Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.

Madeleine McCann

1120121123125126264

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    It’s not one dog though, is it? It’s 2 dogs. 2 very well trained dogs. 2 very well trained dogs that searched 9 other cars and didn’t signal. But did signal at the boot of Kate and Gerry’s car.
    Well the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The job of the dogs is to indicate the presence of forensic evidence. But in all cases where the dogs indicated, no evidence was found, despite various samples being collected and tested.

    And btw - the dogs don't corroborate each other - they are each trained for very different purposes.
    Also, Kate and Gerry weren’t suspects for a few months. There wasn’t constant media and police watching them. Sure they were able to play tennis without any hassle. The media really increased when they became suspects.
    There was a rush of media to Luz from the moment the story broke - the idea that they could have moved a body after 25 days is fanciful.
    (And the reason you know that Gerry McCann played tennis, is because that very same media told you this).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Anything is possible sometimes its easier to do get away with something that seems it would be to obvious

    I think the questions is why of all the cars did the dog bark at that one, that very strange if you ask me,

    Have you watched the videos of the dogs? They go right past the car and Grimes has to signal to them which is the right car to bark at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    It's all well and good to believe a theory, but quite another to attach a viable series of events in which your theory could have occurred. There's very little chance that the parents could have done it given the timeline, their demeanor directly after the supposed incident and the fact she's never been found. IMO. I've still to hear a viable theory yet.

    4 hours passed from when Maddie was last seen by someone outside the McCanns to when the alarm was raised , that's plenty of time,

    The timeline given by the parents and tapas friends changed numerous times and to this day doesn't make sense, i'm not saying they conspired but the time line is worng ,

    Jane mentioned in front of Gerry and Gerry nodded Kate said "Gerry was gone ages probably watching the football " never mentioned again by the McCanns or Jane

    There are holes every where In the story,
    I don't think the Tapas 7 meant any harm or where in on it but could easy have decided to slightly change the time line to protect there friends who they seen as innocent and just lost a child , They wouldn't want the public to see them as bad parents,

    But once the story was told there was no going back, probably why non have ever given interviews since,





    ,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    I
    What are the chances the McCann's rent a villa someone else died in and it wasn't reported ?
    As pointed out elsewhere, the dogs don't necessarily indicate that someone died at that spot - the indication could have come from material that was at that spot that had also previously been in proximity with a cadaver.
    What are the chances the dog barks at Maddies favourite toy and it was in a press ?
    What are the chances the dog barks at an item of Maddies clothing when loads of clothes are laid out n a room

    Now after all that the McCanns go and rent a car and out of 7 cars the dog goes and barks at there car ,
    The problem with the dogs is that we don't know what the chances of false positives are because, as the dog handler said himself, the science isn't well understood.
    That's why the indications from the dogs aren't used as evidence; they are just a tool to direct investigators where to look. And when they looked, they found no evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭maximoose


    Phoebas wrote: »
    And when they looked, they found no evidence.

    They did find evidence, but it was inconclusive.

    I'm Paraphrasing but in the new doc Grimes says he believes the technology will eventually catch up and prove the dogs were right.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    Phoebas wrote: »
    Doesn't this just render the indications from the dog more and more unreliable?
    For a start, neither of the dogs are trained to identify either the blood or the cadaver of Madeline McCann - they are trained to identify either the blood or the cadaver of any person.

    So, if we are to rely on the dog that indicated after 25 days in the car, all that dog is indicating is that at some unspecified time in the past, some unspecified material that that come into contact with human tissue had come into contact with the boot of the car.

    Doesn't point to anything substantial really, does it?

    So some corpse that was not that of Madeline McCann came into contact with the McCann's rent a car, the McCann's apartment and Madeline McCann's favourite cuddly toy, by chance.


  • Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Something Else
    Phoebas wrote: »
    As pointed out elsewhere, the dogs don't necessarily indicate that someone died at that spot - the indication could have come from material that was at that spot that had also previously been in proximity with a cadaver.


    The problem with the dogs is that we don't know what the chances of false positives are because, as the dog handler said himself, the science isn't well understood.
    That's why the indications from the dogs aren't used as evidence; they are just a tool to direct investigators where to look. And when they looked, they found no evidence.

    And thats the exact problem with this case. If she died accidentally and they hid the body, what evidence would there be? There won't be a bloody weapon just left lying in the apartment or car. They weren't stupid enough to just leave the corpse lying around.

    Without a body, all you have is scents and DNA. Both highly complex areas.

    The dogs pointed the detectives to the correct areas. But the main incriminating evidence was not there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    maximoose wrote: »
    They did find evidence, but it was inconclusive.
    If you remember what actually happened with the evidence that came back from the UK lab - an early initial report came back witch showed various matches, and the report made it clear that it wasn't conclusive and they should wait for the full report.
    The police leaked this report - without the caveats.

    The full report concluded that there was no match.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    So some corpse that was not that of Madeline McCann came into contact with the McCann's rent a car, the McCann's apartment and Madeline McCann's favourite cuddly toy, by chance.

    Not to be ruled out, given the occupation of both of the parents
    The second error was that when 'cadaver dogs' smelled the scent of death in the apartment where Madeleine disappeared, detectives did not take into account that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    cnocbui wrote: »
    This abductor evidence -what form do you expect it to take - a conveniently dropped phone or wallet easily traced back to the perpetrator?
    marks of some kind, gloved or otherwise. Shoe prints on the floor, window ledge or bed, marks of any kind left by anyone other than Kate and Gerry McCann.
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Here is a scenario: He/she put's on gloves, they look around for any possible witnesses - they open the door and go in, leaving it open - they go into the bedroom and carefully move the covers and carefully pick Madeline up. They walk out of the door and close it then walk around to the car park at the back of the apartment and put her in the car and drive away.

    Then Kate McCann discovers the scene, tampers with the window ans cleans the window handle while the other two are asleep, tucks the curtains back in behind the bed then leaves the apartment shouting for help, leaving the twins in the fresh crime scene, sleeping from their tiring day,


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Thread ban for Plumbthedepths has been lifted following PM discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    Phoebas wrote: »
    Not to be ruled out, given the occupation of both of the parents

    A GP and an anesthetist come into regular contact with corpses? would have the same clothes on them when they were on holiday also? These clothes gained no reaction from the dog when going through the luggage. That definitely didn't happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    marks of some kind, gloved or otherwise. Shoe prints on the floor, window ledge or bed, marks of any kind left by anyone other than Kate and Gerry McCann.



    Then Kate McCann discovers the scene, tampers with the window ans cleans the window handle while the other two are asleep, tucks the curtains back in behind the bed then leaves the apartment shouting for help, leaving the twins in the fresh crime scene, sleeping from their tiring day,

    Marks? What sort? I wear gloves in winter and they don't leave any marks on anything. Why would you expect foot prints given the hard flooring, the Policia J not showing up for 90 minutes and the crime scene being totally compromised by hoards of people looking for Madeleine and then not being sealed, even when the PJ did finally show up?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    A GP and an anesthetist come into regular contact with corpses? would have the same clothes on them when they were on holiday also? These clothes gained no reaction from the dog when going through the luggage. That definitely didn't happen.

    That's a blanket dismissal without knowing what exactly the dogs were indicating.

    What we do know is that the indications from the dogs was not corroborated by actual evidence, despite several samples being collected and tested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    A GP and an anesthetist come into regular contact with corpses? would have the same clothes on them when they were on holiday also? These clothes gained no reaction from the dog when going through the luggage. That definitely didn't happen.


    GP and Cardiologist. There were reports that Kate came into contact with at least half a dozen corpses in the weeks prior to the holiday.


    Whatever the case, I personally don't believe that's a viable theory.


  • Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Something Else
    cgcsb wrote: »
    A GP and an anesthetist come into regular contact with corpses? would have the same clothes on them when they were on holiday also? These clothes gained no reaction from the dog when going through the luggage. That definitely didn't happen.

    Not to mention the other tapas 7 were mostly in the medical field. The dogs didn't signal in their apartments or cars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Marks? What sort? I wear gloves in winter and they don't leave any marks on anything.
    That you can see with the naked eye you mean? or do you carry out forensics on things you touch?
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Why would you expect foot prints given the hard flooring, the Policia J not showing up for 90 minutes and the crime scene being totally compromised by hoards of people looking for Madeleine and then not being sealed, even when the PJ did finally show up?

    Everyone leaves footprints. Get everyone that was there that night to provide their footware to exclude them would have been a good start in debunking the intruder theory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Not to mention the other tapas 7 were mostly in the medical field. The dogs didn't signal in their apartments or cars.


    Were their apartments and cars searched?


  • Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Something Else
    Phoebas wrote: »
    That's a blanket dismissal without knowing what exactly the dogs were indicating.

    What we do know is that the indications from the dogs was not corroborated by actual evidence, despite several samples being collected and tested.

    That doesn't make them innocent. It just means its impossible to convict them.

    The dogs were all over those 2 areas out of the many areas they searched. Evidence was found but not conclusive.

    Its basically a case of we know they are guilty but can't prove it.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Were their apartments and cars searched?
    all the cars were put in an underground car park well spaced out from each other. The dog just indicated on the McCann's rental.


    But, the suspicious thing is that the handler, who normally stands back waiting for a bark, approached the car and tapped on it.


    Not sure about the apartments.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cnocbui wrote:
    Marks? What sort? I wear gloves in winter and they don't leave any marks on anything. Why would you expect foot prints given the hard flooring, the Policia J not showing up for 90 minutes and the crime scene being totally compromised by hoards of people looking for Madeleine and then not being sealed, even when the PJ did finally show up?


    The Guardian carried a timeline of 10 pm Kate raises the alarm, local Police called at 10.15 pm arrival at 10.30pm( busy holiday resort) detectives from the PJ arrive at 11.10pm. Where is the 90 minutes coming from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Its basically a case of we know they are guilty but can't prove it.

    Sure, who needs evidence anyway!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Phoebas wrote: »
    Sure, who needs evidence anyway!!!


    If you know, you know....case closed!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    all the cars were put in an underground car park well spaced out from each other. The dog just indicated on the McCann's rental.


    But, the suspicious thing is that the handler, who normally stands back waiting for a bark, approached the car and tapped on it.


    Not sure about the apartments.


    Yeah, I was really replying to the statement that the dogs never indicated the other Tapas 7's apartments/ cars. I wondered had they been searched in the first place?


    I agree the handler did appear to bring the dogs back to the rental car after they initially ignored it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭Greasy Tool


    Something Else
    Richard D Hall has done some good research on this case . You'll find his vids on youtube .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    It is a valid point, the identity of a killer has been known in several high profile cases down through the years but gathering the evidence that will satisfy a court of law has not always being possible. Recent example is the Bloody Sunday killings of '72 in NI. Only one out of an identified 18 will face a courtroom.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    The window from which the break in was staged was up very high from the pavement:

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@37.0886736,-8.7307093,3a,75y,263.36h,88.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbKxQmlYs8JTNrdg-oSQ-dA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    Did the abductor use a ladder? Would he need two hands to hold the child? was there somebody else holding the ladder? And the people in the apartments across the street and the cars passing by saw nothing? how can this theory be taken seriously?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭98q76e12hrflnk


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    all the cars were put in an underground car park well spaced out from each other. The dog just indicated on the McCann's rental.


    But, the suspicious thing is that the handler, who normally stands back waiting for a bark, approached the car and tapped on it.


    Not sure about the apartments.

    I was watching the documentary and noticed the same thing except with the apartment. The dog walks around and away around the bed then the handler taps a spot on the bed where the dog had just been and the dog goes back and starts barking. Thought was a bit suspicious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cgcsb wrote:
    Did the abductor use a ladder? Would he need two hands to hold the child? was there somebody else holding the ladder? And the people in the apartments across the street and the cars passing by saw nothing? how can this theory be taken seriously?


    Since it was admitted that the door was left open for convenience of checking the children I can't see why the window was ever suggested other than a diversion and not a well thought out one either.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Yeah, I was really replying to the statement that the dogs never indicated the other Tapas 7's apartments/ cars. I wondered had they been searched in the first place?
    Doubtful. We know that the McCann's car and Robert Murat's car was included, but the car search took place 3 months after the disappearance.
    I don't know how long the 7 hung around Luz for.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement