Irish Coast Guard Helicopters not licensed to land on helipads ?

ibebanging · 02-03-2019 7:40pm #1

How can this be ? Are these type of helicopters not used on oil rigs and helipads all over the world ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/coast-guard-cant-land-its-helicopters-on-national-childrens-hospital-roof-37870682.html

NIMAN · 02-03-2019 7:45pm

Wrt the children's hospital debacle, I remember one of the points raised was that the big rescue helicopters (sea king?) were too large for a roof based helipads, too heavy.

Pads have to have special reinforcing done to accept these helicopters,unless they are on solid ground rather than a roof.

So I'd say they aren't authorised to land on roof based helipads.

Odyssey 2005 · 02-03-2019 7:49pm

Another Simon Harris fuk up

the_syco · 02-03-2019 7:53pm

ibebanging wrote: »

How can this be ? Are these type of helicopters not used on oil rigs and helipads all over the world ?

It's 7 tonne empty, 12 tonne when full. Seems the helipads were built to suport one sort of helicopter, but not the coasties chopper.

I'm thinking someone went looking for dirt to throw at the design, tbh.

gctest50 · 02-03-2019 7:54pm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Another Simon Harris fuk up

It's not a great idea anyway landing a large helicopter on the roof.

If they get it wrong and crash into the building many patients might die

kub · 02-03-2019 7:57pm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Another Simon Harris fuk up

I never knew he worked for CHC Ireland.

dhaughton99 · 02-03-2019 8:01pm

Can’t see many buildings be allowed to land such a big chopper on their roof anywhere in the world.

IngazZagni · 02-03-2019 8:16pm

This was known for years. Children can be transported with other smaller helicopters if needs be. Emergencies and they will be treated in regular hospitals initially.

davetherave · 02-03-2019 8:34pm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Another Simon Harris fuk up

Nothing to do with Simon Harris to be fair.

The aircraft operated by the ICG does not have a profile that would allow it to operate Performance Class 1 to an elevated heliport. The Brits have the same problem

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/539673/helicopter-too-big-hospital-helipads-department-transport

Standards for helicopter landing areas at hospitals

elperello · 02-03-2019 8:44pm

The fact remains that if the children's hospital had been built on a less restricted site it could have been designed to be accessible to all helicopters.

02-03-2019 8:55pm

elperello wrote: »

The fact remains that if the children's hospital had been built on a less restricted site it could have been designed to be accessible to all helicopters.

Very very true. But you have now got a massive staffing issue because a very large percentage of vital staff live near the current hospitals site if you move it to a greenfield site. Nothing is ever simple.

billy few mates · 02-03-2019 8:59pm

elperello wrote: »

The fact remains that if the children's hospital had been built on a less restricted site it could have been designed to be accessible to all helicopters.

Just because they can't land on the roof doesn't make it inaccessible to helicopters. It's far cheaper and safer to have the helipad on the ground anyway...

Odyssey 2005 · 02-03-2019 9:00pm

davetherave wrote: »

Nothing to do with Simon Harris to be fair.

The aircraft operated by the ICG does not have a profile that would allow it to operate Performance Class 1 to an elevated heliport. The Brits have the same problem

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/539673/helicopter-too-big-hospital-helipads-department-transport

Standards for helicopter landing areas at hospitals

I'm not dissing CHC. Totally agree that the s92 can't land on a roof...no problem there. The problem I have is this is a brand new probably €2bn hospital and only one (1) out of a possible five emergency casualty helicopters can land on site. Absolute bonkers...

elperello · 02-03-2019 10:12pm

billy few mates wrote: »

Just because they can't land on the roof doesn't make it inaccessible to helicopters. It's far cheaper and safer to have the helipad on the ground anyway...

The current plan is to land at Royal Hospital Kilmainham and transfer by ambulance.
Given traffic etc. this is a suboptimal solution.

mickdw · 02-03-2019 10:21pm

The coastguard choppers only appear to be allowed land at designated areas whereas the army ones that also do medical emergency lifts seem to be allowed to land anywhere.
Here where I live, we have the situation where casualty has to be taken by ambulance for up to half hour to coastguard refueling depot to then be taken by helicopter to hospital. It's a delay that could be difference between life and death. Army on the other hand will land in field outside house. In this remote location where there could be a long wait for an ambulance, this lack of ability to land local to casualty means the entire benefit of the helicopter is being lost - in many cases helicopter arrives after 30 mins and can sit for 1 hour awaiting ambulance.

Phileas Frog · 02-03-2019 11:20pm

Would you prefer that the SAR helicopters be able to rescue someone from 250 miles offshore, which is part of their primary role, or land on the roof of a hospital?

notharrypotter · 02-03-2019 11:32pm

mickdw wrote: »

The coastguard choppers only appear to be allowed land at designated areas whereas the army ones that also do medical emergency lifts seem to be allowed to land anywhere.

Incorrect the Aer Corp Helicopters will only land at certain sites which they are sure are free from obstacles (GAA grounds typically).

gctest50 · 02-03-2019 11:43pm

notharrypotter wrote: »

Incorrect the Aer Corp Helicopters will only land at certain sites which they are sure are free from obstacles (GAA grounds typically).

The Aer Corp guide dogs are getting on in years and can't always alert the half-blind pilots to the presence of ESB poles

others do it without taking out the lamp post or the dormer window

Psychlops · 03-03-2019 12:28am

Both the Irish Coast Guard & Irish Air Corps EAS do land at surveyed approved "sites" but they (IAC/IRCG) also land in confined areas/Farmyards/Construction sites wherever for HEMS/EAS taskings as IRCG & IAC both do HEMS & have been tasked to the same incident many a time.
This is seen on any one of their Facebook pages where 112/115/116/117/118 have landed on tight country roadways no hassle at all.

With regards to the UK pads, the problem there was that they were built as far as I know to accommodate up to the Seaking as that was in service with the RAF & RN, but when the Military stopped SAR then the UK HMCG acquired the S92 & the pads simply can not take the weight of an S92.

https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/photos/a.1646347948948735/1854371571479704/?type=3&theatre

https://www.facebook.com/Rescue118/photos/a.124619274302213/1890747487689374/?type=3&theatre

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153636083563867&set=pb.717783866.-2207520000.1551569813.&type=3&theater

LeChienMefiant · 03-03-2019 2:07pm

Does any existing hospital have a dedicated helipad that can accommodate the S92? This seems like the typical fake news negative PR that is so popular at the moment.

mickdw · 03-03-2019 2:49pm

notharrypotter wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

The coastguard choppers only appear to be allowed land at designated areas whereas the army ones that also do medical emergency lifts seem to be allowed to land anywhere.

Incorrect the Aer Corp Helicopters will only land at certain sites which they are sure are free from obstacles (GAA grounds typically).

Ok well freedom to land at gaa sites means about 10 local landing sites as opposed to 1 or 2 for coast guard.

Odyssey 2005 · 03-03-2019 2:55pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Does any existing hospital have a dedicated helipad that can accommodate the S92? This seems like the typical fake news negative PR that is so popular at the moment.

Don't really understand your 2nd point, but as far as I know kerry and Galway hospital are the only hospitals with pads on site that can accommodate the S92.

LeChienMefiant · 03-03-2019 3:00pm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Don't really understand your 2nd point, but as far as I know kerry and Galway hospital are the only hospitals with pads on site that can accommodate the S92.

There is a PR campaign against the children's hospital being located where it is.

ED E · 03-03-2019 3:16pm

dhaughton99 wrote: »

Can’t see many buildings be allowed to land such a big chopper on their roof anywhere in the world.

Rooftop landings are not uncommon in the UK. Our guys do it too (AC not CHC in this case)
https://twitter.com/IrishAirCorps/status/1092494208013877248

The AW is lighter but not THAT much lighter. And the crash landing risk would be similar.

elperello wrote: »

The fact remains that if the children's hospital had been built on a less restricted site it could have been designed to be accessible to all helicopters.

The question is why aren't others?

Yes the rehab hosp has a pad thats serviceable, UHG does too. Beaumont? Land in a f#cking park. CUH? The same (they're trying to fix that now). We're sending out S92s 200km into the sea to recover badly injured persons only to do the last mile transfer by ambo wasting time.

IMO, as a non pilot looking on, we should have:
A. Got less SAR and more EAS when the CHC contract was last renewed. 24hr cover from Baldonnel would serve the nation better than massive standby SAR cover for ocean work. Maybe one helimed for small spaces like Motorway collisions, EC145 or similar. Get neural trauma calls quickly from the north/west/south to Dublin
B. During the period of that contract make pads serviceable at all trauma hospitals in the country.

Adult and Mixed Emergency Departments
Mater Misericordiae University Hospital
St. James’s Hospital
St. Vincent’s University Hospital
Tallaght Hospital - Adults
Beaumont Hospital
Connolly Hospital
Naas General Hospital
Cork University Hospital
University Hospital Galway
Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda
University Hospital Limerick
University Hospital Waterford
Sligo University Hospital
Midland Regional Hospital Tullamore
Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan
Cavan General Hospital
University Hospital Kerry
Wexford General Hospital
Letterkenny University Hospital
Mayo University Hospital
Midland Regional Hospital Mullingar
St Luke’s Hospital Kilkenny
Portiuncula University Hospital Ballinasloe
Midland Regional Hospital Portlaoise
Mercy University Hospital Cork
South Tipperary General Hospital

Paediatric Only Emergency Departments
Children’s University Hospital Temple St.
Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, Crumlin
Tallaght Hospital - Children

A few of these are screwed by location (Temple street, Mater) but with some enthusiasm and effort ground pads instead of a few car parking spaces is a no brainer. CPO the space if you need to. Golden Hour etc.

faoiarvok · 03-03-2019 3:34pm

ED E wrote: »

The AW is lighter but not THAT much lighter. And the crash landing risk would be similar.

The AW139's max take off weight is ~5.5 tonnes less than (or 55% that of) the S-92

faoiarvok · 03-03-2019 3:39pm

gctest50 wrote: »

The Aer Corp guide dogs are getting on in years and can't always alert the half-blind pilots to the presence of ESB poles

others do it without taking out the lamp post or the dormer window

ADAC helicopters aren't immune to hitting wires, cars or skatepark rails. Are their pilots "half-blind" in your estimation too?

ED E · 03-03-2019 3:44pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

The AW139's max take off weight is ~5.5 tonnes less than (or 55% that of) the S-92

'tinternet says 6.4 metric but I somehow had a higher number in my head.

faoiarvok · 03-03-2019 3:45pm

ED E wrote: »

'tinternet says 6.4 metric but I somehow had a higher number in my head.

I was being generous by going with the 7 tonne MTOW variant of the AW139, versus the S-92's 12,568kg MTOW

ED E · 03-03-2019 3:54pm

RE The Mater

DCC Planning 3212/16
And
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00587643.pdf

Are an interesting read. DCC granted them perms to build a ground pad until they can build a new wing with the supports for a helipad included.

As above, pads > carparks.

Markcheese · 03-03-2019 5:50pm

So basically, the coast gaurd helicopter can't land on any hospital rooftop, so will always need some distance of ambulance ride...

Odyssey 2005 · 03-03-2019 7:34pm

They had a helipad on site in St. Luke's in Kilkenny. They got rid of it and put a tree in its place

Psychlops · 03-03-2019 11:47pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Does any existing hospital have a dedicated helipad that can accommodate the S92? This seems like the typical fake news negative PR that is so popular at the moment.

UH Galway has 2, Tralee, Letterkenny, Sligo, Castlebar, Limerick.

Psychlops · 03-03-2019 11:56pm

S92 can land at the following Hospitals:

Letterkenny, Altnagelvin (NI), Enniskillen (NI), Sligo, Castlebar, UH Galway ( 2 Pads , 1 in use but both used not that long ago at same time for IRCG & EAS ), Limerick, Tralee, Tallaght Hospital, Newry Hospital & Craigavon (NI).

Other than that there are Surveyed Landing Sites approved for Day & Night, & other than that its landing at Scene & they train exactly for that especially confined areas.

ED E · 04-03-2019 2:07am

Psychlops wrote: »

S92 can land at the following Hospitals:

Letterkenny, Altnagelvin (NI), Enniskillen (NI), Sligo, Castlebar, UH Galway ( 2 Pads , 1 in use but both used not that long ago at same time for IRCG & EAS ), Limerick, Tralee, Tallaght Hospital, Newry Hospital & Craigavon (NI).

Other than that there are Surveyed Landing Sites approved for Day & Night, & other than that its landing at Scene & they train exactly for that especially confined areas.

They've 4000+ PDLZs apparently so there's usually something close at scene but if you need an ambo both ends it slows the process.

ectoraige · 04-03-2019 10:11am

Psychlops wrote: »

S92 can land at the following Hospitals:

Letterkenny, Altnagelvin (NI), Enniskillen (NI), Sligo, Castlebar, UH Galway ( 2 Pads , 1 in use but both used not that long ago at same time for IRCG & EAS ), Limerick, Tralee, Tallaght Hospital, Newry Hospital & Craigavon (NI).

Other than that there are Surveyed Landing Sites approved for Day & Night, & other than that its landing at Scene & they train exactly for that especially confined areas.

I'm open to correction, but ICG haven't been able to land at Sligo for some time now, I believe some fencing beside the landing area that rendered it unsuitable for the S92s. They land at their base in Strandhill and a NAS ambulance has to meet them there.

Stovepipe · 05-03-2019 1:56pm

Back in Alouette days, the entire country was surveyed for helicopter landing sites so that the Air Corps, as the then agency for SAR, could land on decent pads instead of GAA pitches or car parks and in a great rush of enthusiasm, lots of pads were built. A lot of agencies were involved; Army, Air Corps, Naval service, RNLI, Gardai, Fire brigade, and myriad Govt departments. Just think of the interdepartmental fighting that generated, despite being a genuinely worthy initiative................................Unfortunately, a lot of the pads were badly built, badly maintained and quite a lot were poorly located, being variously surrounded by trees, wires, fences, buildings, sloped too much, perpetually wet, too soft, too close to major and minor power lines and so on. Another factor is the growth of telecoms masts; they are absolutely everywhere and in some cases, the agency responsible didnt think about the users of nearby helipads and inform them so that more than one heli pilot has had a good fright from encountering an unknown mast. Also, pads built and sized for the Alouette III were not suitable for anything bigger, such as the S-61, Wessex, Puma, S-92 and others. As for rooftop heli pads, a big helicopter will shake that pad and building so there is a reason why a lot of rooftop pads are limited to smaller helicopters.

Psychlops · 06-03-2019 12:54am

The Helipad at Waterford Hospital was built for the Alouette, the Air Corps have posted pictures of the EAS AW139 on that pad at Waterford & it just about fits!

S92 has to land at the Rugby Pitch beside the Hospital.

As Stovepipe said that's what happened, same for the majority of Irish Lighthouses, all built with the Alouette in mind & nothing bigger.

Back in the 80's & onwards in Galway they had the one pad only & it was Alouette sized & unlit, AFAIK I remember Ambulances with flashing lights on & Ambulance headlights shinging on the pad at night whenever a Dauphin was coming in from the Islands or from a vessel off the West Coast.

eusap · 06-03-2019 10:01am

I wonder how many children are taken by the coast guard each year to a hospital?

Tallaght Hospital have a Helipad on the ground but even there they drive the last 200ft by ambulance

jasper100 · 06-03-2019 11:41am

eusap wrote: »

I wonder how many children are taken by the coast guard each year to a hospital?

If a child falls off a cliff or is in a car crash I presume they will be brought to the nearest hospital for emergencies, and not directly to the childrens hospital.

Most transfers by helicopter of children would presumably be by appointment from another hospital and not be particularly urgent, so to answer your question, I would think it would be very unusual to have the S92 deliver a critically ill patient to the childrens hospital, where travelling the last bit road would have saved their life.

ED E · 08-03-2019 1:53pm

AC 274 operating as 112 landed at The Mater car park turned pad earlier today.

ectoraige · 08-03-2019 2:35pm

jasper100 wrote:

If a child falls off a cliff or is in a car crash I presume they will be brought to the nearest hospital for emergencies, and not directly to the childrens hospital.

Actually, that's not really best international practice. In serious trauma cases, you really should be bypassing the nearest hospital and bringing the casualty to a specialist trauma facility instead.

Unless ED doctors and surgeons have an opportunity to carry out particular procedures on a regular basis, they lose competence to the point that they are no longer able to provide the best care. In order to make sure they have the appropriate volume of cases you have to centralise them into top-level hospitals. This does mean that some patients have to travel further, but if they can survive until hospital, they have a far better chance of leaving it alive.

In practical terms, Ireland should only really have at most three top-level trauma hospitals to which the most serious cases are brought directly to. Paedriatics is even more specialised, and lower volume, so it actually does make sense to just bring them direct to the children's hospital.

This really is the direction Ireland has to go to, with level one facilities in say Dublin, Cork, and Galway, and Emergency Departments throughout the rest of the country reduced to treating non-life-threatening injuries, and a better air ambulance service and ground ambulance network to reduce response times.

Politically though, it's hard to cut local health services because people expect their local hospital to be able to do everything, no matter how realistic it is.

RadioRetro · 08-03-2019 4:14pm

ED E wrote: »

AC 274 operating as 112 landed at The Mater car park turned pad earlier today.

That was a test recovery and all seems to have gone well.

Psychlops · 10-03-2019 12:03am

jasper100 wrote: »

If a child falls off a cliff or is in a car crash I presume they will be brought to the nearest hospital for emergencies, and not directly to the childrens hospital.

Most transfers by helicopter of children would presumably be by appointment from another hospital and not be particularly urgent, so to answer your question, I would think it would be very unusual to have the S92 deliver a critically ill patient to the childrens hospital, where travelling the last bit road would have saved their life.

The closest hospital is not always the best.

ted1 · 10-03-2019 10:06am

elperello wrote: »

The fact remains that if the children's hospital had been built on a less restricted site it could have been designed to be accessible to all helicopters.

But less accessible to the consultants who work the national hospital at James’s

Peregrine · 10-03-2019 8:55pm

ED E wrote: »

RE The Mater

DCC Planning 3212/16
And
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00587643.pdf

Are an interesting read. DCC granted them perms to build a ground pad until they can build a new wing with the supports for a helipad included.

As above, pads > carparks.

It was used today.

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53728817_2726148327412773_8675484576690208768_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=9d98bf591caf914b52cc582903a5cc79&oe=5CDE51F2

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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2726149537412652&id=148942718466693

ED E · 11-03-2019 12:24am

And 2 days ago....

Irish Coast Guard Helicopters not licensed to land on helipads ?

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