Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Lemming · 09-03-2019 03:43PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Is there a way out of this for the UK?

If they revoke article 50 a lot of people will be infuriated and blame the EU for everything and try again.

GM228 wrote: »

No matter what happens I'm sure a lot of people will blame the EU for everything.

Listening to a local radio station here in Sheffield (well the radio station is somewhere around South Yorkshire or possibly N.Derbyshire; I don't know) whilst driving earlier and a young sounding (maybe very early twenties) woman caller to a show blamed the EU for all the knife crime in England at the moment. I have to say it's one thing to argue a point with someone, it's quite another to suffer a fool for the sake of being polite. Thicker than mince, and that's being unkind to mince.

The EU is already being blamed for everything and anything. Quite literally.

johnnyskeleton · 09-03-2019 03:47PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If there was a snap GE, May's Tory party would get 41% and Corbyn's Labour would get 30%. Corbyn is beyond useless.

They also have the option of voting Lib Dem or UKIP. If people really cared about Brexit or remaining they could vote for them. Suggesting that while Brexit is important for many, for most it is just one issue amongst many!

Lemming · 09-03-2019 03:47PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If there was a snap GE, May's Tory party would get 41% and Corbyn's Labour would get 30%. Corbyn is beyond useless.

Corbyn currently stands on the precipice of doing to the reputation of the Labour Party what Thatcher did to the Tories throughout the 80s for successive generations. What does it mean? I have no idea; only that voter disenfranchisement is going to reach crisis levels.

Mr.Wemmick · 09-03-2019 03:50PM

Lemming wrote: »

Listening to a local radio station here in Sheffield (well the radio station is somewhere around South Yorkshire or possibly N.Derbyshire; I don't know) whilst driving earlier and a young sounding (maybe very early twenties) woman caller to a show blamed the EU for all the knife crime in England at the moment. I have to say it's one thing to argue a point with someone, it's quite another to suffer a fool for the sake of being polite. Thicker than mince, and that's being unkind to mince.

The EU is already being blamed for everything and anything. Quite literally.

If that isn't a sign of a broken, divided country, I don't know what is..

Will they ever see that it is the policies implemented by their own governments have weakened infrastructure and services and left communities vulnerable? It's shocking that folks are so clueless. May is still feeding into that ignorance by riding on its coat tails and blaming the EU for her f*ck ups.

Professor Moriarty · 09-03-2019 03:52PM

Lemming wrote: »

Corbyn currently stands on the precipice of doing to the reputation of the Labour Party what Thatcher did to the Tories throughout the 80s for successive generations. What does it mean? I have no idea; only that voter disenfranchisement is going to reach crisis levels.

Exactly. this is long term damage. He's the ERG's best asset.

Lemming · 09-03-2019 03:56PM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

If that isn't a sign of a broken, divided country, I don't know what is..

Will they ever see that it is the policies implemented by their own governments have weakened infrastructure and services and left communities vulnerable? It's shocking that folks are so clueless. May is still feeding into that ignorance by riding on its coat tails and blaming the EU for her f*ck ups.

In fairness to the show, all the other callers were calling out government policies/cuts to policing/education/welfare/etc. for failure for young people with one caller from a social worker background making fascinating points about how drug gangs are grooming vulnerable children and "as skilled as social workers" in dealing with young people; that clown just came on the air with total WAHHOOOOOOOOOO stuff that was completely divorced from reality.

Professor Moriarty · 09-03-2019 03:58PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They also have the option of voting Lib Dem or UKIP. If people really cared about Brexit or remaining they could vote for them. Suggesting that while Brexit is important for many, for most it is just one issue amongst many!

The do but don't forget that it's a FPTP system. In some constituencies, it's pointless voting at all unless you are Tory or Labour and even then it might be pointless. This is the worst and most divided Tory government in decades led by an incompetent. And yet Corbyn's Labour is 11 points behind them. It's almost as if he is a Tory plant whose function is to undermine the Labour party from within.

Anteayer · 09-03-2019 04:00PM

Long time lurker, but decided to join up to give a bit of perspective having been over and back to England over the last few months.

I would still caution that unless you're travelling around England and getting talking to people from some of the midsized cities and towns, you're just reading the temperature in London and Manchester. This is exactly what happened ahead of the referendum and it looked like everything was going to be fine, with a pragmatic majority for remain.

There's huge and totally unwarranted anger directed towards the EU by quite a lot of people in England and it's just not rational. They've been buying into a rhetoric that blames the EU or "Brussels" for absolutely everything and that's been going on for decades. Even people who are otherwise very reasonable, often hold bizarre and unjustifiably negative views towards Europe. Some of it's about nationalism and the history of old imperialism and a touch of xenophobia, but most of it is just about having bought into absolute lies that were served up by the tabloids for going right back to the 1970s.

I really don't think most Irish people fully understand the view of the world from some of those towns because our window on the UK is largely British television, which is far more toned down and sane than the tabloids and some of the radio phone ins and so on. We also tend to have a view of England that's through a lens of big cities and more progressive areas of the country as, let's face it, not many people tend to want to move to old mining towns in the North of England or depressed former seaside resorts and so on.

Based on my perception of it (and I could be totally wrong but it's just a personal view), I think the international markets and even Irish commentators are grossly underestimating the likelihood of a crash out on the 29th of March. I don't really see things becoming more pragmatic and they've managed to bring the worst aspects of Northern Irish politics straight into the middle of it too, just to add to the mess.

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I am just dreading to think what the politics in England will be like if Brexit does happen in a chaotic way and you end up with harsh economic realities and a remain said saying "we told you so" while the Brexiteers will probably take it out on the EU claiming that they've been punished.

I just hope the country can manage to somehow stick itself back together again and find some kind of sane politics again, as otherwise, it's going to be a very rough couple of decades ahead.

Akrasia · 09-03-2019 04:01PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The do but don't forget that it's a FPTP system. In some constituencies, it's pointless voting at all unless you are Tory or Labour and even then it might be pointless. This is the worst and most divided Tory government in decades led by an incompetent. And yet Corbyn's Labour is 11 points behind them. It's almost as if he is a Tory plant whose function is to undermine the Labour party from within.

His biggest asset as leader was an enthusiastic, idealistic and young support base who he has done almost everything in his power to alienate since the last election.

Professor Moriarty · 09-03-2019 04:07PM

Akrasia wrote: »

His biggest asset as leader was an enthusiastic, idealistic and young support base who he has done almost everything in his power to alienate since the last election.

He's even too much of an ideologue for Momentum now.

Akrasia · 09-03-2019 04:09PM

Anteayer wrote: »

Long time lurker, but decided to join up to give a bit of perspective having been over and back to England over the last few months.

I would still caution that unless you're travelling around England and getting talking to people from some of the midsized cities and towns, you're just reading the temperature in London and Manchester. This is exactly what happened ahead of the referendum and it looked like everything was going to be fine, with a pragmatic majority for remain.

There's huge and totally unwarranted anger directed towards the EU by quite a lot of people in England and it's just not rational. They've been buying into a rhetoric that blames the EU or "Brussels" for absolutely everything and that's been going on for decades. Even people who are otherwise very reasonable, often hold bizarre and unjustifiably negative views towards Europe. Some of it's about nationalism and the history of old imperialism and a touch of xenophobia, but most of it is just about having bought into absolute lies that were served up by the tabloids for going right back to the 1970s.

I really don't think most Irish people fully understand the view of the world from some of those towns because our window on the UK is largely British television, which is far more toned down and sane than the tabloids and some of the radio phone ins and so on. We also tend to have a view of England that's through a lens of big cities and more progressive areas of the country as, let's face it, not many people tend to want to move to old mining towns in the North of England or depressed former seaside resorts and so on.

Based on my perception of it (and I could be totally wrong but it's just a personal view), I think the international markets and even Irish commentators are grossly underestimating the likelihood of a crash out on the 29th of March. I don't really see things becoming more pragmatic and they've managed to bring the worst aspects of Northern Irish politics straight into the middle of it too, just to add to the mess.

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I am just dreading to think what the politics in England will be like if Brexit does happen in a chaotic way and you end up with harsh economic realities and a remain said saying "we told you so" while the Brexiteers will probably take it out on the EU claiming that they've been punished.

I just hope the country can manage to somehow stick itself back together again and find some kind of sane politics again, as otherwise, it's going to be a very rough couple of decades ahead.

You're right that there is a big section of uk society who have been poisoned against the EU, but at the end of the day, the decision is now down to the House of Commons and the only thing there is a majority for in parliament is that a No Deal is not acceptable.

I think the likelyhood of a crash out is about 20% with a 30% chance May will get her deal passed before July and a 50% chance of a long extension and a 2nd referendum

20silkcut · 09-03-2019 04:13PM

Anteayer wrote: »

Long time lurker, but decided to join up to give a bit of perspective having been over and back to England over the last few months.

I would still caution that unless you're travelling around England and getting talking to people from some of the midsized cities and towns, you're just reading the temperature in London and Manchester. This is exactly what happened ahead of the referendum and it looked like everything was going to be fine, with a pragmatic majority for remain.

There's huge and totally unwarranted anger directed towards the EU by quite a lot of people in England and it's just not rational. They've been buying into a rhetoric that blames the EU or "Brussels" for absolutely everything and that's been going on for decades. Even people who are otherwise very reasonable, often hold bizarre and unjustifiably negative views towards Europe. Some of it's about nationalism and the history of old imperialism and a touch of xenophobia, but most of it is just about having bought into absolute lies that were served up by the tabloids for going right back to the 1970s.

I really don't think most Irish people fully understand the view of the world from some of those towns because our window on the UK is largely British television, which is far more toned down and sane than the tabloids and some of the radio phone ins and so on. We also tend to have a view of England that's through a lens of big cities and more progressive areas of the country as, let's face it, not many people tend to want to move to old mining towns in the North of England or depressed former seaside resorts and so on.

Based on my perception of it (and I could be totally wrong but it's just a personal view), I think the international markets and even Irish commentators are grossly underestimating the likelihood of a crash out on the 29th of March. I don't really see things becoming more pragmatic and they've managed to bring the worst aspects of Northern Irish politics straight into the middle of it too, just to add to the mess.

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I am just dreading to think what the politics in England will be like if Brexit does happen in a chaotic way and you end up with harsh economic realities and a remain said saying "we told you so" while the Brexiteers will probably take it out on the EU claiming that they've been punished.

I just hope the country can manage to somehow stick itself back together again and find some kind of sane politics again, as otherwise, it's going to be a very rough couple of decades ahead.

It is those very areas that are the economic dead weight of the U.K.
These are exactly the areas that economists for brexit and Patrick minford, JRM et al intend to leave behind in their future free trade post brexit shangri la.
No matter what happens London, Manchester etc will always be at the economic heart of the U.K.

johnnyskeleton · 09-03-2019 04:14PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The do but don't forget that it's a FPTP system. In some constituencies, it's pointless voting at all unless you are Tory or Labour and even then it might be pointless. This is the worst and most divided Tory government in decades led by an incompetent. And yet Corbyn's Labour is 11 points behind them. It's almost as if he is a Tory plant whose function is to undermine the Labour party from within.

Ironically it could work to the Lib Dems advantage if they could only raise their profile. They could take votes from both Labour and Tories and then just need approximately a third of the vote rather than nearly half the vote. In a given constituency with 60+% remain and leave labour and tory candidates. They could easily swing to Lib Dem as a once off to deal with Brexit if it was really important to them. The fact that they most often vote for the same two parties is their fault, not the consequence of the FPTP system itself.

Im firmly of the view that people get the government they deserve, and if they are not prepared to vote away from Tory/Labour at such an important time, then that is the government they deserve.

Proof of the pudding lies in Scotland, where in 2003 SNP only had 9 out of 78 seats. Now they have 59. If people really care enough they can change their government, even in FPTP

Strazdas · 09-03-2019 04:15PM

Anteayer wrote: »

Long time lurker, but decided to join up to give a bit of perspective having been over and back to England over the last few months.

I would still caution that unless you're travelling around England and getting talking to people from some of the midsized cities and towns, you're just reading the temperature in London and Manchester. This is exactly what happened ahead of the referendum and it looked like everything was going to be fine, with a pragmatic majority for remain.

There's huge and totally unwarranted anger directed towards the EU by quite a lot of people in England and it's just not rational. They've been buying into a rhetoric that blames the EU or "Brussels" for absolutely everything and that's been going on for decades. Even people who are otherwise very reasonable, often hold bizarre and unjustifiably negative views towards Europe. Some of it's about nationalism and the history of old imperialism and a touch of xenophobia, but most of it is just about having bought into absolute lies that were served up by the tabloids for going right back to the 1970s.

I really don't think most Irish people fully understand the view of the world from some of those towns because our window on the UK is largely British television, which is far more toned down and sane than the tabloids and some of the radio phone ins and so on. We also tend to have a view of England that's through a lens of big cities and more progressive areas of the country as, let's face it, not many people tend to want to move to old mining towns in the North of England or depressed former seaside resorts and so on.

Based on my perception of it (and I could be totally wrong but it's just a personal view), I think the international markets and even Irish commentators are grossly underestimating the likelihood of a crash out on the 29th of March. I don't really see things becoming more pragmatic and they've managed to bring the worst aspects of Northern Irish politics straight into the middle of it too, just to add to the mess.

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I am just dreading to think what the politics in England will be like if Brexit does happen in a chaotic way and you end up with harsh economic realities and a remain said saying "we told you so" while the Brexiteers will probably take it out on the EU claiming that they've been punished.

I just hope the country can manage to somehow stick itself back together again and find some kind of sane politics again, as otherwise, it's going to be a very rough couple of decades ahead.

It's been an accident waiting to happen. A dumbed down electorate, a poor education system, a feeling that Britain is the most important country in Europe and that everywhere else is inferior. Couple that with a lying, corrupt, trashy press feeding into people's prejudice and failed political system and you have the current debacle.

It's not that Britain has the appearance of being a basket case country at the moment, it genuinely is one. Everything has gone wrong at the same time. The fall from grace from being one of the most respected countries in the world has been shocking.

Anteayer · 09-03-2019 04:20PM

Akrasia wrote: »

You're right that there is a big section of uk society who have been poisoned against the EU, but at the end of the day, the decision is now down to the House of Commons and the only thing there is a majority for in parliament is that a No Deal is not acceptable.

I think the likelyhood of a crash out is about 20% with a 30% chance May will get her deal passed before July and a 50% chance of a long extension and a 2nd referendum

You can only hope they'll do something as they're currently hung-up on the backstop and the right wing of the tories seem to have managed to absorb the political position of the DUP. I could see a situation arising where it won't be a crash out, but rather a tumble out. I mean with the kind of comments coming from the Northern Secretary you'd really have to wonder what's going on. It's basically singing from the DUP's hymn sheet.

I think we're also overestimating the EU's patience on the issue. It's a HUGE deal in Ireland in the sense that we're the most proximate neighbour, but on the continent there's an emerging sense that this needs to be put to bed before it causes more instability.

I'm not saying they'll throw Ireland under a bus, but I don't think they're all that open to the UK dragging this out forever either as it's opening up domestic political issues for other countries too - notably Macron. If he doesn't get a solution to this, it will be used by Marine Le Pen as a large stick to beat him with for the next couple of years. She's already looking to take the largest share of French MEP seats this summer.

Professor Moriarty · 09-03-2019 04:26PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Ironically it could work to the Lib Dems advantage if they could only raise their profile. They could take votes from both Labour and Tories and then just need approximately a third of the vote rather than nearly half the vote. In a given constituency with 60+% remain and leave labour and tory candidates. They could easily swing to Lib Dem as a once off to deal with Brexit if it was really important to them. The fact that they most often vote for the same two parties is their fault, not the consequence of the FPTP system itself.

Im firmly of the view that people get the government they deserve, and if they are not prepared to vote away from Tory/Labour at such an important time, then that is the government they deserve.

Proof of the pudding lies in Scotland, where in 2003 SNP only had 9 out of 78 seats. Now they have 59. If people really care enough they can change their government, even in FPTP

Indeed they could but past evidence suggests that they won't deviate from the binary choice. There isn't the same need for a nationalist party in England as there is in Scotland as the Tories provide a home for English nationalism. So, it's essentially right versus left with the LIb Dems providing an element of centre. The only hope that the Lib Dems have is that Crobyn continues to alienate the softer left in Labour.

Anteayer · 09-03-2019 04:31PM

Strazdas wrote: »

It's been an accident waiting to happen. A dumbed down electorate, a poor education system, a feeling that Britain is the most important country in Europe and that everywhere else is inferior. Couple that with a lying, corrupt, trashy press feeding into people's prejudice and failed political system and you have the current debacle.

It's not that Britain has the appearance of being a basket case country at the moment, it genuinely is one. Everything has gone wrong at the same time. The fall from grace from being one of the most respected countries in the world has been shocking.

It's also worth remembering that many of the Brexiteers are genuinely very nice people who just have swallowed this stuff, hook line and sinker. It's often based around a notion of trying to return the country to some imagined version of the 'good old days' where things were simpler.

You've also got a lot of 'softer' Brexiteers who are more just fed up listening to this debate and want it over and done with. They're in some ways the most dangerous part as they don't understand any of the facts and don't want to listen to them either. It's the "oh how bad can it be ... let's just get on with it! The people spoke.."

In a lot of ways, I think the English remainers are failing to reach out to those people and bring them on board. You genuinely do get the sense that instead of trying to open a discussion, they're just shouting at them as if they're morons. That isn't shifting positions, it's putting people into bunkers.

I'd rather have seen the UK having debated this properly and gone through the kind of debates we did with the recent abortion and marriage referenda where you actually had a national discussion and things were fleshed out for a long time ahead of a referendum. I'm also not saying that Ireland's always been good at doing that, we'd some horrific referenda in the past too which provided us with totally screwed up policy for a long time. I do think we learnt a lot of lessons (the hard way) about how to do those kinds of debates though.

I just see very little evidence that people have come out of their bunkers in England and it's made worse by the way they tend to label themselves with 'working class' vs 'middle class' and North vs South or London vs Everyone else.

The whole thing needs to be re-run and the debate needs to be a lot calmer, but I just don't see that happening. It's way too bogged down at this stage and they've fed all the most poisonous parts of the discussion.

All of this stuff however is a discussion that should have been had several years ago. It's largely too late now.

Strazdas · 09-03-2019 04:48PM

Anteayer wrote: »

It's also worth remembering that many of the Brexiteers are genuinely very nice people who just have swallowed this stuff, hook line and sinker. It's often based around a notion of trying to return the country to some imagined version of the 'good old days' where things were simpler.

You've also got a lot of 'softer' Brexiteers who are more just fed up listening to this debate and want it over and done with. They're in some ways the most dangerous part as they don't understand any of the facts and don't want to listen to them either. It's the "oh how bad can it be ... let's just get on with it! The people spoke.."

In a lot of ways, I think the English remainers are failing to reach out to those people and bring them on board. You genuinely do get the sense that instead of trying to open a discussion, they're just shouting at them as if they're morons. That isn't shifting positions, it's putting people into bunkers.

I'd rather have seen the UK having debated this properly and gone through the kind of debates we did with the recent abortion and marriage referenda where you actually had a national discussion and things were fleshed out for a long time ahead of a referendum. I'm also not saying that Ireland's always been good at doing that, we'd some horrific referenda in the past too which provided us with totally screwed up policy for a long time. I do think we learnt a lot of lessons (the hard way) about how to do those kinds of debates though.

I just see very little evidence that people have come out of their bunkers in England and it's made worse by the way they tend to label themselves with 'working class' vs 'middle class' and North vs South or London vs Everyone else.

The whole thing needs to be re-run and the debate needs to be a lot calmer, but I just don't see that happening. It's way too bogged down at this stage and they've fed all the most poisonous parts of the discussion.

All of this stuff however is a discussion that should have been had several years ago. It's largely too late now.

That is true but you have to remember what happened in the months after the referendum. Leave voters were delirious in victory and shouting "Suck it up, losers" at anyone who had voted remain (and this was being reinforced to the max by the right wing press).....despite the fact it was only a wafer thin 'win'. All hope of compromise went out the window at that point.

The whole episode has been a catastrophe and an exercise in how not to hold a referendum.

Anteayer · 09-03-2019 04:57PM

Strazdas wrote: »

That is true but you have to remember what happened in the months after the referendum. Leave voters were delirious in victory and shouting "Suck it up, losers" at anyone who had voted remain (and this was being reinforced to the max by the right wing press).....despite the fact it was only a wafer thin 'win'. All hope of compromise went out the window at that point.

The whole episode has been a catastrophe and an exercise in how not to hold a referendum.

Well you’ve two parallel presses in England. Never do the two meet anywhere in the middle.

Ireland never had a big enough market to really develop those kinds of tabloid niches. Actually, on a global basis the UK tabloids are pretty unusual.

RobMc59 · 09-03-2019 04:58PM

Quote:Anteayer:"It's also worth remembering that many of the Brexiteers are genuinely very nice people who just have swallowed this stuff, hook line and sinker. It's often based around a notion of trying to return the country to some imagined version of the 'good old days' where things were simpler"

That is worryingly true-I was watching BBC news yesterday evening and there were some people being asked their opinion,their attitude was lets just get on with it-they weren't what you would label as "brexiteer loonies".

listermint · 09-03-2019 05:09PM

Lemming wrote: »

Listening to a local radio station here in Sheffield (well the radio station is somewhere around South Yorkshire or possibly N.Derbyshire; I don't know) whilst driving earlier and a young sounding (maybe very early twenties) woman caller to a show blamed the EU for all the knife crime in England at the moment. I have to say it's one thing to argue a point with someone, it's quite another to suffer a fool for the sake of being polite. Thicker than mince, and that's being unkind to mince.

The EU is already being blamed for everything and anything. Quite literally.

Hmm, New Strategy perhaps. Because i read on twitter that there was someone on the BBC saying the exact same thing in the last hour.

I dont think these things happen in isolation. There is a concerted effort in this. These 'normal people' callers are anything but.

Roanmore · 09-03-2019 05:19PM

listermint wrote: »

Hmm, New Strategy perhaps. Because i read on twitter that there was someone on the BBC saying the exact same thing in the last hour.

I dont think these things happen in isolation. There is a concerted effort in this. These 'normal people' callers are anything but.

I would love to see the logic of that arguement :rolleyes:

listermint · 09-03-2019 05:40PM

Roanmore wrote: »

I would love to see the logic of that arguement :rolleyes:

Well genius rollseyes.

We have Darren Grimes going around spending money that isn't is. We still don't know the origin of.

You have campaigns like this one right here. Fronted by an individual that doesn't have the means nor connections to fund them.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/mysterious-facebook-brexit-group-britains-future-tim-dawson

We have various women for leave campaigns going on fronted by people pretending to be normal house wives but are married to hugely wealthy equities traders and who run shoulders in Tory backer circles.

We have BBC question time audience packed with people pretending to be normal off the street individuals but they are ukip councillors or their assistants.

What I find perplexing is that you think these campaigns don't get people to phone into radio stations and appear on BBC shows pushing a narrative. And generally a fake made up one.

Over to you....

Roanmore · 09-03-2019 06:05PM

listermint wrote: »

Well genius rollseyes.

We have Darren Grimes going around spending money that isn't is. We still don't know the origin of.

You have campaigns like this one right here. Fronted by an individual that doesn't have the means nor connections to fund them.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/mysterious-facebook-brexit-group-britains-future-tim-dawson

We have various women for leave campaigns going on fronted by people pretending to be normal house wives but are married to hugely wealthy equities traders and who run shoulders in Tory backer circles.

We have BBC question time audience packed with people pretending to be normal off the street individuals but they are ukip councillors or their assistants.

What I find perplexing is that you think these campaigns don't get people to phone into radio stations and appear on BBC shows pushing a narrative. And generally a fake made up one.

Over to you....

Cool the jets I was talking about blaming the EU for knife crime

Laois_Man · 09-03-2019 06:17PM

SimonTemplar wrote: »

RTE was a bit sensationalist with that story. It got major breaking news prominence on RTE's website but little mention of it on BBC's.

Worse than that....those of us with the RTE NewsNow app got push notification of an offer to let the UK unilaterally end the backstop.....no context or other details. Gob****es!

Fr Tod Umptious · 09-03-2019 06:38PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Worse than that....those of us with the RTE NewsNow app got push notification of an offer to let the UK unilaterally end the backstop.....no context or other details. Gob****es!

I got that push notification and it clearly said exit the Customs Union, no mention of the backstop.

Laois_Man · 09-03-2019 06:48PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I got that push notification and it clearly said exit the Customs Union, no mention of the backstop.

What’s the difference. If all of the UK were to exit the Customs Union, they’re also exiting the backstop!

Lemming · 09-03-2019 06:51PM

Roanmore wrote: »

Cool the jets I was talking about blaming the EU for knife crime

I can't recall the specifics now, but her "logic" was an exceptionally twisted argument. Like someone has managed to bend the number 1 out of shape to try and argue it's really a 4; that sort of twisted. Tied to all sorts; immigration, economics etc., and then trying to warp it to fit the current topic which was somewhere between knife crime & the state of young people's resourcing & education today. It was so farcical as to be wildly obvious - like Russian "little green men" in the Ukraine obvious. Yet at every point her argument failed to account for the twin points of every claim listed was the decision making of British ministers, and that the EU does not - and never has done - set domestic agenda. Quite literally blame the EU for everything successive national politics has inflicted locally.

Spanish Eyes · 09-03-2019 06:52PM

Well reading things today, it seems that Andrea Leadsom is full on for blaming the EU for being so intransigent. Just paraphrasing here.

So the die is cast now, as many on here prophesised from the beginning.

UK is great, EU is bad. And although I wish it weren't so, it will filter into the minds of many that the EU is the bully. But then again, people like Leadsom are relying on the fact that many do not get politics in UK much, and rely on the MSM and people like her to justify their stance on this utter debacle.

Lemming · 09-03-2019 06:59PM

To be frank, they can play the blame game as much as they want; it wont change a thing, save to make them look even more impotent on the world stage. Imagine the tears and wailing that will be put forth with any negotiations with the likes of the US, Japan, China, or Mercursor who are all quite simply sharpening knives.Well, perhaps not China as they aren't even bothered.

Domestically, there's only so far you can carry the blame game before the electorate starts to ask why [insert-topic] is still sh1t and starts to see through the lies or simply doesn't care any more and just want whatever it is resolved. In the case of the last scenario there, that means coming full circle and having to face the very people you lied about in the first place and then explain to the electorate why you suddenly agreed to what you didn't agree to last time. Not a scenario conducive to political survival really.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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