA.
Where was the left's condemnation of the racism teenagers suffered at the hands of adults? Nowhere to be seen. It's the wrong type.

The left attacked everyone who doubted the Jussie Smollett story, even though it was comical. Truth comes out? Ignore.

Australia banning right-leaning sites for containing links to content, but not the left-leaning sites actually hosting it. The left cheers it on. Almost all sharing of that video was done on WhatsApp, Messenger, Facebook groups, Viber etc. But we like those sites, I guess.


There is a total disregard for the notion of free speech. Someone says something you don't like? "Ban. They can just use another site. Also, ban those sites."

Everyone thought it would be the right who brought about 1984. It's the left. This isn't hyperbole. People's lives are being ruined because of wrong think. It's the societal issue I care most about now.

sameoldname

If you're worried about totalitarianism coming from the left and you're not seeing the exact same stuff coming from the right, then you're part of the problem.

Everything is now dominated by the extremists and the people who can see both sides (i.e. the centrists) are completely ignored.

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sameoldname wrote: »

If you're worried about totalitarianism coming from the left and you're not seeing the exact same stuff coming from the right, then you're part of the problem.

Everything is now dominated by the extremists and the people who can see both sides (i.e. the centrists) are completely ignored.

The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

listermint

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The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

You and a prime example of his point frankly.

I've read your contributions to threads all over the site.

You refuse to acknowledge a really hard right wing streak that's over taking various countries.

So it's ironic you are slinging accusations at other posters

sameoldname

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The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

Easily outraged: Both extreme left and right.
Ignores facts: Extreme left and right.
Judgement before evidence: Extreme left and right.
Emotional arguments: Extreme left and right.
More interested in winning than being correct: Extreme left and right.
Hates people who don't agree with them: Extreme left and right.
Persecution complex: Extreme left and right.
Closer to each other than to the rest of us: Extreme left and right.
Absolute belief that they are correct: Extreme left and right.
Yada, yada, yada...

Hobosan

Totalitarianism couldn't possibly rise any further in the United States. They have absolutely perfected it. You can't improve perfection. It's absolutely beautiful what they have achieved.

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listermint wrote: »

You and a prime example of his point frankly.

I've read your contributions to threads all over the site.

You refuse to acknowledge a really hard right wing streak that's over taking various countries.

So it's ironic you are slinging accusations at other posters

I refuse to acknowledge it about Ireland and this site, not other countries where it may or may not be happening.

Basically, your talk of Russian bots largely coincided with the closure of politics.ie, which had a more right-leaning userbase. What you call a rise, I call a site change.

The vast majority of regular people don't care enough to get into discussions on Islam for example, but regular people still vastly outnumber those right / alt-right posters in every thread on here, the people who will always post in those threads. I find it pretty damn odd that anyone could argue that the right are taking over, when that is taken into account.

It's the reason for Casey's polling on here being twice that of the national vote. SNIP. Everyone else realises that not everyone voted in the poll. The majority of people just don't care and scroll past.

A lot more is needed before I'll accept that there is some worrying shift happening in Ireland.

sameoldname wrote: »

Easily outraged: Both extreme left and right.
Ignores facts: Extreme left and right.
Judgement before evidence: Extreme left and right.
Emotional arguments: Extreme left and right.
More interested in winning than being correct: Extreme left and right.
Hates people who don't agree with them: Extreme left and right.
Persecution complex: Extreme left and right.
Closer to each other than to the rest of us: Extreme left and right.
Absolute belief that they are correct: Extreme left and right.
Yada, yada, yada...

I agree with everything you just posted, but it's all just a description of extremism.

This thread is about totalitarianism. It's about silencing people, or about ruining people who don't agree with you. Instead of it being a state as its defined, it's about an ideology.

People don't lose their jobs or friends because they're a Democrat. People aren't afraid to wear an "I'm with her." cap. Posters don't create alt accounts to share their left-leaning views, lest their main account becomes hated.

There is a silent base of right-leaning regular folk who are afraid of the consequences of making their voices heard. In offices, do you hear the left or the right talking politics? Because in my teacher's room, the Trump-voter is silent, and none of the new teachers are even aware of his views. Basically, there can be severe repercussions for being on the right.

And recently, there is a definite surge in the right being removed off the internet, or demonitized, since all the main services are left-leaning. This is the part that worries me. I hate censorship. I hate companies with leanings have so much power of social discourse. It's really quite annoying that so many people support it because of the short-term joy of echo-chambers.


There is only one debate here really. Is the left preventing the right from having their voices heard? I think it's a definite yes. If you think it's a no, and you want to argue that the right can share their opinions just like the left, you're free to do so. But I'd challenge you to claim you like Trump within earshot of your boss.

ancapailldorcha

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The exact same thing? You absolute liar. No shame at all. Just complete lies.

Banned.

Nody

Hobosan wrote: »

Totalitarianism couldn't possibly rise any further in the United States. They have absolutely perfected it. You can't improve perfection. It's absolutely beautiful what they have achieved.

Sorry but this is complete BS; it may the in thing to claim that US is totalitarian due to Trump but it's far from the truth. How about you actually speak with a living person who lived under for example communism? Did you know for example they have guard towers in the farms because during the communist era they had soldiers stationed there to shot anyone trying to steal the produce (since all produce was the state's property even if the working class went hungry)? Or ask them how they got assigned, not choose, their educational path and what work they were going to do. I have; my father in law wanted to become a doctor but the state decided in his second year that he should be a dentist instead as they were low on them that year. They assigned him an apartment in the city he was to work and he was not allowed to move from it; same with the car etc. That is totalitarianism, not what's in the USA currently (though they are working towards it).

Wanderer78

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It's the reason for Casey's polling on here being twice that of the national vote. SNIP. Everyone else realises that not everyone voted in the poll. The majority of people just don't care and scroll past.

To be fair, casey's overall 'success' shows there's an opening for populism in Irish politics, which I think might rare it's ugly head again soon. On that matter, he must be busy sorting out his Irish tax affairs, he's gone rather quite!

Brian?

What "left" in the US? Bernie Sanders and so on?

Brian?

manual_man wrote: »

I honestly can't shake the feeling that it is. Now maybe it's just a feeling that will dissipate in a post-Trump era(whether in 2 or 6 years time), but The Left is freaking me the f*** out at present. The Left in the U.S. is almost unrecognisable to me now, compared to what it was, say, just 20 years ago.

Freaking you out, why? What has changed about them?

I would propose that there was no left wing alternative in the US 20 years ago. Now we have a small group with progressive idea actually getting elected. Even then, they are pretty much in lone with European moderates politically.

Unless you're talking about the identity politics brigade. They're not really a political force in any real way and are used as a bogeyman by the right.

What do we think? It is just a reaction to Trump and how opposition politicians and large portions of media are seeking to portray Trump for their own benefit?

At present it concerns me greatly the attacks on free speech (mostly coming from The Left) - the reluctance to have difficult but necessary discussions, the regular appeal to "emotion", rather than concentrating on fact. Also it seems to me that The Left is cynically targeting children more and more looking to use them as political weapons/pawns. I have a bad feeling. I can't shake the feeling that Totalitarianism is on the rise on The Left and it could lead to something bad.

Please discuss.

And please no personal attacks in this thread, to me or anyone else. Thanks.

I'm not trying to insult, but you don't seem to know what Totalitarianism is.

I'd like to know who exactly you're referring to when you say "The left". It would make the discussion a lot easier.

Chips Lovell

You appear to have misunderstood what totalitarianism means:

Totalitarianism is a political concept of a mode of government that prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life. It is regarded as the most extreme and complete form of authoritarianism.

The U.S. doesn't have a left wing government, let alone a totalitarian left wing government. The closest they've come to a left wing government was probably FDR.

hill16bhoy

manual_man wrote: »

I honestly can't shake the feeling that it is. Now maybe it's just a feeling that will dissipate in a post-Trump era(whether in 2 or 6 years time), but The Left is freaking me the f*** out at present. The Left in the U.S. is almost unrecognisable to me now, compared to what it was, say, just 20 years ago.

manual_man wrote: »

At present it concerns me greatly the attacks on free speech (mostly coming from The Left) - the reluctance to have difficult but necessary discussions, the regular appeal to "emotion", rather than concentrating on fact. Also it seems to me that The Left is cynically targeting children more and more looking to use them as political weapons/pawns. I have a bad feeling. I can't shake the feeling that Totalitarianism is on the rise on The Left and it could lead to something bad.

This post is a satire of the standard fact-free bluster we hear constantly from reactionary right-wingers, right?

Or am I giving you far too much credit?

manual_man

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

You appear to have misunderstood what totalitarianism means:



The U.S. doesn't have a left wing government, let alone a totalitarian left wing government. The closest they've come to a left wing government was probably FDR.

I misunderstood nothing. I expressed my concern that it is on the rise on The Left. Being on the rise, and Totalitarian government control are not the same thing. But nor are they mutually exclusive. The former is what can lead to the latter. Which is my concern. Thanks.

seamus

Can you give some examples of this totalitarianism from the Left (with a capital L).

And I mean statements and actions from politicians and organisations, not left-leaning articles in media or screaming hysteria from some random person on Twitter.

Chips Lovell

manual_man wrote: »

I misunderstood nothing. I expressed my concern that it is on the rise on The Left. Being on the rise, and Totalitarian government control are not the same thing. But nor are they mutually exclusive. The former is what can lead to the latter. Which is my concern. Thanks.

Is there anyone actually advocating totalitarian government in the U.S. though? Left wing politics is very much a minority sport in that country and if there are any leftwingers advocating totalitarianism, they've a long way to go before it becomes worrying.

oscarBravo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

To be fair, casey's overall 'success' shows there's an opening for populism in Irish politics, which I think might rare it's ugly head again soon. On that matter, he must be busy sorting out his Irish tax affairs, he's gone rather quite!

Last seen wittering on about how 5G wireless would make fibre obsolete. In other words, celebrating his ignorance publicly. Again.

Danzy

Unfortunately yes.

There is a growing ultra confirmism on the Left.

One can look at past tendencies to it but it seems more apt to view it in terms of religious fundamentalism.

People aren't just wrong but viewed as vile sinners, they are as quick to hunt each other as opponents and there is an overwhelming stink of righteousness.

The Left is profoundly broken.

hill16bhoy

Danzy wrote: »

Unfortunately yes.

There is a growing ultra confirmism on the Left.

One can look at past tendencies to it but it seems more apt to view it in terms of religious fundamentalism.

People aren't just wrong but viewed as vile sinners, they are as quick to hunt each other as opponents and there is an overwhelming stink of righteousness.

The Left is profoundly broken.

I know this isn't satire but it really should be.

mcmoustache

Assuming that this isn't a wind-up, the closest thing that I can imagine as being a potential left-wing totalitarian regime under the right circumstances in this free market EU that we live in would be a hypothetical Corbyn-lead Labour government. He strikes me as a closet communist if not a fully out communist.

Fortunately, I don't think Corbyn would be able to sell communism to the party, let alone to the public unless something happens in the UK that leads to an economic disaster that ends in some kind of workers' revolt. I guess we'll have to see how the Strong and Stable right-wing government navigates Brexit - they seem confident that it'll be great and there's even a slim possibility that they know what they're doing and aren't participating in some kind of crazy mass delusion... a slim possibility.

In other countries in europe, I can't think of any left-wing, let alone totalitarian governments. Maybe Belarus but it's been around for a while and hasn't really risen or fallen in years. It might get absorbed into Russia in the near future. Most of the rest of europe, particularly in the EU seems to favour free markets and discourages state ownership of the means of production. That's the opposite of left wing.

Unless of course, as seamus has suggested, the OP considers the presence of some shrieking gender-fluid, pink-haired bearded person in a dress on twitter to be left-wing totalitarianism. Then I guess, yes you could say that left-wing totalitarianism is on the rise but you need to redefine words to mean something else. It's a bit like saying that faeces taste delicious if you redefine the word "faeces" to mean marmite or something.

The problem is that if you just start redefining words to mean whatever you want them to mean that you'll start to sound bonkers.

Brian?

manual_man wrote: »

I misunderstood nothing. I expressed my concern that it is on the rise on The Left. Being on the rise, and Totalitarian government control are not the same thing. But nor are they mutually exclusive. The former is what can lead to the latter. Which is my concern. Thanks.

I'll politely ask again. Who do you mean when you say "The Left"?

I want to double check against the roll take at our last bi monthly meeting. You see we all agreed to not be totalitarian last year, we finally talked the Stalinists around. They were both very upset. The other 2.84 billion of us thought it was time though.

osarusan

sameoldname wrote: »

Easily outraged: Both extreme left and right.
Ignores facts: Extreme left and right.
Judgement before evidence: Extreme left and right.
Emotional arguments: Extreme left and right.
More interested in winning than being correct: Extreme left and right.
Hates people who don't agree with them: Extreme left and right.
Persecution complex: Extreme left and right.
Closer to each other than to the rest of us: Extreme left and right.
Absolute belief that they are correct: Extreme left and right.
Yada, yada, yada...

Add to this a tendency to add 'serious' labels to arguments, in an attempt to validate them.


Terms like 'free speech', 'misogyny', 'censorship', 'racism' are just slung around with ridiculous casualness at anything people don't like. Because those are real terms about serious things, and if a person can somehow pretend that their argument aligns with one of them, it also becomes a real thing, a serious thing.


The word 'totalitarianism' in this thread is a good example of that.

Billy Mays

Hang on, this thread is about the USA? Totalitarianism on the rise on the left in the USA??!!


F*cking hell, you need to take a closer look at the White House if you're looking for totalitarianism on the rise in the USA ffs.

mcmoustache

Billy Mays wrote: »

Hang on, this thread is about the USA? Totalitarianism on the rise on the left in the USA??!!

If you define as leftwing totalitarianism as "some insufferable gob****e on twitter going on about the patriarchy all the time", then I guess you could.

But that's the thing about words. They mean things and using them the wrong way is just confusing.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Brian? wrote: »

What "left" in the US? Bernie Sanders and so on?

The American left I assume. Largely identity politics driven. Influences here a lot as well.

Is this left wing the same as old school socialism, labour unions etc. No, often it has quite different aims. But it’s generally regarded as left rather than right.

Your argument is a form of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Brian?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The American left I assume. Largely identity politics driven. Influences here a lot as well.

Is this left wing the same as old school socialism, labour unions etc. No, often it has quite different aims. But it’s generally regarded as left rather than right.

Your argument is a form of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

What argument? I am waiting for an answer from the OP on who he's on about. I'll play the Scotsman card then if needed.

mcmoustache

And I'd still like to hear where this totalitarianism from the left is. The OP might have just been confused about the meaning of words but I wouldn't mind having that clarified.

Ultros

It's not just the US ( below twitter link ), and it's not the right who are pushing such insanity. You talk about children being victims and I totally agree, what they pushing on these toddlers is child abuse and the activists along with crux of the media are happy to go along with it, as are the politicians out of fear. There's a mob mentality at play when it comes to the identity politics among other things.

Far left ideology or whatever you want to call it has utterly taken over college campuses and faculties in the US. Outgoing kids go to college for a few years and come out as angry, mad at the world activists. Forget the media and silicon valley. According to this article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1108253119421562880

Ultros

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Once the truth came out, it was deemed off-topic nuking a much needed conversation

If you think it's bad here ( it's really not even when you take into account 90% of posters are left wingers ), have a look at r/politics on reddit. It's a online liberal pac posing as a neutral political discussion forum.

Anything they consider negative or even neutral in tone is muted. At least the cesspool Trump forum is honest about what it is.