Mass shooting New Zealand Mosque - MOD NOTE POST #1

Junkyard Tom · 18-03-2019 7:07pm

Social media algorithms create a sort of unstoppable inertia of bias-affirming bullshit around its users.

Back in the day there was limited sources of information so if you were, say, vaccination sceptical you were largely on your own. Now you can have a vibrant 'community', at your fingertips, of people who share views on any old mad shite.

listermint · 18-03-2019 7:17pm

Excellent work by the NZ prime minister. Straight away changing gun laws.

No one needs a semi automatic rifle. I've said it before and I'll say it again there is zero need for that sort of weapon at all in a domestic setting. It's not required for sport it's not required for anything. It's a mechanical toy for people who want to play with it.

I've all the time in the world for sporting weapons rifles or sport pistols . But anything else is ego stoking and there no excuses for it.

gozunda · 18-03-2019 8:45pm

listermint wrote: »

Excellent work by the NZ prime minister. Straight away changing gun laws.

No one needs a semi automatic rifle. I've said it before and I'll say it again there is zero need for that sort of weapon at all in a domestic setting. It's not required for sport it's not required for anything. It's a mechanical toy for people who want to play with it.

I've all the time in the world for sporting weapons rifles or sport pistols . But anything else is ego stoking and there no excuses for it.

You can't legislate for crazy. More restrictive gun laws unfortunately do not stop the criminally deranged from accessing firearms or using them.

tuxy · 18-03-2019 8:50pm

gozunda wrote: »

You can't legislate for crazy. More restrictive gun laws unfortunately do not stop the criminally deranged from accessing firearms or using them.

I believe it does, usually these people don't have the criminal connections to obtain illegal guns. But of course there are still bombs and cars and just about anything if you have a good imagination.

He must be very happy as gun control was one of his core objectives.

strandroad · 18-03-2019 8:53pm

tuxy wrote: »

He must be very happy as gun control was one of his core objectives.

Was it, why? Genuine question. I would have thought that guns are quite a thing for right wing extremists; Islamists seem to prefer vehicles or explosives.

gozunda · 18-03-2019 8:56pm

tuxy wrote: »

I believe it does, usually these people don't have the criminal connections to obtain illegal guns. But of course there are still bombs and cars and just about anything if you have a good imagination.

He must be very happy as gun control was one of his core objectives.

This guy seemed to have plenty of connections imo. It really doesn't seem to be that hard to obtain non licensed firearms imo. Interestingly we do not know if all the guns he had were even legal tbh. Obtaining same probably easier than going through many current licensing controls which require all kinds of jumping threw hoops for many. Notably this guy was also carrying cans of petrol and was shown lifting these and putting them down again in his video footage

Much like many of the attacks in Europe on non Muslims which used vehicles and knives as lethal weapons - crazies will just use whatever they can get their hands on tbh.

strandroad wrote: »

Was it, why? Genuine question. I would have thought that guns are quite a thing for right wing extremists; Islamists seem to prefer vehicles or explosives.

Nope - Many of the European attacks on non muslims were done by Islamists bearing guns such as the Charlie Hebdo attack.
So no guns are not the exclusive domain of whities ...

tuxy · 18-03-2019 9:00pm

gozunda wrote: »

This guy seemed to have plenty of connections imo. It really doesn't seem to be that hard to obtain non licensed firearms imo

In New Zealand the person is licenced not the gun. So once he got his licence he could go in and buy all the guns he wanted. Why would he go to the trouble and extra cost of getting illegal guns?
What connections does he have? I'm unaware of any criminal links he had before this.

Wibbs · 18-03-2019 9:00pm

listermint wrote: »

I've all the time in the world for sporting weapons rifles or sport pistols .

Many of which are semiautomatic. This is the problem with knee jerk laws that appeal to a largely ignorant electorate, who have no real clue about what firearms are what and think every semiautomatic firearm is a "machine gun" or "assault rifle" and understandably cry Yay! at some sort of action after such a horror as this.

About the only thing it'll stop are attacks by those particular weapons. If of course they're legally held, illegal weapons are another thing, never mind such weapons already in circulation. Let's look at the Port Arthur massacre in Australia and the resultant tightening up of the gun laws. It had some positive effects, one being suicide by firearms, but the overall suicide rate stayed the same, people just looked to other methods. There were no more mass shootings of the scale of the tragedy that brought the laws in(though there hadn't been before), but shootings of multiple victims still goes on. Today Australia has more registered firearms than it had before the law charge and hundreds of thousands of unregistered firearms.

And like I asked before are shotguns OK? They're about the easiest firearm to legally hold, even in Ireland. They can cause truly horrendous wounds in close quarters. They're actually circumscribed in their use in war by The Hague and Geneva Conventions, whereas fully and semi automatic weapons aren't.

Now do NOT get me wrong, I most certainly would not like to see gun ownership at the levels of the US, where the horse has long bolted, never mind some quirk in the culture that clearly encourages a minority of mostly young men to turn into murderous animals. Ireland's laws for the most part work(though have some truly daft aspects), but we were never a "gun culture" the way the US, or Australia, or it seems New Zealand. Indeed New Zealand is a good example of the cultural aspects that are important. Even with lax enough laws compared to Europe, they had only one mass shooting in their history before the dreadful events of the other day.

What I am saying is yes gun control is a factor, but it is all too often the only factor considered in the aftermath of tragedies like this. As I pointed out before; in the US gun laws have been tightening up over the last two decades, yet the incidences of mass shootings have gone significantly up. If cultures continue to just look at one factor then those other factors get ignored and we will continue to see tragedies like this one. Hell, look what has just happened today in the Netherlands, a country with strict firearms legislation.

Boggles · 18-03-2019 9:01pm

gozunda wrote: »

Interestingly we do not know if all the guns he had were even legal tbh.

They were. It's not hard at all get a license, basic background check, you don't have to register every firearm, you could have 1 or 30 they wouldn't know.

gozunda · 18-03-2019 9:04pm

tuxy wrote: »

In New Zealand the person is licenced not the gun. So once he got his licence he could go in and buy all the guns he wanted. Why would he go to the trouble and extra cost of getting illegal guns?
What connections does he have? I'm unaware of any criminal links he had before this.

Afaik certain types of firearms are still restricted there. Btw I'm not saying he didn't go the full legal route - just we have no idea whether all his firearms were legally obtained or otherwise. The New Zealand police appear to have linked him to other 'activists' aka contacts. That is as much as I know.

tuxy · 18-03-2019 9:06pm

gozunda wrote: »

Afaik certain types of firesrms are still restricted there. Btw I'm not saying he didn't go the full legal route- just we have no idea whether all his firearms were legally obtained or otherwise. The New Zealand police apoear to have linked him to other 'activists aka contacts. That is as much as I know.

Every weapon he had is currently legal in New Zealand, it's stupid to say he would have tried to buy these guns illegally when he had a licence to just go buy them in a shop.
Could you give me more info about the "connections" he had?

Boggles · 18-03-2019 9:08pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Today Australia has more registered firearms than it had before the law charge

This stat gets thrown around a lot without clear explanation.

There is more guns but far less gun ownership.

i.e less people have guns.

gozunda · 18-03-2019 9:09pm

tuxy wrote: »

Every weapon he had is currently legal in New Zealand, it's stupid to say he would have tried to buy these guns illegally when he had a licence to just go buy them in a shop.
Could you give me more info about the "connections" he had?

I didn't say he bought them illegally ffs. Read the comment. I know as much as anyone else reading the media reports. I do know you cannot legislate for crazies - they will find their way around most laws imo.

Btw so far I've not seen it detailed that all his firearms were legally obtained otherwise. Where did you see this detailed?

The criminal underclass here funnily enough do not bother with firearms licences btw

Edit AR 15s are legal but are restricted to the amount of rounds which can be fired in New Zealand. His Firearms did not have these restrictions from what I have seen ..

tuxy · 18-03-2019 9:13pm

gozunda wrote: »

This guy seemed to have plenty of connections imo.

This can't be ignored as it's an angle I'm totally unaware of and wish to lean more.

gozunda wrote: »

The criminal underclass here funnily enough do not bother with firearms licences btw

No but they are happy to spend €50k or more for a rifle that's worth €2k and are only interested in making money not mass killings.
Without the right criminal connection you can#t even find someone willing to talk to you about illegal gun. The drug gangs that deal in these gun have too much to loose by selling to civilians.

gozunda · 18-03-2019 9:21pm

tuxy wrote: »

No but they are happy to spend €50k or more for a rifle that's worth €2k and are only interested in making money not mass killings.

Many of the guns come in with drug shipments as freebies. Yeah they seem happy enough killing each other and innocent bystanders. As for 'mass' killings' with illegal firearms we dont have to go back to far in this country btw.

Without the right criminal connection you can#t even find someone willing to talk to you about illegal gun. The drug gangs that deal in these gun have too much to loose by selling to civilians.

You can buy drugs / stolen cars / and many other illegal things in this country. Guns are there for the the right money imo. The drug gangs dont give a proverbial...

Sheep Shagger · 18-03-2019 9:22pm

From the NZ Embassy Facebook page tonight:

Thank you to all those who have expressed their condolences following the tragic terrorist attacks in Christchurch. A condolence book will be available for signing for a limited time at the Embassy (Level 3, 2-4 Merrion Row, Dublin 2) between 10am and 1pm - Tuesday 19 March, Wednesday 20 March, and Friday 21 March.

Those wishing to add their condolences electronically can send them to nzembdublin@gmail.com by 10am Monday 25 March. Messages will be printed out and added to the book.

RandomName2 · 18-03-2019 9:24pm

I wonder if stricter gun laws in the Netherlands was the reason why today's lone wolf ending up with only 3 fatalities, and not the 50 witnessed in Christchurch.

Wibbs · 18-03-2019 9:25pm

Boggles wrote: »

This stat gets thrown around a lot without clear explanation.

There is more guns but far less gun ownership.

i.e less people have guns.

True B, gun ownership dropped by over half IIRC, though considering there are more guns in Australia today it also means fewer people have a helluva lot more guns in their arsenal.

tuxy · 18-03-2019 9:26pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

I wonder if stricter gun laws in the Netherlands was the reason why today's lone wolf ending up with only 3 fatalities, and not the 50 witnessed in Christchurch.

Do you know what type of gun was used today?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 18-03-2019 9:27pm

tuxy wrote: »

The shooter is still making reference to memes and it's still working
He used the OK hand simbol today in court, there has been an ongoing joke to keep posting this symbol on social media to trick the traditional media into thinking this is actually a white supremacists secret sign.
The media continue to be confused by it.

Are they really confused by it? If the far right are using something as a symbol, even if it's something of a joke, it's functioning as a far right symbol.

Nazis have always taken an interest in occult symbols like the Black Sun on Fritz’s ring, and like the swastika itself, but more obscure symbols can be useful as a kind of secret handshake, a way for fascists to recognize each other, without the normies taking notice.

The best symbols to use for this purpose are ones that are not generally associated with fascism, or at least have other meanings, like the Othala rune or the iron cross.

Better still are symbols that, until adoption by fascists, are completely innocuous. Modern fascists have taken to using almost arbitrary emoji as a way to wink and nod at each other, most notably the frog (after pepe), the milk, and the ok sign.

It doesn’t matter what the symbols are, and in fact it’s important that the symbols constantly change, so that normies don’t catch on. By the time you watch this video, they probably won’t even be using the frog anymore. Maybe it’ll be this. Or this.

The only way to find out is to watch fascists carefully and see what symbols they use to identify themselves.

And, of course, another advantage of using innocuous symbols is that when leftists try to point those symbols out, the fascist can always say:

Fritz: These gullible SJWs now think that even the ok sign is racist. Is there anything they don’t think is racist?

And the gullible centrists will be taken right in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx4BVGPkdzk

Wibbs · 18-03-2019 9:34pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

I wonder if stricter gun laws in the Netherlands was the reason why today's lone wolf ending up with only 3 fatalities, and not the 50 witnessed in Christchurch.

Unlikely R. More likely is that this - and it seems this is the case - was a spur of the moment opportunistic attack which apparently may have been a personal family matter targeting one or two people, with a handgun. Probably a semiautomatic pistol, though a revolver, even a single action revolver would have resulted in the same outcome(though carry fewer rounds and take longer to reload). In tragedies like that, even kitchen knives would be nearly as lethal, as the surge in knife crimes in the UK shows.

Massacres like in New Zealand would require more planning. Weapons wise the same sick prick could likely have caused the same bloody murder with a pair of pump action shotguns, or lever action rifles, firearms which almost certainly won't be hit with whatever new laws the NZ government brings in.

tuxy · 18-03-2019 9:34pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Are they really confused by it? If the far right are using something as a symbol, even if it's something of a joke, it's functioning as a far right symbol.

The OK symbol is used by just about everyone, the people who started the joke did so because of it's popularity and use in everyday life. You can find pictures of many famous people using the symbol, so now you can convince extreme left media that those people are white supremacist.
So yes this symbol will be seen as a white supremacist symbol by those that want to see that and and will cause all kinds of confusion because I don't see it declining in use to mean OK.

gw80 · 18-03-2019 9:42pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Are they really confused by it? If the far right are using something as a symbol, even if it's something of a joke, it's functioning as a far right symbol.

Yes it's the nazi's,
Everything you don't like is nazis.
Everyone you don't like are nazis.
That time you missed the bus,....... nazis
That time you stubbed you toe on the coffee table.....nazis did it.
That strange noise you here late at night while you are trying to sleep... that's right, nazis under your bed.
I can't tell you how many times I've had to chase nazis out of my garden with a big stick when they are trying to get into my bins at night.

listermint · 18-03-2019 10:18pm

gozunda wrote: »

You can't legislate for crazy. More restrictive gun laws unfortunately do not stop the criminally deranged from accessing firearms or using them.

You're right, you can't legislate for crazy

But you can stop semi automatic weapons from being easy for the man on the street to own.

They serve no purpose but allowing for killing as many targets as you can quickly.

Why .

Why are they needed off a battle field?

listermint · 18-03-2019 10:20pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Unlikely R. More likely is that this - and it seems this is the case - was a spur of the moment opportunistic attack which apparently may have been a personal family matter targeting one or two people, with a handgun. Probably a semiautomatic pistol, though a revolver, even a single action revolver would have resulted in the same outcome(though carry fewer rounds and take longer to reload). In tragedies like that, even kitchen knives would be nearly as lethal, as the surge in knife crimes in the UK shows.

Massacres like in New Zealand would require more planning. Weapons wise the same sick prick could likely have caused the same bloody murder with a pair of pump action shotguns, or lever action rifles, firearms which almost certainly won't be hit with whatever new laws the NZ government brings in.

I'm no world could he have murdered 50 people in that time with the weapons you describe.

Semi automatics have no business in the public's hands.

None.

listermint · 18-03-2019 10:24pm

Wibbs wrote: »

..

And to come back to you comparing shotguns and semi-automatic weapons.

Christ on a bike.

You cannot kill 50 targets with a shotgun like that. Yes I know full well shotguns are plentiful in Ireland. My father in law has a few of them. Beautiful weapons in fact.

Semi-automatic weapons have no business being in the Public hands. It's not knee jerk. Mass murder is ubiquitous now the weapon of choice being semi-automatic rifles. What's knee jerk about finally bothering to take these weapon's out of public hands
Knee jerk ... Pull the other one fella

tuxy · 18-03-2019 10:27pm

listermint wrote: »

I'm no world could he have murdered 50 people in that time with the weapons you describe.

Semi automatics have no business in the public's hands.

None.

You can buy a semi automatic shotgun legally in Ireland. It's not a difficult licence to get as people use them for clay shooting, hunting and pest control. Legally limited to 3 rounds I think but of course the restriction could be removed.

https://www.sportsden.ie/hunting-accesories/gun-showroom/shotguns/franchi-variopress-12g-semi-auto.html

listermint · 18-03-2019 10:28pm

tuxy wrote: »

You can buy a semi automatic shotgun legally in Ireland. It's not a difficult licence to get as people use them for clay shooting, hunting and pest control. Legally limited to 3 rounds I think but of course the restriction could be removed.

https://www.sportsden.ie/hunting-accesories/gun-showroom/shotguns/franchi-variopress-12g-semi-auto.html

I'm aware

Also as you are aware there are restrictions

Grayson · 18-03-2019 10:31pm

gw80 wrote: »

Yes it's the nazi's,
Everything you don't like is nazis.
Everyone you don't like are nazis.
That time you missed the bus,....... nazis
That time you stubbed you toe on the coffee table.....nazis did it.
That strange noise you here late at night while you are trying to sleep... that's right, nazis under your bed.
I can't tell you how many times I've had to chase nazis out of my garden with a big stick when they are trying to get into my bins at night.

The point is that if a load of far right people keep using the same symbol to try and make everyone else think it's a far right symbol, then it has infact become a far right symbol.

If everyone in Ireland started saying "Top of the morning" as a greeting tomorrow, even if it's tongue in cheek, then it would quite rightly be recognised as an Irish thing, even if it started out as a joke.

tuxy · 18-03-2019 10:33pm

listermint wrote: »

I'm aware

Also as you are aware there are restrictions

Do you think semi autos should be banned in Ireland?
Personally I don't care as I don't own one and don't feel strongly about it either way.

Mass shooting New Zealand Mosque - MOD NOTE POST #1

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