Hot take: Multiculturalism is good

09-03-2019 01:08PM

When looking at historic migrations, it is important to remember that in most cases they were triggered by an area of the planet becoming overcrowded and resulting in local conflicts over resources.
The losers either died or migrated elsewhere to restart their lives, if there was a native population in the area that they migrated to then they either integrated, supplanted or were driven back by the natives.
You can look all over the world and see examples of these types of past migrations almost everywhere, but generally you where the populations have been supplanted and the native populations driven to the poorer areas of the country. The US and Israel are examples of where the migrants (generally) integrated with each other while supplanting the previous inhabitants.

The way I see it, the current waves of migration into Europe from the south is another supplanting of culture in progress, unlike the migration from the east where integration is working far better.

Dr_serious2 · 09-03-2019 11:26PM

sk8erboii wrote: »

Its the default state of humanity lad for better or for worse. For example europe was colonized three or four times in prehistory, each time the ‘indigenous’ population were supplanted violently. But also each time, europe evolved socially and technologically. Mass migration is a huge catalyst for sure

Sk8erboii has named himself after how he imagines a cool American teen would be. He speaks in Americanised language, berating himself and his own culture. Foolishly, this wannabe American has decided that the Irish, a nation that bravely fought for their rights over thousands of years, a nation that were oppressed, downtrodden and vilified, is on the wrong side of all arguments.

Sk8erboii, with your ridiculous name, hear this. My ancestors, up until my fathers genetation, were very poor. They worked day and night to ensure better days for people like me and you. If you really cant take any pride in their achievements in making us a better country then I feel very sorry for you.

Jmsg · 10-03-2019 02:52AM

As late a phase of historical decadence this now cultural wasteland is in it's dissolving in all quarters at a most alarming rate leaving the future an utterly unthinkable prospect. When the fully fledged collapse invariably comes, we'll be in, to say the utmost least, an unprepared state to deal with the situation. This is the legacy we are all leaving our children, which factor is key in consideration as to why there is the degree of denial of the reality of our current situation by the mass.

Tacklebox · 10-03-2019 03:16AM

Jmsg wrote: »

As late a phase of historical decadence this now cultural wasteland is in it's dissolving in all quarters at a most alarming rate leaving the future an utterly unthinkable prospect. When the fully fledged collapse invariably comes, we'll be in, to say the utmost least, an unprepared state to deal with the situation. This is the legacy we are all leaving our children, which factor is key in consideration as to why there is the degree of denial of the reality of our current situation by the mass.

It was 1999 I knew a tree surgeon who was kneeling down sharpening his chainsaw, he was really into history.

He'd be very random with what he'd say, he was talking to me about the roman empire and its decadence. He said that the roman empire fcked itself out of existence and at the rate society is going it'll be like Rome in around 50 year's time.

I think he was onto something, lust was another topic of his.
I was gloating about my drinking and how I was out partying every weekend and pissing my money away, sleeping around like guys and women did in their 20's.
He could see the effect my hedonistic lifestyle was having on me, but I couldn't see it.
Until in 2003 I had enough of the hooch, turned my back on it, still off it.

He was a bit of a hermit, living alone in an old gate lodge beside a wood.
He'd light a rollie and sit there thinking away in silence, then tell me how people have lost the run of themselves and their self respect.

Now im starting to be a bit like him, contemplating and taking stock.

_Kaiser_ · 10-03-2019 10:53AM

sk8erboii wrote: »

I actually pity you if those are the kinds of thoughts going through your head.
Not trying to be demeaning but I cant imagine a high functioning member of society to have that at the forefront of their minds.

If you are disadvantaged im very sorry. I hope you find a way out.

I got as far as this post and this thread became clear.

It's not a discussion that the OP wants, it's validation, and as with so many others these days, he can't handle dissenting views (some of which have been very well explained) without resorting to insulting tripe like the above - essentially, if you're not on board with my message, you must be an uneducated, unemployed (or certainly lower class) fool :rolleyes:

Well OP, I'm 20 years older than you, grew up in Santry/Coolock with 3 years in Holland in there too, went to college, worked hard, and now run an IT department in a multinational so there's my background for you. I have an almost 7 year old son, and I worry greatly about the Ireland/Europe he'll find himself in when he's your age, never mind mine.

Attitudes like yours are preventing this country from having a much needed discussion about how "multiculturalism" is affecting Ireland and just what we can and should do going forward.
It's not all been a success story of hard working immigrants arriving and contributing positively to our economy, society and culture despite what the likes of RTE and Twitter may have told you, nor is it "racist" or "xenophobic" to identify the problems and talk about them.

Multiculturalism and immigration can and should be a positive benefit to our country, but it should be on OUR terms (and regardless of how this fits in with European/German policy on the subject). The reality is that we're a small island nation on the edge of Europe with a history of cultural division, violence and death as it is without taking on even more.

Regardless of what you see Leo and European heads saying at the moment, we're insignificant to the larger European plan/agenda except as a thorn to some of the bigger nations because of our FDI/Corporation tax policies, and as stick to beat the UK with at the moment over Brexit. Once the dust finally settles, we'll see just how irrelevant we are in the New Europe.

This is our country and our future that is being talked about, and yet we don't even have a proper voice at the table because people like you OP are busy attacking anyone and anything that doesn't fit with what ultimately probably isn't even your own opinion on the matter.

Kivaro · 11-03-2019 01:29PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I got as far as this post and this thread became clear.

It's not a discussion that the OP wants, it's validation, and as with so many others these days, he can't handle dissenting views (some of which have been very well explained) without resorting to insulting tripe like the above - essentially, if you're not on board with my message, you must be an uneducated, unemployed (or certainly lower class) fool :rolleyes:

After putting that poster on ignore and advising others to do similarly, he immediately called me a racist. He hurled all types of abuse at other posters who wanted to debate his views and of course his retort was they were all alt-right, Nazi's, or didn't like brown people. His abuse of other posters was allowed unfettered.

Here's the interesting point about this thread. I can guarantee you that if someone who had a differing mindset than the OP on this thread (e.g. a poster who wanted a reasonable and fair discussion about multiculturalism in Ireland), started this thread, the mods would lock it after a few posts. Or they would move it to Politics Cafe with a note saying that PC is a very busy forum, so it may take a while for the thread to be re-opened, if at all. One AH mod actually said that recently when he moved a social issue thread. I took a look at PC after he made that ludicrous comment and there were zero new posts on PC for the day, and only a few for the previous day. An obvious disingenuous effort by that mod to stifle a fair debate on social issue hot topics. Fair = more than one view allowed.

It is unfortunate that mod bias is still alive on AH and that is unfortunate. It is actually losing money for the boards business owners. There would a good deal more paid subscribers, click-through revenue etc. for boards if AH modding reflected the majority of posters who post on here, and not the tiny minority who view debating social topics such as multiculturalism, non-EU migration etc. as racist/bigoted. The usual disclaimer notes that not all AH mods are like that.

Unfortunately, this is a reflection of the Irish political system and the media in Ireland, where politicians and the media favour the minority virtue signalers versus the view of the overwhelming majority of people in the country. The silent majority will soon have a day of reckoning; it's inevitable, and our voices will eventually be heard, and the nonsense liberal policies forced on the working/contributing members of our society will be consigned to history.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-03-2019 02:53PM

Multiculturalism; Good
Ghettoisation/Segregation; Bad

Wibbs · 11-03-2019 03:20PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

Multiculturalism; Good
Ghettoisation/Segregation; Bad

The first part is a big debate, mainly on what the definition involved is, the second? What if people actually want and seek to segregate themselves along group affiliations? This happens in every single modern "multicultural" western society. Understandably, as people like to be around people and culture that is familiar. Hell, just look at how many go on foreign holidays and seek out the familiar in "Irish" bars that serve "Irish" food. The British do it, the French, the Germans etc. How do you propose to engineer that out of basic low level human nature?

sk8erboii · 11-03-2019 03:28PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I got as far as this post and this thread became clear.

It's not a discussion that the OP wants, it's validation, and as with so many others these days, he can't handle dissenting views (some of which have been very well explained) without resorting to insulting tripe like the above - essentially, if you're not on board with my message, you must be an uneducated, unemployed (or certainly lower class) fool :rolleyes:

Well OP, I'm 20 years older than you, grew up in Santry/Coolock with 3 years in Holland in there too, went to college, worked hard, and now run an IT department in a multinational so there's my background for you. I have an almost 7 year old son, and I worry greatly about the Ireland/Europe he'll find himself in when he's your age, never mind mine.

Attitudes like yours are preventing this country from having a much needed discussion about how "multiculturalism" is affecting Ireland and just what we can and should do going forward.
It's not all been a success story of hard working immigrants arriving and contributing positively to our economy, society and culture despite what the likes of RTE and Twitter may have told you, nor is it "racist" or "xenophobic" to identify the problems and talk about them.

Multiculturalism and immigration can and should be a positive benefit to our country, but it should be on OUR terms (and regardless of how this fits in with European/German policy on the subject). The reality is that we're a small island nation on the edge of Europe with a history of cultural division, violence and death as it is without taking on even more.

Regardless of what you see Leo and European heads saying at the moment, we're insignificant to the larger European plan/agenda except as a thorn to some of the bigger nations because of our FDI/Corporation tax policies, and as stick to beat the UK with at the moment over Brexit. Once the dust finally settles, we'll see just how irrelevant we are in the New Europe.

This is our country and our future that is being talked about, and yet we don't even have a proper voice at the table because people like you OP are busy attacking anyone and anything that doesn't fit with what ultimately probably isn't even your own opinion on the matter.

Nice strawman there lad. But youre telling me that im supposed to ‘give voice’ to someone who thinks the kalergi plan is real.

And i listen to real people in real life who voice real concerns (lawbreakers, terrorists, segregation and social conflict) not to paranoid ‘mass genocide of white catholics’ narrative.

Again, nice strawman and rhetoric.

sk8erboii · 11-03-2019 03:33PM

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Sk8erboii has named himself after how he imagines a cool American teen would be. He speaks in Americanised language, berating himself and his own culture. Foolishly, this wannabe American has decided that the Irish, a nation that bravely fought for their rights over thousands of years, a nation that were oppressed, downtrodden and vilified, is on the wrong side of all arguments.

Sk8erboii, with your ridiculous name, hear this. My ancestors, up until my fathers genetation, were very poor. They worked day and night to ensure better days for people like me and you. If you really cant take any pride in their achievements in making us a better country then I feel very sorry for you.

LOOOOL im actually cringing that somebody thought of this and wrote it out.

Listen guy, as much as you wanna diagnose usernames on boards.ie you will never be a psychologist. you’re not even able to analyze your own words

Try going on a rant about your ‘ancestors’, ‘native culture’ in real life and you’ll get about as much respect as that irexit conference.

But i get it, boards is a safe space for you.

Dyr · 11-03-2019 03:35PM

You know something is going to be comedy gold when it starts the words "hot take"

"Pure scutter", more like.

sk8erboii · 11-03-2019 03:39PM

gozunda wrote: »

The default state of dogs and humans is to have fleas. Thankfully that is no longer the case.

It is also true that in Europe in the last couple of decades at least, we seem to have evolved past the need for the destruction of cultures by means of mass migrations and violence.

Talking of 'violent supplatings'(sic) and looking back at history. The (Western) Roman empire was invaded and destroyed by barbarians in the fifth century. Its fall marked the death knell of then known education and literacy, technology, organised economics and not least, the rule of written law within Europe.

The 'dark ages' which followed were dark not only the barbarians brought civilisation to its knees but because life was often nasty, brutish and short.

Socially and technologically Europe descended into chaos for a thousand years after that particular violent 'supplanting' ....

Hahahhahahahahahhaah

The dark ages was a myth fed to sel books and DVDs. People advanced in this era by every metric.

And shouldnt you be supporting the collapse of the (globalist) roman empire?

sk8erboii · 11-03-2019 03:41PM

Bambi wrote: »

You know something is going to be comedy gold when it starts the words "hot take"

"Pure scutter", more like.

‘Interdependence and coexistence has been key to humanity’s success’

You: wtf? Thats pure scutter.

4068ac1elhodqr · 11-03-2019 03:45PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

Multiculturalism; Good
Ghettoisation/Segregation; Bad

Denmark would argue that their form of 'Multiculturalism' is equating directly to 'Ghettoisation'.

Hence they have to actually resort to 'forced integration' of multicultural ghetto kids.

By the term 'multiculural', their (like others) issues are not with the Chinese, S'Americans, Eastern Europeans etc etc,
- but with a certain group that often reject Danish values from the outset when choosing to live there.

Wibbs · 11-03-2019 03:55PM

sk8erboii wrote: »

Hahahhahahahahahhaah

The dark ages was a myth fed to sel books and DVDs. People advanced in this era by every metric.

"sel[sic] books and DVDs"? Wut? The term is a tad older than that. Before the printed book older. And while I argued earlier that the "dark ages" wasn't nearly so dark as is often believed, quite a number of "metrics" fell off a cliff after the fall of the western empire. Road infrastructure, the written word and of all things pottery just a few examples.

sk8erboii wrote: »

‘Interdependence and coexistence has been key to humanity’s success’

So has war, colonisation and conflict. Americans put men on the moon, but the words spoken on the face of it weren't in Navaho and the rockets that got them there were developed because of the greatest global conflict in history. As were the engines on the next Ryanair flight you take. As were the basic building blocks of the very device you're typing your replies on. War has fostered a huge proportion of technological advancement throughout human history.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-03-2019 04:04PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The first part is a big debate, mainly on what the definition involved is, the second? What if people actually want and seek to segregate themselves along group affiliations? This happens in every single modern "multicultural" western society. Understandably, as people like to be around people and culture that is familiar. Hell, just look at how many go on foreign holidays and seek out the familiar in "Irish" bars that serve "Irish" food. The British do it, the French, the Germans etc. How do you propose to engineer that out of basic low level human nature?

i reckon there is a world of difference between a French tourist who wishes to sample the local vin du pays and a Nigerian family who can only afford a HAPs rental and who needs to be close to their fellow countrymen/women in order to survive on a daily basis.

i think the difference is CHOICE

Wibbs · 11-03-2019 04:27PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i reckon there is a world of difference between a French tourist who wishes to sample the local vin du pays and a Nigerian family who can only afford a HAPs rental and who needs to be close to their fellow countrymen/women in order to survive on a daily basis.

i think the difference is CHOICE

Yet when people have "CHOICE", even higher socioeconomic groups, they still tend strongly towards wanting to associate and live in the same areas as their fellows. Go to expat enclaves in places like France and Italy and Spain. Mostly White middle class British/Irish/Swedish and they buy houses very close to each other. There are parts of places like Marbella in Spain where you could go a fair while without talking to a Spaniard, eating your full English breakfast while reading a locally produced British newspaper. With religious folks this is even more in play as they tend to buy/rent in areas close to church, chapel, synagogue, mosque. You can see this in the history of Dublin. Take one area, the South Circular road. At one time there were a lot of Jewish folks of all backgrounds living in the area because there was a synagogue. They moved out to the suburbs(or left for the US) over the last few decades and again concentrate near the synagogue. While back on the South Circular road, a mosque means there is now a concentration of Muslim folks of all backgrounds living in the area. It's what people overwhelmingly tend to do in nigh on every society that has or had multicultural elements(ancient Rome and early Muslim Baghdad and Istanbul being notable exceptions).

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-03-2019 07:39PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet when people have "CHOICE", even higher socioeconomic groups, they still tend strongly towards wanting to associate and live in the same areas as their fellows. Go to expat enclaves in places like France and Italy and Spain. Mostly White middle class British/Irish/Swedish and they buy houses very close to each other. There are parts of places like Marbella in Spain where you could go a fair while without talking to a Spaniard, eating your full English breakfast while reading a locally produced British newspaper. With religious folks this is even more in play as they tend to buy/rent in areas close to church, chapel, synagogue, mosque. You can see this in the history of Dublin. Take one area, the South Circular road. At one time there were a lot of Jewish folks of all backgrounds living in the area because there was a synagogue. They moved out to the suburbs(or left for the US) over the last few decades and again concentrate near the synagogue. While back on the South Circular road, a mosque means there is now a concentration of Muslim folks of all backgrounds living in the area. It's what people overwhelmingly tend to do in nigh on every society that has or had multicultural elements(ancient Rome and early Muslim Baghdad and Istanbul being notable exceptions).

did you ever notice how people all tend to live on planet earth?

Atoms for Peace · 11-03-2019 08:05PM

sk8erboii wrote: »

Those are really bad examples mate. Japan became successful when it stopped its blockade in the late mid 19th century and let Americans and Europeans in for their industrial technology.

Saying china is insular is kinda racist, considering they consist of 56 ethnic groups. Unless you're saying they all look the same ?

Dunno about Korea.

Multiculturalism greatly facilitates the exchange of ideas. Its incredibly pedantic and self serving to say its not strictly MC, but how are you going to deal with Japanese electronics company if neither speaks the other's language?

Chinese multiculturalism hasn't been much fun for Tibet.

Wibbs · 11-03-2019 08:11PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

did you ever notice how people all tend to live on planet earth?

So completely avoid the point put to you, a point that is consistent throughout the history of minority ethnic groups within a society, especially in recent history, whenever this notion of "multiculturalism" has been tried out and come up with some random empty sentence that brings absolutely nothing to the debate? OK... It seems you can't refute the point. So how are you going to solve this problem of basic human nature? Hope? Holding hands? The power of prayer?

And this is a very common problem with those who are in favour of what they think is "multiculturalism". It sounds great to them, but they don't quite understand, or simply refuse to acknowledge, the clear dynamics of it and just stick with the it sounds great part.

Wibbs · 11-03-2019 08:15PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Chinese multiculturalism is hasn't been much for Tibet.

Never mind that he doesn't seem to understand that Japan while letting western ideas in, overall was and remains very much an ethnic monoculture. And what problems do they not have that the UK, France, Germany et al have(and it's beginning to kick off here)?

Or that China with her "56 ethnic groups" is and has been for a goodly time very much ruled by one and the rest are allowed to coexist so long as they stay in line.

Chris_Heilong · 11-03-2019 11:57PM

Not every culture is created equally, some are good and some are bad, We in Ireland have Irish culture, why do we want multiculturalism here? people from other countries yes but if you come here it is because you have decided that our culture is somewhere you would like to become a part of, not to colonize, not to create subcultures within a mono cultural society that only leads to fighting, crime and ghettos, Bring some of your flavor, yes, bring some of your language, sure but respect and learn as much as you can about your host country, do not expect the local culture to change for you. When a lot of people say 'multiculturalism is good' I think they misunderstand what it means and think it is something to do with multi-ethnic which is a completely different kettle of fish. Sorry if I offend the 'No Borders' extremists on here.

12-03-2019 11:54AM

The problem with these discussions is the inaccuracy of terminology. It would be more accurate to use a term like "multiracialism" instead if multiculturalism, as this is what it usually refers to, especially when you see how races behave in a culturally consistent way no matter where in the world they go. Culture is downstream from race, as politics is downstream from culture.

I can't add much more to what Wibbs has said above, save to add that what we call "multiculturalism" is the intermediate situation that prevails before one culture (race) dominates all others within a political region. Also, the least tolerant, least inclusive, least altruistic culture is the one that will win this contest. See the case of Savile Town in Yorkshire for a case study in how this plays out.

BeerWolf · 12-03-2019 12:47PM

I wonder... if the Aztec religion was still around, would we condone human sacrifices in the West to be PC?

jmayo · 12-03-2019 01:11PM

Multiculturalism has become a buzzword to explain and gloss over the failure of those of one particular religion to assimilate and integrate into Western culture.

The US used to be termed the Melting Pot as it was meant to describe the fusion of nationalities, cultures and ethnicities into a monocultural US.

Hence the whole thing of pushing the flag, having the kids pledge allegiance, etc was to create an Americanised mono culture.

Yes the US had problems, discrimination and ghettos but by and large it worked.

You can't have a successful peaceful state when you have subcultures refusing to integrate and even worse trying to set their own rules and boundaries.
And that is what so called modern multiculturalism in Europe is.

Of course some will play it down to mean we have different foods, different national and cultural celebrations, different religions and they all happily coexist.

Well they damn well don't happily coexist when one culture is demanding special treatment and being allowed make up their own rules.
All the while you have members almost trying to overthrow the state and subvert it's security.

topper75 · 12-03-2019 01:20PM

You don't need mass movement of people to facilitate idea or tech exchange.

An open mind and an open border are utterly different things with utterly different consequences.

I think the OP's piece confuses them.

Odhinn · 12-03-2019 01:23PM

jmayo wrote: »

Multiculturalism has become a buzzword to explain and gloss over the failure of those of one particular religion to assimilate and integrate into Western culture.

The US used to be termed the Melting Pot as it was meant to describe the fusion of nationalities, cultures and ethnicities into a monocultural US.

..........

Deja vu...

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/the-history-behind-famous-1889-anti-irish-puck-magazine-cartoon

gozunda · 12-03-2019 04:08PM

sk8erboii wrote: »

Hahahhahahahahahhaah The dark ages was a myth fed to sel books and DVDs. People advanced in this era by every metric.And shouldnt you be supporting the collapse of the (globalist) roman empire?

I presume you have not studied history then if you believe "People advanced in this era by every metric" (sic). You also fail to appear to understand the essential differences and impacts of trade and commerce compared to mass migrations of peoples. This has been been explained many times, but you continue to ignore it. Why is that?

I think that just like the word 'multicultural' you need to look up what 'globalist' actually means. Google is your friend lol ...

conorhal · 12-03-2019 07:46PM

gozunda wrote: »

I presume you have not studied history then if you believe "People advanced in this era by every metric" (sic). You also fail to appear to understand the essential differences and impacts of trade and commerce compared to mass migrations of peoples. This has been been explained many times, but you continue to ignore it. Why is that?

I think that just like the word 'multicultural' you need to look up what 'globalist' actually means. Google is your friend lol ...

You expect more from a poster that fails right in the title of the OP?
Apparently parroting the literal position of every state institution, political party, media organization and your MNC overlords ...in other words the entire establishment, constitutes a 'hot take' these days...

Here's a mindblower, not only can a multi-ethnic nation be mono-cultural, a mono-ethnic nation, like Luxembourg, for example can be multi-cultural.

sk8erboii · 12-03-2019 08:03PM

conorhal wrote: »

You expect more from a poster that fails right in the title of the OP?
Apparently parroting the literal position of every state institution, political party, media organization and your MNC overlords ...in other words the entire establishment, constitutes a 'hot take' these days...

Here's a mindblower, not only can a multi-ethnic nation be mono-cultural, a mono-ethnic nation, like Luxembourg, for example can be multi-cultural.

Its obviously hot enough to warrant 22 pages of exasperation from depressed white men

Hot take: Multiculturalism is good

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