Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

badtoro · 19-03-2019 09:45PM

Infini wrote: »

badtoro wrote: »

To my mind revocation of A50 and the UK remaining an EU member is the worst outcome here. It's clear to the world from the antics of the past 2+ years is that key parts of that country are badly broken. Their education system, their meeja, and their politics. Neither do I wish to see UK MEP's elected to the EP. It would all result in so much more toxic, nonsensical, time wasting blather. We need to return focus to what's good for members who wish to be members.

It wouldnt be the worst outcome thats the crashout scenario. It wouldn't be ideal either but the conservatives created and owned this mess and it's likely they'll be out of government come the next election as this was all their creation and fault to begin with or its a hung parliment again. Regardless it will give those in the UK who still have common sense the impetus to take on these headbangers and try and prevent a repeat of this. Idiots rarely get a 2nd chance to cause a mess like this.

I understand but disagree on which is worse, as if the UK continued to be a member due to revocation of A50 there could be incredible disruption and distraction internally. I see an unhappy UK led by or as influenced as it is today by the Brexit cheerleaders as a threat inside the EU. I would prefer them as a third party outside the tent and let them fix their own issues or not. At least then the EU can reduce the time spent on this farce and focus on real problems like debt and external threats to the East.

RickBlaine · 19-03-2019 09:46PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Your wrong...they cant decide how to start it....

They are probably still arguing over the font to use.

Laois_Man · 19-03-2019 09:47PM

I'm half convinced this letter will be intentionally designed as one to be rejected, then either WA goes thru or the UK has the default hard Brexit and May gets to blame Bercow and the EU

Professor Moriarty · 19-03-2019 09:51PM

badtoro wrote: »

I understand but disagree on which is worse, as if the UK continued to be a member due to revocation of A50 there could be incredible disruption and distraction internally. I see an unhappy UK led by or as influenced as it is today by the Brexit cheerleaders as a threat inside the EU. I would prefer them as a third party outside the tent and let them fix their own issues or not. At least then the EU can reduce the time spent on this farce and focus on real problems like debt and external threats to the East.

I wonder if Tusk's visit today was to reassure Ireland and to explain how we will be supported when the UK doesn't get its extension.

Capt'n Midnight · 19-03-2019 09:53PM

Igotadose wrote: »

What, no agreement yet with the Duchy of Fenwick?!

It's the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

They had a plan to declare war on the USA, get defeated and so become a recipient of the Marshal Aid Plan.

So unlike the UK they had a achievable plan with definite end goals within a realistic time frame. And the overwhelming support of the people.

And they still screwed up the plan.

In reality look at the deal with the Faroe Islands or Chile to see how the UK has already rolled over to a micro-nation and wine exporting country.

badtoro · 19-03-2019 10:01PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

badtoro wrote: »

I understand but disagree on which is worse, as if the UK continued to be a member due to revocation of A50 there could be incredible disruption and distraction internally. I see an unhappy UK led by or as influenced as it is today by the Brexit cheerleaders as a threat inside the EU. I would prefer them as a third party outside the tent and let them fix their own issues or not. At least then the EU can reduce the time spent on this farce and focus on real problems like debt and external threats to the East.

I wonder if Tusk's visit today was to reassure Ireland and to explain how we will be supported when the UK doesn't get its extension.

Don't know, but either way I hope the EU puts it's money where it's mouth is if we need it.

Water John · 19-03-2019 10:11PM

Rather than having to revoke Art 50 at the last minute to prevent Crash Out Brexit, TM has one better option for her on the table. Have her Deal passed by the HOC subject to a Ref.
In that case, it would be the people who might have in effect revoked Art 50 not the Govn't.
I'm sure some way can be found around Bercow's ruling if that is an impediment to a decision o the matter.

Inquitus · 19-03-2019 10:14PM

Water John wrote: »

Rather than having to revoke Art 50 at the last minute to prevent Crash Out Brexit, TM has one better option for her on the table. Have her Deal passed by the HOC subject to a Ref.
In that case, it would be the people who might have in effect revoked Art 50 not the Govn't.
I'm sure some way can be found around Bercow's ruling if that is an impediment to a decision o the matter.

Tacking a referendum onto the bill would substantially change it per Bercow's guidance and it then would certainly be allowed to a vote.

Frank Bullitt · 19-03-2019 10:17PM

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1108101718263451651

19-03-2019 10:37PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

You're wrong...they cant decide how to start it....

Maybe this will help them.

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/sample-letter-to-ask-for-job-back-2059491

Anyway, don't they have until Thursday morning to submit the letter.

An Ciarraioch · 19-03-2019 10:51PM

http://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1108113870546223104

Of course, the call of the yellowhammer has been phonetically rendered as "a-little-bit-of-bread-and-no-cheese"!

Kermit.de.frog · 19-03-2019 10:55PM

UK economy looking strong with unemployment falling below 4% stats showed today.

More economic ammunition for the Brexiters.

Brexit not having any real negative effect on the numbers so far.

SCOOP 64 · 19-03-2019 10:59PM

I suppose they will use registered post being a important letter.

fly_agaric · 19-03-2019 11:11PM

Igotadose wrote: »

All sorts of rumours out there as to who might end up as UK MEP's - Farage, Yaxley-whateverhisnameis, ... Might make for interesting times at the EU Parliament.

Sound like a total disaster to me.
The next parliament could a toilet full of detritus sent by the UK in a fit of rage just before it leaves teaming up with Putin's Little Helpers from the various stupid & corrupt right wing parties that are increasing in popularity around Europe.

Edit...I suppose if the remain tending voters get quite organised & turn out in force a very "schizophrenic" set of UK MEPs could be returned (more pro EU types than sent by the UK previously perhaps mixed with more extreme hard Brexit nutjobs!)

road_high · 19-03-2019 11:11PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

UK economy looking strong with unemployment falling below 4% stats showed today.

More economic ammunition for the Brexiters.

Brexit not having any real negative effect on the numbers so far.

On the surface yes...but an awful lot of these “new jobs” are low productivity low paid jobs-as business don’t want to make huge investment in capital and infrastructure so just hire low paid staff to do the work instead.

recedite · 19-03-2019 11:21PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wonder if Tusk's visit today was to reassure Ireland and to explain how we will be supported when the UK doesn't get its extension.

Tusk tweeted that he "discussed latest developments and uncertain political situation in London as well as preparedness for a no-deal brexit."

He went to Dublin straight from meetings with Merkel and Macron, so I'd say he was sent to register their displeasure with the situation.
At the end of the day, this pair hold the real power in the EU.

Leroy42 · 19-03-2019 11:31PM

So France and Germany hold the power?

Why is nobody asking how the UK, one of the biggest economies in the world, allowed itself to be so utterly outmanovered with the EU by these and how that portrays how they will find themselves against the likes of the USA and China.

road_high · 19-03-2019 11:39PM

recedite wrote: »

Tusk tweeted that he "discussed latest developments and uncertain political situation in London as well as preparedness for a no-deal brexit."

He went to Dublin straight from meetings with Merkel and Macron, so I'd say he was sent to register their displeasure with the situation.
At the end of the day, this pair hold the real power in the EU.

So the Franco German line is that something substantial must be on the table to allow any extension?

Inquitus · 19-03-2019 11:43PM

road_high wrote: »

So the Franco German line is that something substantial must be on the table to allow any extension?

Watching Newsnight it seems a short extension until 21st May is the best and final offer at this point, which would boil down to May's deal or No deal. There will not be an either or option i.e. short and long. This is unless May comes up with something significant i.e. GE or Referendum that would justify a longer extension. EU representative exasperated in the interview, mind you the BBC were asking her how the EU could fix this :rollseyes:

Russman · 19-03-2019 11:48PM

Inquitus wrote: »

EU representative exasperated in the interview, mind you the BBC were asking her how the EU could fix this :rollseyes:

Was just watching that. How the girl from the EU kept her cool and didn’t say what she was clearly thinking is beyond me ! I think the BBC’s line of questioning is indicative of the whole mess tbh, a refusal or unwillingness to see reality.

Headshot · 19-03-2019 11:49PM

The conservative on Newsnight is getting destroyed lol

Inquitus · 19-03-2019 11:49PM

Headshot wrote: »

The conservative on Newsnight is getting destroyed lol

Aye, well to be fair, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on lol!

Roger_007 · 19-03-2019 11:50PM

Headshot wrote: »

The conservative on Newsnight is getting destroyed lol

Wasn't he the guy who was described as the worst government minister ever?

Russman · 19-03-2019 11:52PM

Headshot wrote: »

The conservative on Newsnight is getting destroyed lol

And he still keeps coming back to the whole EU needing to be flexible if it wants a deal thing. As good as said TM doesn’t need to change anything, it needs everyone else to be flexible.
The mind boggles.

recedite · 19-03-2019 11:57PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So France and Germany hold the power?

Why is nobody asking how the UK, one of the biggest economies in the world, allowed itself to be so utterly outmanovered with the EU by these and how that portrays how they will find themselves against the likes of the USA and China.

There's 2 main problems hindering Brexit.

1. PM May is a weak leader, and one who originally campaigned for Remain in the referendum. They sensed that in Brussels. The UK needed a strong decisive leader to pull it off, and one who actually believed in what they were doing.

2. The game has been rigged. The EU set the rules such that a country cannot leave the EU without first agreeing to concessions. That prevents any member state from leaving in an orderly way. The UK just happens to be the first country to find this out, and they found out the hard way.

The UK needs to stop playing by their rules. UK should call their bluff.

Leave with no withdrawal deal, but suggest immediate implementation of a 1-2 year transition period. Negotiations to start then next month for the important stuff, which is the Future Relationship deal. IF Merkel and Macron reject this arrangement, then they are entirely to blame for trade tariffs and the hard border.

Let the EU set the tariffs, and let the EU impose the border infrastructure.

LeinsterDub · 20-03-2019 12:02AM

recedite wrote: »

There's 2 main problems hindering Brexit.

1. PM May is a weak leader, and one who originally campaigned for Remain in the referendum. They sensed that in Brussels. The UK needed a strong decisive leader to pull it off, and one who actually believed in what they were doing.

2. The game has been rigged. The EU set the rules such that a country cannot leave the EU without first agreeing to concessions. That prevents any member state from leaving in an orderly way. The UK just happens to be the first country to find this out, and they found out the hard way.

The UK needs to stop playing by their rules. UK should call their bluff.

Leave with no withdrawal deal, but suggest immediate implementation of a 1-2 year transition period. Negotiations to start then next month for the important stuff, which is the Future Relationship deal. IF Merkel and Macron reject this arrangement, then they are entirely to blame for trade tariffs and the hard border.

Let the EU set the tariffs, and let the EU impose the border infrastructure.

10 days to go and people are still throwing out this absolute nonsense

ShooterSF · 20-03-2019 12:07AM

Water John wrote: »

Rather than having to revoke Art 50 at the last minute to prevent Crash Out Brexit, TM has one better option for her on the table. Have her Deal passed by the HOC subject to a Ref.
In that case, it would be the people who might have in effect revoked Art 50 not the Govn't.
I'm sure some way can be found around Bercow's ruling if that is an impediment to a decision o the matter.

Well the people already voted to leave so I feel any extension should be to allow for a referendum on the options with that in mind surely. BETWEEN May's deal or no deal.

Inquitus · 20-03-2019 12:08AM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Well the people already voted to leave so I feel any extension should be to allow for a referendum on the options with that in mind surely. BETWEEN May's deal or no deal.

That's never going to happen thankfully. If there is a 2nd referendum remain will most certainly be on the ballot.

bobmalooka · 20-03-2019 12:17AM

recedite wrote: »

There's 2 main problems hindering Brexit.

1. PM May is a weak leader, and one who originally campaigned for Remain in the referendum. They sensed that in Brussels. The UK needed a strong decisive leader to pull it off, and one who actually believed in what they were doing.

2. The game has been rigged. The EU set the rules such that a country cannot leave the EU without first agreeing to concessions. That prevents any member state from leaving in an orderly way. The UK just happens to be the first country to find this out, and they found out the hard way.

The UK needs to stop playing by their rules. UK should call their bluff.

Leave with no withdrawal deal, but suggest immediate implementation of a 1-2 year transition period. Negotiations to start then next month for the important stuff, which is the Future Relationship deal. IF Merkel and Macron reject this arrangement, then they are entirely to blame for trade tariffs and the hard border.

Let the EU set the tariffs, and let the EU impose the border infrastructure.

1. Agree that May has shown to be weak. Believing you ‘hold all the cards’ doesn’t make it true no matter how strong the leader is. Especially in a game where the cards are face up and always have been.

2.there are no concessions - UK can leave tomorrow if they want. All they’ve been asked to do is stand by pre existing agreements if they want a new agreement.

The next paragraph reads like you’re suggesting the path to a future agreement is to rip up what the negotiators just agreed, sit down with the EU again and tell them if you don’t do what we want the fallout is your fault. Good luck with that.

Last sentence already redundant, UK published their proposed tariff system and de facto sea border last week.

10000maniacs · 20-03-2019 12:19AM

Looks more like a hard Brexit today. A long delay will split the Tories. If Mays deal is rejected again which is very likely, there will be no short delay. The BBC are saying now she will hold the vote on Brexit eve (28th). For the ERG and the DUP it will be like Christmas Eve. A hard Brexit the following evening.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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