Choosing between Public and Private Sector

Snow Garden · 13-03-2019 12:33AM

Only 15 per cent of staff in the Civil Service believe that poor performance is being tackled, according to a major new survey of personnel.

The 2017 Civil Service employment engagement survey found that almost 60 per cent of civil servants maintained that poor performance was not being effectively addressed in their department.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/only-15-of-civil-service-staff-believe-poor-performance-being-tackled-1.3443684

Creol1 · 13-03-2019 09:52AM

Will never understand why people use "PS" as abbreviation for Public Sector...Private Sector has the exact same abbreviation...

beauf · 13-03-2019 09:58AM

Or where it's actually the CS they are talking about.

Creol1 · 13-03-2019 10:05AM

dvdman1 wrote: »

Definitely stay in the private sector
Cronyism in the public sector is rampant its full of brothers, sisters and cousins that never even did an interview and if they did one, it was already known they'd get the job. Theres generations of incompetent workers who cover 1 thing......you guessed it, their own a**
Do yourself a favour...Private sector is the real world its where everything is at.

This is wholly inaccurate. Recruitment to almost all positions in the Civil Service is carried out centrally by the Public Appointments Service; the first couple of stages of recruitment will generally be blind as to the participant's identity, based on a computer-based assessment in verbal/numerical reasoning, etc. When it comes to interview stage, you will be interviewed by a panel you have never met and your answers will be marked against a clear set of competencies that all candidates have to meet.

If there's anyone who has managed to wrangle a job for their son/daughter through such a stringent system, then well done.

Snow Garden wrote: »

Only 15 per cent of staff in the Civil Service believe that poor performance is being tackled, according to a major new survey of personnel.

The 2017 Civil Service employment engagement survey found that almost 60 per cent of civil servants maintained that poor performance was not being effectively addressed in their department.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/only-15-of-civil-service-staff-believe-poor-performance-being-tackled-1.3443684

That means that they believe underperformance is not being successfully tackled where it takes place; it doesn't imply anything about how frequent or widespread it is.

Returning more directly to the OP's situation, one word of caution I would offer is that the job security, etc., is great, but bear in mind that you have to serve a year-long probationary period first and it is only after that that you will be established.

doc22 · 13-03-2019 11:47AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You've noticed the new generation of 40-something SecGens, and similar A/Secs and POs, right? How did they manage to get 'seniority'? Promotions have nothing to do with seniority - the criteria for promotion competitions are set out clearly and implemented by Public Apps Service.

Performance appraisals are as good as the line manager implementing them.

That's terrible for the future, those senior positions will be out of circulation for 20plus years,far less people will have the opportunity to fill those roles, along with open recruitment there's going to be limited movement into the future for internals

Diceicle · 13-03-2019 12:23PM

doc22 wrote: »

That's terrible for the future, those senior positions will be out of circulation for 20plus years,far less people will have the opportunity to fill those roles, along with open recruitment there's going to be limited movement into the future for internals

That's assuming they stay put.
Good number of very Senior people have shifted to the Private Sector and to the UK in my area.

AndrewJRenko · 13-03-2019 01:09PM

doc22 wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You've noticed the new generation of 40-something SecGens, and similar A/Secs and POs, right? How did they manage to get 'seniority'? Promotions have nothing to do with seniority - the criteria for promotion competitions are set out clearly and implemented by Public Apps Service.

Performance appraisals are as good as the line manager implementing them.

That's terrible for the future, those senior positions will be out of circulation for 20plus years,far less people will have the opportunity to fill those roles, along with open recruitment there's going to be limited movement into the future for internals

SecGens are on seven year contracts. They're not permanent.

13-03-2019 04:55PM

theres still a good percentage of the senior jobs where retirements are looming

besides, you cant complain that good people getting in have limited your chances. thats exactly the attitude that people looking to have a lazy dig at the public service love to hear.

beat the competition on merit. earn your progression. revel in the changing profile of the service you work in and thank your lucky stars that it is changing.

(hey it works for me)

Monife · 13-03-2019 06:30PM

Diceicle wrote: »

For clarity - I work in the PS and there are benefits.
Pension-wise there's no gain for you there as your contract would be a defined contribution.

This is incorrect. While the new pension scheme (Single Scheme) is not as beneficial as previous public sector pension schemes, it is still defined benefit. However, instead of being based on your final salary, it is based on your career average salary.

Snow Garden wrote: »

You might need to leave ambition at the door if you join the public sector. Progression is more about years of service and network than ability. Performance appraisals are generally a tick-the-box exercise but you will get your increments no matter what happens.

Seniority is long since gone in the Public Service. Progression is now based on meeting the competencies of the required grade, usually by filling out a competency based application form and if you are shortlisted, attending for interview. Some competitions have additional selection exercises such as preparing a paper or presentation.

There is a huge amount of movement in the Public/Civil Service now, including numerous opportunities for promotion. If you have ambition, the necessary skills and experience and are decent at interviews, you can progress quickly. I went from CO to EO to HEO in 4 years. My friend, who started at the same time as me at the same grade, is now an AP.

From my experience, performance appraisals do tend to be a bit of a box-ticking exercise but if you consistently under-perform, you will get a rating of unsatisfactory and will not receive your annual increment. However, I am in the Public Service, not Civil, and I have heard the Civil Service are utilising the performance management system much more.

OP, I moved from the Private Sector to Public and took a €5,000 pay cut at the time. But now I am on €25,000 more than I was in the Private Sector. Flexi-time is a massive benefit, being able to pretty much set your own hours and if you work extra, being able to take up to a day and a half off extra every month. Annual leave also tends to be higher in the Public/Civil Service. And like you said, paid sick leave. You might think you're fairly healthy now but you never know what might happen. You can take up 3 months sick leave on full pay, and then another 3 months on half pay, if you end up needing this. This increases if you have a critical illness to 6 months on full pay, 6 months on half pay.

Other types of special leave too, compassionate leave if a family member dies (20 days for spouse or child, 5 days for a parent/step-parent, sibling, grandparent or in-law, 1 day for uncle/aunt/niece/nephew). Paid force majeure leave (3 days in a 12 month period, no more than 5 days over 3 years). Training opportunities are excellent and usually a facility whereby they pay your fees in advance.

There are more but these are the main ones.

bobbysands81 · 13-03-2019 11:49PM

dvdman1 wrote: »

Definitely stay in the private sector
Cronyism in the public sector is rampant its full of brothers, sisters and cousins that never even did an interview and if they did one, it was already known they'd get the job. Theres generations of incompetent workers who cover 1 thing......you guessed it, their own a**
Do yourself a favour...Private sector is the real world its where everything is at.

This is the typical response of someone who hasn’t a notion about the public sector.

hardybuck · 14-03-2019 04:04PM

doc22 wrote: »

That's terrible for the future, those senior positions will be out of circulation for 20plus years,far less people will have the opportunity to fill those roles, along with open recruitment there's going to be limited movement into the future for internals

A Secretary General can only remain in their post for a 7 year term.

Snow Garden · 14-03-2019 05:03PM

Monife wrote: »

From my experience, performance appraisals do tend to be a bit of a box-ticking exercise but if you consistently under-perform, you will get a rating of unsatisfactory and will not receive your annual increment.

I have been in the PS several years and I never heard on one person getting unsatisfactory. I have never seen an increment being withheld.

I know a few who should have

Technocentral · 14-03-2019 05:05PM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Almost everything I ever read about working in the public sector is negative.

It seems to be a demoralising place.

I would stick with the private sector.

Some people like a better work/life balance?

hardybuck · 14-03-2019 05:39PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

I have been in the PS several years and I never heard on one person getting unsatisfactory. I have never seen an increment being withheld.

I know a few who should have

Over 320,000 people work in the Public Service. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Technocentral · 14-03-2019 06:00PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Snow Garden wrote: »

I have been in the PS several years and I never heard on one person getting unsatisfactory. I have never seen an increment being withheld.

I know a few who should have

Over 320,000 people work in the Public Service. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The new intake are a lot more conscientious it has to be said, the lazy older ones will be gone soon enough. They started work in a different Ireland, that Ireland is gone.

hardybuck · 14-03-2019 06:04PM

Technocentral wrote: »

The new intake are a lot more conscientious it has to be said, the lazy older ones will be gone soon enough. They started work in a different Ireland, that Ireland is gone.

Professionalisation of HR has also resulted in more action being taken.

In the Civil Service a considerable number of new staff don't make it through probation.

The system just demands more from the business now. In the olden days they could write to you and it could go into a drawer for a couple of weeks before a letter of response would go out. These days you've got the media, the public, the political system all prodding you for information non-stop, so while there are obviously some people in a big organisation who aren't brilliant, there's less hiding places.

Crock Rock · 14-03-2019 06:06PM

Public Sector all the way.
Excellent pension benefits, no performance reviews, exorbinant pay rates, essentially un-fireable, what's not to like?

Snow Garden · 14-03-2019 06:09PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Over 320,000 people work in the Public Service. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

A quick google revealed that 0.25% got Unsatisfactory in 2016. It's not clear whether increments were withheld from those folks.

800 out of 320,000 so. Seems like a reasonable bell curve

AndrewJRenko · 14-03-2019 06:11PM

Crock Rock wrote: »

Public Sector all the way.
Excellent pension benefits, no performance reviews, exorbinant pay rates, essentially un-fireable, what's not to like?

The fact that you got most of it wrong?

beauf · 14-03-2019 06:14PM

A lot of Performance appraisals are a box ticking exercise, or , manipulated. Which is why so many just give them lip service. So I would be wary about putting too much faith them.

If you can't fire someone, there are ways of making life difficult and putting them out to pasture.

Crock Rock · 14-03-2019 06:15PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The fact that you got most of it wrong?

So which parts did I get right? Go on?

Technocentral · 14-03-2019 06:18PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Technocentral wrote: »

The new intake are a lot more conscientious it has to be said, the lazy older ones will be gone soon enough. They started work in a different Ireland, that Ireland is gone.

Professionalisation of HR has also resulted in more action being taken.

In the Civil Service a considerable number of new staff don't make it through probation.

The system just demands more from the business now. In the olden days they could write to you and it could go into a drawer for a couple of weeks before a letter of response would go out. These days you've got the media, the public, the political system all prodding you for information non-stop, so while there are obviously some people in a big organisation who aren't brilliant, there's less hiding places.

Yep Ive been in 3 different places the ones taking the piss tend to be the 20 yr plus ones.

Monife · 14-03-2019 07:40PM

Crock Rock wrote: »

So which parts did I get right? Go on?

Exorbitant pay rates: entry level at the bottom of the ladder starts on approx 22/23 grand, was under 21 when I started 5 years ago.

There are performance reviews, there is probation and I have seen people get their probation extended and the ones who didn't improve, let go. I have also seen a couple of people not get their increment due to unsatisfactory sick leave levels (and there's only about 60 people in my organisation).

Wanderer2010 · 14-03-2019 08:20PM

One thing I read a lot is this perception that private sector workers can be disciplined a lot easier and that its much easier to get rid of slackers. This is a complete untruth. The ability to get rid of a bad worker is purely down to how much will a manager has and if they have the guts to take on wasters, and I have actually seen more useless idiots cruise in private sector jobs than public sector jobs so don't let this untrue perception colour your decision...

AndrewJRenko · 14-03-2019 09:55PM

Crock Rock wrote: »

Public Sector all the way.
Excellent pension benefits, no performance reviews, exorbinant pay rates, essentially un-fireable, what's not to like?

Crock Rock wrote: »

So which parts did I get right? Go on?

Well, none of them really.

Excellent pension benefits - new public sector staff join the 'Single Pension Scheme' which has dramatically reduced the benefit to staff. It is a DB pension scheme, though even getting a pension in the future relies on future Governments not going bust. There is no 'pot of money' for any staff member - just a promise.

No performance reviews - every public body has performance reviews, using the PMDS structure or a variation on that structure

Exorbitant pay rates - well, not really - starting salaries for entry level staff is €28k, for managers (including IT project managers) is €48k (HEO level) and for senior IT managers is €66k. It's really not competitive at all, and certainly not exorbitant. It is difficult to attract decent candidates, and very difficult to retain them once they've got any decent experience under their belt. There are no benefits - no health insurance, no free dinners or pissups, no junkets, no nothing.

Essentially can't be fired - staff do get fired - here's the stats for one HSE region for one year; https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-staff-attendance-613604-Sep2012/

But why is firing staff seen as a good thing? Firing generally means that somebody screwed up - in recruiting an unsuitable person or in managing their performance in the role. Firings are a badge of shame, not a badge of honour.

Is there anything else?

hardybuck · 14-03-2019 11:01PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

A quick google revealed that 0.25% got Unsatisfactory in 2016. It's not clear whether increments were withheld from those folks.

800 out of 320,000 so. Seems like a reasonable bell curve

Why would you expect to see a bell curve?

Snow Garden · 14-03-2019 11:40PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Why would you expect to see a bell curve?

Because I previously worked in the private sector and bell curves like the one below were common when doing performance appraisals in large companies.

https://empxtrack.com/blog/bell-curve-for-performance-appraisal/

hardybuck · 14-03-2019 11:52PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

Because I previously worked in the private sector and bell curves like the one below were common when doing performance appraisals in large companies.

https://empxtrack.com/blog/bell-curve-for-performance-appraisal/

Me too, and they were in vogue once alright.

The idea came along in the 1980s, and has always been controversial. It can have initial success, but is not a good medium to long term option. It was an out and out disaster when the UK tried it.

It works on the premise that there is a normal distribution of performance. While this might be the case the first year or two, after those people are gone it gets harder and harder to identify the 'poor' performers to keep feeding the beast.

It's recognised as being something which crushes morale, stifles innovation, does not support collaborative working and promotes unscrupulous competition among staff.

Good for you if you no longer have to work in a backward organisation which thinks this is a good model.

Creol1 · 15-03-2019 12:45AM

Snow Garden wrote: »

A quick google revealed that 0.25% got Unsatisfactory in 2016. It's not clear whether increments were withheld from those folks.

800 out of 320,000 so. Seems like a reasonable bell curve

An increment will in all cases be withheld where there is an unsatisfactory rating, and they are withheld from people who have satisfactory performance too, e.g., on attendance grounds.

BookNerd · 15-03-2019 10:48AM

From my own private sector experience I have already seen under performance by long term staff go undisciplined or just plain ignored. Newer staff seem to be dealt with with a firmer hand.
I don't think this is exclusive to any any sector. Long term, permanent staff are almost impossible to get rid of and usually not worth the hassle disciplining them. Lessons are learned and incoming staff are dealt with before they become permanent (again, this is in my experience).

Choosing between Public and Private Sector

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