The UK and knife crime

ricero

I was reading a special report and investigation by sky news today about the rise in knife crime in the UK and was shocked by how serious it has become. There is also rumours that the UK government may call a national emergency on the matter.

How have things gone so bad in the UK with knife crimes? I know the USA gets a lot of flack for gun crime but this seems near as bad and mainly a youth problem. Do they call for a banning of knives? Tough one to tackle as knives are so easy to acquire.

heebusjeebus

They cant ban knives.
Those who are using the knives will just change the weapon of choice (acid, screwdrivers or even sharpened toothbrush shivs).

myshirt

Well when you have Tory toffs commenting on how one would peel one's Orange at lunch time if knives were banned in schools, you're off to a bad start.

Tom Mann Centuria

ricero wrote: »

How have things gone so bad in the UK with knife crimes? .

20,000 less police on the streets. Reduction in stop and search, poorest communities left to rot, leading to increase in gangs filling the void.

Yamanoto

ricero wrote: »

How have things gone so bad in the UK with knife crimes? I know the USA gets a lot of flack for gun crime but this seems near as bad and mainly a youth problem.

Mainly a London problem with a pronounced ethnic slant. Feckless youths with weak mothers & fathers buggering off at the merest hint of a foetal heartbeat.

Recipe for success.

Force Carrier

heebusjeebus wrote: »

They cant ban knives.
Those who are using the knives will just change the weapon of choice (acid, screwdrivers or even sharpened toothbrush shivs).

Knives are already banned - in so much as you can't have one in public without a lawful reason. Same for other implements including the ones you mention.


If you had an orange in your pocket with the knife you might get away with it.

myshirt

Force Carrier wrote: »

Knives are already banned - in so much as you can't have one in public without a lawful reason. Same for other implements including the ones you mention.


If you had an orange in your pocket with the knife you might get away with it.

Correct, those Tories would peel an orange in their pocket.

amcalester

Saw a lad get stabbed in a Shopping Center in Croydon years ago, he didn't seem too bothered by it. He just sat down and waited for the center security to call him an ambulance which they did.

Occupational hazard for some people.

it's almost self perpetuating.

The papers make a big thing about gangs and knife crime, so youths feel they need to carry a knife to protect themselves.

The more knives are being carried, the more chance there is of someone getting stabbed.

Ficheall

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

20,000 less police on the streets.

I don't see how that could possibly have anything to do with it..

BrokenArrows

Ficheall wrote: »

I don't see how that could possibly have anything to do with it..

You dont see how less police on the streets leads to a rise in crime?

Of course its linked. Police response times to any crime are much slower over the past 10 years.

Ive heard stories recently where police haven't even bothered turning up to muggings, burglary etc after they find out that there is no serious harm. The excuse is that they have more serious things to deal with.

When criminals know the response times are lower then they take higher risks. Youths carry weapons because they know the chance of being stopped and searched is almost zero.

Even when stopped and searched, arrested and charged the courts given them a slap on the wrist because they dont have prison space due to years of increased crime.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

I live in London. My area isnt amazing but its not the worst by any stretch. However it has its problems. But you NEVER EVER EVER see police patrol at the times necessary.

You will see them strolling around on a nice sunny Sunday morning but never in the evenings and weekends when the problems are plain to see.

griffin100

This is worth a listen. The interview with the guy previously involved in knife crime is really interesting. Police don’t seem to register on their radar.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p072ky91

Sciprio

Yamanoto wrote: »

Mainly a London problem with a pronounced ethnic slant. Feckless youths with weak mothers & fathers buggering off at the merest hint of a foetal heartbeat.

Recipe for success.

We are getting some hints of that in Dublin, with wannabe gang members who seem to look up top and take inspiration from British gangs so we must keep an eye on that.

AllForIt

It's because politicians like Diane Abbot argue that the very existence of lower working classes in London is a result of racism.

Identity politics is imo very much responsible. Firstly you have a mostly black demographic and lower class one combined. 2 races in 1. Because every demographic is a race now you can't criticize the lower working class AND you can't criticize also because they are black. You can't say anything that could be interpreted as 'tarring everyone with the same brush'.

This attitude over time has lead the knife crime community to believe that they are being persecuted and once they hear politicians stating such and see that it has become unacceptable to target their demographic they know they can now do the fuk they like init.

In every single debate about this in the media commentators make excuses for what is essentially social breakdown and lawlessness, a reversal of what once was a more civilized community. Excuses are that there aren't enough police, areas are 'deprived', not enough youth clubs, and single parent families. I have even heard one person say that the gov have been splitting up families (just cause of a bitta domestic violence) and kids are being barred from school ( just for the trivial reason for disrupting classes). Every excuse under the sun except the actual one.

One commentator complained that council estates exist beside wealthy areas. I'd rather live beside a wealthy area than another council estate. Areas are not deprived, they are horrible some of them because of the ppl living in them, the lower classes. You would think ppl who can't afford to house themselves in London which is a very expensive city (and full of opportunity) would be grateful to have the luxury of being provided accommodation at all but no, they feel aggrieved that other ppl are better off than them as if they think that wealthy people are being paid a higher social welfare rate, cause racism.

Another commentator I heard talking sympathetically about the knife crime community said that middle-class drug users should be stopped and searched and 'thrown in prison' if found in possession. The language he used in relation to catching knife murderers is that 'he would like to see them apprehended'. This is the kind of nutty attitude that has directly led to this epidermic imo. When there was a heroin epidemic in Dublin it was the 'dealers' that were though to be utter scum of the earth not the users but in the UK it's thought to be the other way around. I'm still gobsmaked that sky news interviewed these gang member and that the report had a sympathetic understanding tone. Poor little drug dealing murders - and it's everyone else's fault except theirs.

I could go on all day about this, a subject that infuriates me in large part become of the nutty commentary on the subject but what I am saying essentially is that I think this black lower class demographic has been / is being protected, and lawlessness is the result. Until this level of protection is lifted then there is no point in even discussing the matter.

Harry Palmr

Like a lot of supposed epidemics the upsurge in knife killings can actually be isolated to pretty tightly - by geography, age, social class, ethnicity. Within these areas you get cause and effect spiralling as teens carry knives now as "protection" thus increasing their own chances of becoming a criminal or criminal statistic.

The powers that be have been degrading society for years now under the "austerity" ideology, schools are begging for money from parents, policing numbers have fallen 25% overall and probably more than that in areas that are considered hard work, social services generally have been greatly reduced - the witless, negligence that surrounded the Grenfell Tower disaster highlighted the failings of the state to the poor and marginal. To those who do not vote. Throw in the upsurge in drug use and the gang infrastructure that supports that and then people wonder why these things happen.

quokula

It's the culmination of years of Tory austerity.

Fewer police on the streets means perpetrators have no fear, drugs get onto the streets more easily, and more people are carrying knives for self defence. Fewer community services. No youth facilities. Schools cut to the bone so no support there. Parents more often relying on working multiple jobs to survive so less time with their kids. Lack of opportunities leading more people to turn to crime to put food on the table. Young people from poorer backgrounds are basically left to fend for themselves and drugs are often filling the gap - and drugs are pretty much always a factor in the stabbings that have happened.

chrissb8

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

20,000 less police on the streets. Reduction in stop and search, poorest communities left to rot, leading to increase in gangs filling the void.

Nail on the head. Just having a police presence in an area does massive amounts to deter crime.

Your Face

Im sure how to solve the problem but I'd take a stab at it.

Stab, ladies and gentlemen.


Ahh you kids don't know comedy.

FTA69

Contrary to popular belief it seems being black doesn’t automatically give you a mental disposition toward stabbing people.

There are reasons violence and gang culture take place. We have overcrowding due to unaffordable rents which thus pushes teenagers onto the streets; in the public domain most youth centres and the like have been shut down with little or no affordable facilities for young people.

Exclusions from school are on the up as support systems in education for at risk youth have been slashed or abolished thus leading to an increase in bad behaviour with expulsions the only recourse.

There is a stark rich/poor divide in London with the only work available to young people often being precarious and poverty-waged work in crap jobs.

Lastly, policing has been slashed to the bone which the cops are up in arms about. They literally have no resources to do their job.

In short, austerity is a major factor in this coming about. Race isn’t a factor in whether someone becomes involved in gangs or not; it’s social and economic - the same way it was for Irish migrants in New York in the 1850s or white Scottish teens in glasgow in the 1990s.

dvdman1

The propensity for violence is higher in non-white and non-south east asian population... police constables words to us after a colleague was stabbed, she went on to claim it was cultural...I couldn't agree/disagree as she was on the front line

FTA69

dvdman1 wrote: »

The propensity for violence is higher in non-white and non-south east asian population... police constables words to us after a colleague was stabbed, she went on to claim it was cultural...I couldn't agree/disagree as she was on the front line

A cop with racist opinions? I’m shocked.

ohnonotgmail

FTA69 wrote: »

A cop with racist opinions? I’m shocked.

Or maybe they were just relating what they experienced in their job? Two thirds of knife offenders under 25 in London were black or minority ethnic.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mopac_justice_matters_13_march_2018_disproportionality_slides.pdf#page=11

So it seems that the problem is disproportionately with black youths. that is not racist. that is just stating a fact.

FTA69

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Or maybe they were just relating what they experienced in their job? Two thirds of knife offenders under 25 in London were black or minority ethnic.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mopac_justice_matters_13_march_2018_disproportionality_slides.pdf#page=11

So it seems that the problem is disproportionately with black youths. that is not racist. that is just stating a fact.

Two different statements lad. The majority of knife crime involved minority youths is very very different tomsaying Black people have a greater tendency toward violence.

The first is stating a statistical fact, the other is suggesting that it’s ocurring because violence is an inherent trait in some races.

Which is bollix.

Wheres Me Jumper?

i blame Brexit.

dvdman1

FTA69 wrote: »

A cop with racist opinions? I’m shocked.

She may be guilty of generalisation but she was black.

jimgoose

dvdman1 wrote: »

She may be guilty of generalisation but she was black.

She's "Color Struck". Off with her head!!

FTA69

dvdman1 wrote: »

She may be guilty of generalisation but she was black.

Then she’s a dope.

ancapailldorcha

Police here have been cut to the bone.

Anecdotal but the house I live in was broken into recently during the day. There's a large police station about 10-15 minutes drive away. The burglar was in the house for an hour and a half. I know this because one of my housemates ran into him on the stairs and had to barricade herself in the bedroom and ring the emergency services. Police turned up about 90 minutes later.

Wheres Me Jumper?

the UK's murder rate is the same as it was in 2008, but if you were to listen/watch the fear-mongering of the loony-left you'ld be forgiven for thinking it was the Wild West not the West End, and it was Beirut not Birmingham

dundalkfc10

3 attacks in the main street of Dundalk in last 3 days, 2 were with knifes (as reported On the local papers website)

I can guarantee all the scumbags involved have loads previous convictions and not one will see the inside of a jail!

We are just as bad over here!

PCeeeee

FTA69 wrote: »

Then she’s a dope.

If only she could have spoken to you before she made her comments.

Wheres Me Jumper?

Homicides in Eng & Wales have actually dropped by a third since 2002/3!
I know it doesn't make good headlines for SkyNews and their fellow fear-mongers but...


https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicide-in-england-and-wales-uk-y-on-y/

ohnonotgmail

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

Homicides in Eng & Wales have actually dropped by a third since 2002/3!
I know it doesn't make good headlines for SkyNews and their fellow fear-mongers but...


https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicide-in-england-and-wales-uk-y-on-y/

there is more to knife crime that just homocide.

Knife crime is up in the UK by 60% from 2014 to 2018.

Wheres Me Jumper?

is it possible to get stats for baseball attacks?
i bet it's gone thru the roof.

Yamanoto

FTA69 wrote: »

Two different statements lad. The majority of knife crime involved minority youths is very very different tomsaying Black people have a greater tendency toward violence.

The first is stating a statistical fact, the other is suggesting that it’s ocurring because violence is an inherent trait in some races.

Which is bollix.

Poster didn't mention violence as an inherent trait of any particular race. It's absolutely a fairly toxic cultural issue however, within a sub-section of Black youth in London.

FTA69

Yamanoto wrote: »

Poster didn't mention violence as an inherent trait of any particular race. It's absolutely a fairly toxic cultural issue however, within a sub-section of Black youth in London.

They said “the propensity for violence is higher amongst black and south-east Asian people.”

That’s a racialised generalisation, also I don’t know how the poor old Filipinos and Vietnamese got tarred with it.

Yes, there is an issue with knife crime amongst black youth. But it’s to do with social and economic issues not because they’re black.

dvdman1

FTA69 wrote: »

Then she’s a dope.

Putting the reason entirely down to socio economic problems is lazy
The poorest city in England is Bradford with a large immigrant/descendant community of asians, it's not a particularly great place but it doesn't have a big knif/gun problem...if we look at a similar population of blacks in a borough of London we have knife and gun crime.
UK have large communities of polish and eastern European that aren't particularly well off but don't have these problems for the most part.
Can we not at least look at why black and black caribbeans have crime problems beyond being poor.
Why is the underachievement of black males so high?
Its not racist to explore reasons...what's the culture in the home countries like? Jamaica has high knife/gun crime,has this culture been imported?
Russian community's in north America have had a high knife crime statistics association.
Are IQ levels linked to crime? Are large families linked to crime?
Is race linked to crime? I'd say no but It's an area of debate before we come to conclusions.

Wheres Me Jumper?

dvdman1 wrote: »

Putting the reason entirely down to socio economic problems is lazy
The poorest city in England is Bradford with a large immigrant/descendant community of asians, it's not a particularly great place but it doesn't have a big knif/gun problem...if we look at a similar population of blacks in a borough of London we have knife and gun crime.
UK have large communities of polish and eastern European that aren't particularly well off but don't have these problems for the most part.
Can we not at least look at why black and black caribbeans have crime problems beyond being poor.
Why is the underachievement of black males so high?
Its not racist to explore reasons...what's the culture in the home countries like? Jamaica has high knife/gun crime,has this culture been imported?
Russian community's in north America have had a high knife crime statistics association.
Are IQ levels linked to crime? Are large families linked to crime?
Is race linked to crime? I'd say no but It's an area of debate before we come to conclusions.

you do realise it is not PC to ask such questions & to explore such issues?

Wheres Me Jumper?

from what i can gather, this only REALLY became a problem when 2 white "respectable", non-gangbanging kids were knifed.
up to this the debate was very similar to what we get on these boards all the time in relation to travellers or dublin drug gang related crime.

"so long as they are only killing each other, then who cares"

then when one of us has been killed and now all of a sudden it's a major problem. SkyNews and others have gone overboard on this imo.
Sky seems to be pushing the narrative "it's spreading to the leafy suburbs. none of our kids are safe now!"

Apologies if i come across as a tad cynical.

Church on Tuesday

Gang culture is a big thing over there, it's almost like a religion and a surrogate family for many that have been left behind in the more deprived areas and the two tier education system doesn't help matters either.

Mad_maxx

AllForIt wrote: »

It's because politicians like Diane Abbot argue that the very existence of lower working classes in London is a result of racism.

Identity politics is imo very much responsible. Firstly you have a mostly black demographic and lower class one combined. 2 races in 1. Because every demographic is a race now you can't criticize the lower working class AND you can't criticize also because they are black. You can't say anything that could be interpreted as 'tarring everyone with the same brush'.

This attitude over time has lead the knife crime community to believe that they are being persecuted and once they hear politicians stating such and see that it has become unacceptable to target their demographic they know they can now do the fuk they like init.

In every single debate about this in the media commentators make excuses for what is essentially social breakdown and lawlessness, a reversal of what once was a more civilized community. Excuses are that there aren't enough police, areas are 'deprived', not enough youth clubs, and single parent families. I have even heard one person say that the gov have been splitting up families (just cause of a bitta domestic violence) and kids are being barred from school ( just for the trivial reason for disrupting classes). Every excuse under the sun except the actual one.

One commentator complained that council estates exist beside wealthy areas. I'd rather live beside a wealthy area than another council estate. Areas are not deprived, they are horrible some of them because of the ppl living in them, the lower classes. You would think ppl who can't afford to house themselves in London which is a very expensive city (and full of opportunity) would be grateful to have the luxury of being provided accommodation at all but no, they feel aggrieved that other ppl are better off than them as if they think that wealthy people are being paid a higher social welfare rate, cause racism.

Another commentator I heard talking sympathetically about the knife crime community said that middle-class drug users should be stopped and searched and 'thrown in prison' if found in possession. The language he used in relation to catching knife murderers is that 'he would like to see them apprehended'. This is the kind of nutty attitude that has directly led to this epidermic imo. When there was a heroin epidemic in Dublin it was the 'dealers' that were though to be utter scum of the earth not the users but in the UK it's thought to be the other way around. I'm still gobsmaked that sky news interviewed these gang member and that the report had a sympathetic understanding tone. Poor little drug dealing murders - and it's everyone else's fault except theirs.

I could go on all day about this, a subject that infuriates me in large part become of the nutty commentary on the subject but what I am saying essentially is that I think this black lower class demographic has been / is being protected, and lawlessness is the result. Until this level of protection is lifted then there is no point in even discussing the matter.

Trevor Philips spoke about this on sky news a few weeks ago, said its almost entirely a black youth problem but no one will admit it

If we ever experience a copy of this, it will be even harder to deal with as the media in Ireland are even more PC than in the UK

Kevin sharkey tried to highlight the issues with African youth gangs in Balbriggan and blanchardstown ( on the tonight show) and journalists ( professional PC merchant) colette browne cut him off and said there was zero evidence of the claim

ohnonotgmail

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

from what i can gather, this only REALLY became a problem when 2 white "respectable", non-gangbanging kids were knifed.
up to this the debate was very similar to what we get on these boards all the time in relation to travellers or dublin drug gang related crime.

"so long as they are only killing each other, then who cares"

then when one of us has been killed and now all of a sudden it's a major problem. SkyNews and others have gone overboard on this imo.
Sky seems to be pushing the narrative "it's spreading to the leafy suburbs. none of our kids are safe now!"

Apologies if i come across as a tad cynical.

This is not a new problem. It is a problem that the UK government have been trying to come to terms with for a long time.

Mad_maxx

quokula wrote: »

It's the culmination of years of Tory austerity.

Fewer police on the streets means perpetrators have no fear, drugs get onto the streets more easily, and more people are carrying knives for self defence. Fewer community services. No youth facilities. Schools cut to the bone so no support there. Parents more often relying on working multiple jobs to survive so less time with their kids. Lack of opportunities leading more people to turn to crime to put food on the table. Young people from poorer backgrounds are basically left to fend for themselves and drugs are often filling the gap - and drugs are pretty much always a factor in the stabbings that have happened.

Places like Athens had far worse "austerity"

Is knife crime a big issue there?

AllForIt

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

from what i can gather, this only REALLY became a problem when 2 white "respectable", non-gangbanging kids were knifed.
up to this the debate was very similar to what we get on these boards all the time in relation to travellers or dublin drug gang related crime.

"so long as they are only killing each other, then who cares"

then when one of us has been killed and now all of a sudden it's a major problem. SkyNews and others have gone overboard on this imo.
Sky seems to be pushing the narrative "it's spreading to the leafy suburbs. none of our kids are safe now!"

Apologies if i come across as a tad cynical.

Ah no, a bit too cynical I'd say. Your talking about what's being reported in the last week or so. Most knife crime in London is black on black and has been widely reported and discussed in the media for quite some time now.

Mad_maxx

dvdman1 wrote: »

The propensity for violence is higher in non-white and non-south east asian population... police constables words to us after a colleague was stabbed, she went on to claim it was cultural...I couldn't agree/disagree as she was on the front line

Propensity for violence is higher amongst travellers in Ireland, differences exist no matter what the left would have us believe

Wheres Me Jumper?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

This is not a new problem. It is a problem that the UK government have been trying to come to terms with for a long time.

i agree it's nothing new.

the main driver in this NOW being a major problem is, imo the deaths of 2 white kids just like us (black kids are different), and there is most likely an election around the corner. politicians dont want to be accused of doing nothing you know.

Mad_maxx

FTA69 wrote: »

They said “the propensity for violence is higher amongst black and south-east Asian people.”

That’s a racialised generalisation, also I don’t know how the poor old Filipinos and Vietnamese got tarred with it.

Yes, there is an issue with knife crime amongst black youth. But it’s to do with social and economic issues not because they’re black.

It's also a "racialised generalisation" to say black Americans tend to be better at basketball, its also true

Grayson

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there is more to knife crime that just homocide.

Knife crime is up in the UK by 60% from 2014 to 2018.

It's down in parts of scotland because they treat it as a public health issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk

“I was attacked right outside my house. I was stabbed nine times. When I looked up, my little boy was at the window. He had seen the whole thing.”

These were the words of a young man I met in Glasgow last week. Involved in crime and violence throughout his youth, Callum has now turned his life around. But he didn’t do it alone.

His second chance was the result of a decade of work in Scotland in which violence has been treated as a public health issue. Founded on one principle – that violence is not inevitable – the Scottish model has become the envy of the world, with violent crime reaching a 40-year low in the past few years.

Wheres Me Jumper?

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's also a "racialised generalisation" to say black Americans tend to be better at basketball, its also true

i hear you bro!

Yamanoto

FTA69 wrote: »

They said “the propensity for violence is higher amongst black and south-east Asian people.”

Different poster / wires crossed?

This is the post you quoted:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109600939&postcount=23

FTA69 wrote: »

Yes, there is an issue with knife crime amongst black youth. But it’s to do with social and economic issues not because they’re black.

Yet it's not nearly as apparent in other communities, who've experienced similar levels of deprivation & neglect. The more base aspects of Black youth culture in London are a very real contributing factor to boys bleeding out on the streets of their boroughs.

Wheres Me Jumper?

AllForIt wrote: »

Ah no, a bit too cynical I'd say. Your talking about what's being reported in the last week or so. Most knife crime in London is black on black and has been widely reported and discussed in the media for quite some time now.

they've talked around the issue for years.
the debates if you can call them that usually end with some ageing grey-haired white criminologist spouting on about the lack of father figures, and the influence of drill music, and other contributors tutting in sympathy but conceding they don't really understand it cos it's a "black issue".