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The UK and knife crime

2

Comments

  • #32
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Homicides in Eng & Wales have actually dropped by a third since 2002/3!
    I know it doesn't make good headlines for SkyNews and their fellow fear-mongers but...


    https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicide-in-england-and-wales-uk-y-on-y/


  • #33
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    Homicides in Eng & Wales have actually dropped by a third since 2002/3!
    I know it doesn't make good headlines for SkyNews and their fellow fear-mongers but...


    https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicide-in-england-and-wales-uk-y-on-y/

    there is more to knife crime that just homocide.

    Knife crime is up in the UK by 60% from 2014 to 2018.


  • #34
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    is it possible to get stats for baseball attacks?
    i bet it's gone thru the roof.


  • #35
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Two different statements lad. The majority of knife crime involved minority youths is very very different tomsaying Black people have a greater tendency toward violence.

    The first is stating a statistical fact, the other is suggesting that it’s ocurring because violence is an inherent trait in some races.

    Which is bollix.

    Poster didn't mention violence as an inherent trait of any particular race. It's absolutely a fairly toxic cultural issue however, within a sub-section of Black youth in London.


  • #36
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    Poster didn't mention violence as an inherent trait of any particular race. It's absolutely a fairly toxic cultural issue however, within a sub-section of Black youth in London.

    They said “the propensity for violence is higher amongst black and south-east Asian people.”

    That’s a racialised generalisation, also I don’t know how the poor old Filipinos and Vietnamese got tarred with it.

    Yes, there is an issue with knife crime amongst black youth. But it’s to do with social and economic issues not because they’re black.


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  • #37
    dvdman1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭dvdman1


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Then she’s a dope.
    Putting the reason entirely down to socio economic problems is lazy
    The poorest city in England is Bradford with a large immigrant/descendant community of asians, it's not a particularly great place but it doesn't have a big knif/gun problem...if we look at a similar population of blacks in a borough of London we have knife and gun crime.
    UK have large communities of polish and eastern European that aren't particularly well off but don't have these problems for the most part.
    Can we not at least look at why black and black caribbeans have crime problems beyond being poor.
    Why is the underachievement of black males so high?
    Its not racist to explore reasons...what's the culture in the home countries like? Jamaica has high knife/gun crime,has this culture been imported?
    Russian community's in north America have had a high knife crime statistics association.
    Are IQ levels linked to crime? Are large families linked to crime?
    Is race linked to crime? I'd say no but It's an area of debate before we come to conclusions.


  • #38
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    dvdman1 wrote: »
    Putting the reason entirely down to socio economic problems is lazy
    The poorest city in England is Bradford with a large immigrant/descendant community of asians, it's not a particularly great place but it doesn't have a big knif/gun problem...if we look at a similar population of blacks in a borough of London we have knife and gun crime.
    UK have large communities of polish and eastern European that aren't particularly well off but don't have these problems for the most part.
    Can we not at least look at why black and black caribbeans have crime problems beyond being poor.
    Why is the underachievement of black males so high?
    Its not racist to explore reasons...what's the culture in the home countries like? Jamaica has high knife/gun crime,has this culture been imported?
    Russian community's in north America have had a high knife crime statistics association.
    Are IQ levels linked to crime? Are large families linked to crime?
    Is race linked to crime? I'd say no but It's an area of debate before we come to conclusions.

    you do realise it is not PC to ask such questions & to explore such issues?


  • #39
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    from what i can gather, this only REALLY became a problem when 2 white "respectable", non-gangbanging kids were knifed.
    up to this the debate was very similar to what we get on these boards all the time in relation to travellers or dublin drug gang related crime.

    "so long as they are only killing each other, then who cares"

    then when one of us has been killed and now all of a sudden it's a major problem. SkyNews and others have gone overboard on this imo.
    Sky seems to be pushing the narrative "it's spreading to the leafy suburbs. none of our kids are safe now!"

    Apologies if i come across as a tad cynical.


  • #40
    Church on Tuesday
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Church on Tuesday


    Gang culture is a big thing over there, it's almost like a religion and a surrogate family for many that have been left behind in the more deprived areas and the two tier education system doesn't help matters either.


  • #41
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    AllForIt wrote: »
    It's because politicians like Diane Abbot argue that the very existence of lower working classes in London is a result of racism.

    Identity politics is imo very much responsible. Firstly you have a mostly black demographic and lower class one combined. 2 races in 1. Because every demographic is a race now you can't criticize the lower working class AND you can't criticize also because they are black. You can't say anything that could be interpreted as 'tarring everyone with the same brush'.

    This attitude over time has lead the knife crime community to believe that they are being persecuted and once they hear politicians stating such and see that it has become unacceptable to target their demographic they know they can now do the fuk they like init.

    In every single debate about this in the media commentators make excuses for what is essentially social breakdown and lawlessness, a reversal of what once was a more civilized community. Excuses are that there aren't enough police, areas are 'deprived', not enough youth clubs, and single parent families. I have even heard one person say that the gov have been splitting up families (just cause of a bitta domestic violence) and kids are being barred from school ( just for the trivial reason for disrupting classes). Every excuse under the sun except the actual one.

    One commentator complained that council estates exist beside wealthy areas. I'd rather live beside a wealthy area than another council estate. Areas are not deprived, they are horrible some of them because of the ppl living in them, the lower classes. You would think ppl who can't afford to house themselves in London which is a very expensive city (and full of opportunity) would be grateful to have the luxury of being provided accommodation at all but no, they feel aggrieved that other ppl are better off than them as if they think that wealthy people are being paid a higher social welfare rate, cause racism.

    Another commentator I heard talking sympathetically about the knife crime community said that middle-class drug users should be stopped and searched and 'thrown in prison' if found in possession. The language he used in relation to catching knife murderers is that 'he would like to see them apprehended'. This is the kind of nutty attitude that has directly led to this epidermic imo. When there was a heroin epidemic in Dublin it was the 'dealers' that were though to be utter scum of the earth not the users but in the UK it's thought to be the other way around. I'm still gobsmaked that sky news interviewed these gang member and that the report had a sympathetic understanding tone. Poor little drug dealing murders - and it's everyone else's fault except theirs.

    I could go on all day about this, a subject that infuriates me in large part become of the nutty commentary on the subject but what I am saying essentially is that I think this black lower class demographic has been / is being protected, and lawlessness is the result. Until this level of protection is lifted then there is no point in even discussing the matter.

    Trevor Philips spoke about this on sky news a few weeks ago, said its almost entirely a black youth problem but no one will admit it

    If we ever experience a copy of this, it will be even harder to deal with as the media in Ireland are even more PC than in the UK

    Kevin sharkey tried to highlight the issues with African youth gangs in Balbriggan and blanchardstown ( on the tonight show) and journalists ( professional PC merchant) colette browne cut him off and said there was zero evidence of the claim


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  • #42
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    from what i can gather, this only REALLY became a problem when 2 white "respectable", non-gangbanging kids were knifed.
    up to this the debate was very similar to what we get on these boards all the time in relation to travellers or dublin drug gang related crime.

    "so long as they are only killing each other, then who cares"

    then when one of us has been killed and now all of a sudden it's a major problem. SkyNews and others have gone overboard on this imo.
    Sky seems to be pushing the narrative "it's spreading to the leafy suburbs. none of our kids are safe now!"

    Apologies if i come across as a tad cynical.

    This is not a new problem. It is a problem that the UK government have been trying to come to terms with for a long time.


  • #43
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    quokula wrote: »
    It's the culmination of years of Tory austerity.

    Fewer police on the streets means perpetrators have no fear, drugs get onto the streets more easily, and more people are carrying knives for self defence. Fewer community services. No youth facilities. Schools cut to the bone so no support there. Parents more often relying on working multiple jobs to survive so less time with their kids. Lack of opportunities leading more people to turn to crime to put food on the table. Young people from poorer backgrounds are basically left to fend for themselves and drugs are often filling the gap - and drugs are pretty much always a factor in the stabbings that have happened.

    Places like Athens had far worse "austerity"

    Is knife crime a big issue there?


  • #44
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    from what i can gather, this only REALLY became a problem when 2 white "respectable", non-gangbanging kids were knifed.
    up to this the debate was very similar to what we get on these boards all the time in relation to travellers or dublin drug gang related crime.

    "so long as they are only killing each other, then who cares"

    then when one of us has been killed and now all of a sudden it's a major problem. SkyNews and others have gone overboard on this imo.
    Sky seems to be pushing the narrative "it's spreading to the leafy suburbs. none of our kids are safe now!"

    Apologies if i come across as a tad cynical.

    Ah no, a bit too cynical I'd say. Your talking about what's being reported in the last week or so. Most knife crime in London is black on black and has been widely reported and discussed in the media for quite some time now.


  • #45
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    dvdman1 wrote: »
    The propensity for violence is higher in non-white and non-south east asian population... police constables words to us after a colleague was stabbed, she went on to claim it was cultural...I couldn't agree/disagree as she was on the front line

    Propensity for violence is higher amongst travellers in Ireland, differences exist no matter what the left would have us believe


  • #46
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    This is not a new problem. It is a problem that the UK government have been trying to come to terms with for a long time.

    i agree it's nothing new.

    the main driver in this NOW being a major problem is, imo the deaths of 2 white kids just like us (black kids are different), and there is most likely an election around the corner. politicians dont want to be accused of doing nothing you know.


  • #47
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    FTA69 wrote: »
    They said “the propensity for violence is higher amongst black and south-east Asian people.”

    That’s a racialised generalisation, also I don’t know how the poor old Filipinos and Vietnamese got tarred with it.

    Yes, there is an issue with knife crime amongst black youth. But it’s to do with social and economic issues not because they’re black.

    It's also a "racialised generalisation" to say black Americans tend to be better at basketball, its also true


  • #48
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    there is more to knife crime that just homocide.

    Knife crime is up in the UK by 60% from 2014 to 2018.

    It's down in parts of scotland because they treat it as a public health issue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk
    “I was attacked right outside my house. I was stabbed nine times. When I looked up, my little boy was at the window. He had seen the whole thing.”

    These were the words of a young man I met in Glasgow last week. Involved in crime and violence throughout his youth, Callum has now turned his life around. But he didn’t do it alone.

    His second chance was the result of a decade of work in Scotland in which violence has been treated as a public health issue. Founded on one principle – that violence is not inevitable – the Scottish model has become the envy of the world, with violent crime reaching a 40-year low in the past few years.


  • #49
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    It's also a "racialised generalisation" to say black Americans tend to be better at basketball, its also true

    i hear you bro!



  • #50
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    FTA69 wrote: »
    They said “the propensity for violence is higher amongst black and south-east Asian people.”

    Different poster / wires crossed?

    This is the post you quoted:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109600939&postcount=23

    FTA69 wrote: »
    Yes, there is an issue with knife crime amongst black youth. But it’s to do with social and economic issues not because they’re black.

    Yet it's not nearly as apparent in other communities, who've experienced similar levels of deprivation & neglect. The more base aspects of Black youth culture in London are a very real contributing factor to boys bleeding out on the streets of their boroughs.


  • #51
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Ah no, a bit too cynical I'd say. Your talking about what's being reported in the last week or so. Most knife crime in London is black on black and has been widely reported and discussed in the media for quite some time now.

    they've talked around the issue for years.
    the debates if you can call them that usually end with some ageing grey-haired white criminologist spouting on about the lack of father figures, and the influence of drill music, and other contributors tutting in sympathy but conceding they don't really understand it cos it's a "black issue".


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  • #52
    Red_Wake
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Red_Wake


    Most of those crimes were actually committed with spoons.

    London Police just aren't very good at playing knifey spoony.


  • #53
    Dontfadeaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭Dontfadeaway


    Yousef was killed by a 17 year old, so why won't they name him? They named the 16 year old who killed the 6 year old girl. Scotland have different rules?


  • #54
    Maurice Yeltsin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 127 ✭✭Maurice Yeltsin


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_London#Homicide

    For all the headlines the murder rate was much worse in London nearly 30 years ago

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London#Population

    2 million less people in 1991 but 52 more murders than 2018!


  • #55
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,371 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    amcalester wrote: »
    Saw a lad get stabbed in a Shopping Center in Croydon years ago, he didn't seem too bothered by it. He just sat down and waited for the center security to call him an ambulance which they did.

    Occupational hazard for some people.

    Which shopping centre was it?


  • #56
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Maurice Yeltsin wrote: »
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_London#Homicide

    For all the headlines the murder rate was much worse in London nearly 30 years ago

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London#Population

    2 million less people in 1991 but 52 more murders than 2018!

    The thread is about knife crime not murders.


  • #57
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    For anyone arguing that knife crime is only a black-person's problem you should have a look north of the border to Scotland, and Glasgow in particular.

    For decades (actually possibly over a century) it had knife crime and murder rates well above the national average, often a multiple of it. People of Irish descent were involved in plenty of this violence.
    Obviously it wasn't a racial propensity for violence but the culture in Glasgow (and other parts of Scotland) certainly perpetuated knife crime.

    Very interestingly there has been a sustained drop in the last ten years, possibly due to initiatives like the Violence Reduction Unit (VRU) which England would do well to emulate.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-45572691


  • #58
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    For anyone arguing that knife crime is only a black-person's problem you should have a look north of the border to Scotland, and Glasgow in particular.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-45572691

    No one has argued that on this thread although I noticed some posters have mis-interpreted posts to mean that.


  • #59
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,577 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    For anyone arguing that knife crime is only a black-person's problem you should have a look north of the border to Scotland, and Glasgow in particular.

    Today, it is a black and enthic minority problem, you only have to look at the victims, and the attackers, across Ldn, Bir and Manc to see that.

    Throw in organised drug gangs who express their 'values' through the medium of drill music (calling that 'music' is being kind).

    Perhaps one reason it wasn't a black-persons problem, back in the 1980's, in a Glasgow of what 97% or so 'white Celts' many facing massive poverty/deprevations issues - is that there simply wasn't any notable black/ethnic population to begin with.


  • #60
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Kenley Fat Exterminator wrote: »
    Today, it is a black and enthic minority problem, you only have to look at the victims, and the attackers, across Ldn, Bir and Manc to see that.

    Throw in organised drug gangs who express their 'values' through the medium of drill music (calling that 'music' is being kind).

    Perhaps one reason it wasn't a black-persons problem, back in the 1980's, in a Glasgow of what 97% or so 'white Celts' many facing massive poverty/deprevations issues - is that there simply wasn't any notable black/ethnic population to begin with.

    Precisely.

    And the level of poverty in Glasgow was much worse than is the case in the areas of London where these gang members come from. They claim that because they are on the bottom of the economic spectrum that this represents 'inequality' when the reality is they haven't the first clue how to get on in life because of their social background and thus turn to crime enfolded by the notion that society has willfully played them a bad hand and thus feel justified in murdering people. A wretched micro society that is going to be very difficult to fix. It's no wonder some folk are suggesting they should do national service.


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  • #61
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Precisely.

    And the level of poverty in Glasgow was much worse than is the case in the areas of London where these gang members come from. They claim that because they are on the bottom of the economic spectrum that this represents 'inequality' when the reality is they haven't the first clue how to get on in life because of their social background and thus turn to crime enfolded by the notion that society has willfully played them a bad hand and thus feel justified in murdering people. A wretched micro society that is going to be very difficult to fix. It's no wonder some folk are suggesting they should do national service.

    National service? and turn them into trained killers. wow great idea. why not arm them too?

    England is a very racist society. i worked there for many years and witnessed it firsthand. it's not overt but more subtle racism.
    i worked in a Bank and the minute a black face walked in, the manager was on tenterhooks. i got to know a few of them, just general chit-chat and one day he pulled me oneside and wanted to know WTF i was doing. his exact words "you don't want to encourage them!"


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