World League thread

awec · 01-03-2019 11:43AM

Former Former wrote: »

IIRC they beat most of the Five Nations teams in the years leading up to their inclusion. I don't think Georgia have ever beaten a tier 1 team, despite the fact that they would always be playing against second/third string teams. I don't think they're comparable tbh.

As for ditching the 6N; I would have absolutely no interest in a European rugby championship and I'd class myself as a rugby obsessive bordering on weird. If I wouldn't watch it, do you think the wider public would? And if no one watches it, where does the money come from?

And if there's no money coming in to the national team, what happens to Irish rugby?

Agree, no interest in a european championship.

One of the good things about the six nations is the lack of dirt tracker games. That's a big part of what makes it such a good competition. No interest in seeing Ireland send the B team to Georgia, Romania etc every year.

I would be more open to a European club league, something closer to Super Rugby. I think that's more likely to be successful, but it will also never happen.

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 11:48AM

Former Former wrote: »

IIRC they beat most of the Five Nations teams in the years leading up to their inclusion. I don't think Georgia have ever beaten a tier 1 team, despite the fact that they would always be playing against second/third string teams. I don't think they're comparable tbh.

They beat us and then Scotland once. They did not beat most of the 5 Nations teams.

They also beat France but at the time France were playing in the FIRA Trophy. It wasn’t a full French team, they actually sent their army side for some of the games. The team they beat would be comparable to Georgia playing the Irish Clubs team.

Italy were included because England were playing around with TV rights. It was political.

AbusesToilets · 01-03-2019 11:49AM

Rather than this crazy World League idea, I'd rather see a European tournament, offset from the WC, where the 6Ns and the Rugby Europe countries play mini tournament. It gives more games against the developing sides, allows them to be better assessed against the 6Ns teams and still allows for something like the Lions, as the 6Ns teams could use it as an opportunity for player development.

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 11:50AM

awec wrote: »

Agree, no interest in a european championship.

One of the good things about the six nations is the lack of dirt tracker games. That's a big part of what makes it such a good competition. No interest in seeing Ireland send the B team to Georgia, Romania etc every year.

I would be more open to a European club league, something closer to Super Rugby. I think that's more likely to be successful, but it will also never happen.

Ireland wouldn’t be playing Georgia or Romania every year.

You just move the 6 Nations to become the top division of the Rugby Europe Championship and have a single playoff every year between the winner of the 2nd division and the loser of the top division.

awec · 01-03-2019 11:51AM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Rather than this crazy World League idea, I'd rather see a European tournament, offset from the WC, where the 6Ns and the Rugby Europe countries play mini tournament. It gives more games against the developing sides, allows them to be better assessed against the 6Ns teams and still allows for something like the Lions, as the 6Ns teams could use it as an opportunity for player development.

There is no time to fit that into the calendar.

The only test windows are Feb/March, June and November.

Feb/March is 6N so you can rule that out.

The NH teams need the SH teams to visit in November cause they bring in so much money. So you can rule out November.

And in order for the SH teams to visit in November, the NH teams need to go south in June and return the favour. So you can rule that out too.

AbusesToilets · 01-03-2019 11:52AM

Rather than this crazy World League idea, I'd rather see a European tournament, offset from the WC, where the 6Ns and the Rugby Europe countries play mini tournament. It gives more games against the developing sides, allows them to be better assessed against the 6Ns teams and still allows for something like the Lions, as the 6Ns teams could use it as an opportunity for player development

awec · 01-03-2019 11:52AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ireland wouldn’t be playing Georgia or Romania every year.

You just move the 6 Nations to become the top division of the Rugby Europe Championship and have a single playoff every year between the winner of the 2nd division and the loser of the top division.

So basically a Six Nations where Italy beat Georgia each year in a playoff?

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 11:59AM

awec wrote: »

So basically a Six Nations where Italy beat Georgia each year in a playoff?

Or France. Or us. And they could be playing Romania. Ensure the revenue from that playoff is shared and you’ll find the gap starts to close.

This structure already exists for all rugby in Europe. Playoffs and all. It’s just the Six Nations aren’t in Europe supposedly.

thomond2006 · 01-03-2019 12:00PM

You can't do a relegation/promotion playoff every year. A Six Nations team with a nasty schedule on odd/even years would be caught out. It would have to be done every two years.

Former Former · 01-03-2019 12:01PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

You can't do a relegation/promotion playoff every year. A Six Nations team with a nasty schedule on odd/even years would be caught out. It would have to be done every two years.

You can't do it at all.

This is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:03PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

You can't do a relegation/promotion playoff every year. A Six Nations team with a nasty schedule on odd/even years would be caught out. It would have to be done every two years.

No you absolutely could do it every year. We accept the schedule to determine the winner anyway, it’s just part of the competition.

awec · 01-03-2019 12:04PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Or France. Or us. And they could be playing Romania. Ensure the revenue from that playoff is shared and you’ll find the gap starts to close.

This structure already exists for all rugby in Europe. Playoffs and all. It’s just the Six Nations aren’t in Europe supposedly.

Will you?

Italy have been in the Six Nations for 19 years and are still miles off the other 5 teams.

Not sure the throwing money will make teams better argument really stacks up.

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:04PM

Former Former wrote: »

You can't do it at all.

This is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

It’s not that they can’t. It’s that they won’t.

Former Former · 01-03-2019 12:09PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They beat us and then Scotland once. They did not beat most of the 5 Nations teams.

They also beat France but at the time France were playing in the FIRA Trophy. It wasn’t a full French team, they actually sent their army side for some of the games. The team they beat would be comparable to Georgia playing the Irish Clubs team.

Could the Irish Clubs field players of the calibre of Sadourny, Saint-Andre, Pelous, Tournaire?? Jaysus I must get out and watch some more AIL.

Even if France didn't really give a f**k and Ireland were rubbish and Scotland were rubbish, that was still three Five Nations teams beaten. Georgia have never beaten anyone of note, regardless of what XV they've faced or how disinterested the opposition.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Italy were included because England were playing around with TV rights. It was political.

Maybe, but if we've learned anything from the last 24 hours, it's that everything is political.

Former Former · 01-03-2019 12:10PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It’s not that they can’t. It’s that they won’t.

I'll rephrase.

You can't do it without bankrupting the existing Six Nations unions.

This is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

lawred2 · 01-03-2019 12:10PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It’s not that they can’t. It’s that they won’t.

that's the same thing really

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:12PM

Former Former wrote: »

I'll rephrase.

You can't do it without bankrupting the existing Six Nations unions.

This is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

Well that’s just nonsense.

Bankrupting them!

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:16PM

awec wrote: »

Will you?

Italy have been in the Six Nations for 19 years and are still miles off the other 5 teams.

Not sure the throwing money will make teams better argument really stacks up.

The Six Nations has never had shared revenue. So not a valid example.

However I never said throwing money at them would make them better. That’s a straw man.

However regularly playing a tier one team in a game that truly matters which is profitable for them would improve them. And it’d improve the quality of Rugby Europe as a product if there is more to play for every year.

Italy haven’t really improved because they were never given the platform. A lot of that is their own fault, their leadership was a disaster and they were plagued by infighting. But being guaranteed a place in lucrative competitions regardless of performance levels of their teams almost certainly contributed to that.

MJohnston · 01-03-2019 12:17PM

I'm curious - to those who are dismissing the idea of a relegation system in the Six Nations, what is your solution to this World League idea being a walled garden?

Do you prefer it be kept to the initial 12?

Former Former · 01-03-2019 12:22PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well that’s just nonsense.

Bankrupting them!

Wales and Scotland are always on a knife-edge. IRFU is better off but still utterly dependent on the TV income from the Six Nations.

Bringing in the spectre of relegation slashes the value of TV rights. That slashes the main income stream of the unions. Maybe RFU and FFR will be OK, the smaller unions would really, really struggle. It wouldn't take much to tip them over the edge.

But hey, so long as Georgia get a shot at conceding 80-90 points per match.

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:33PM

Former Former wrote: »

Wales and Scotland are always on a knife-edge. IRFU is better off but still utterly dependent on the TV income from the Six Nations.

Bringing in the spectre of relegation slashes the value of TV rights. That slashes the main income stream of the unions. Maybe RFU and FFR will be OK, the smaller unions would really, really struggle. It wouldn't take much to tip them over the edge.

But hey, so long as Georgia get a shot at conceding 80-90 points per match.

You’ve literally no idea the effect it would have on TV revenues. A VC firm like CVC could easily come in and take on the risk of a large relegation and look at the potential growth in revenue from expanding the market of rugby across Europe as an attractive opportunity. CVC are already knocking on their door.

But yeah. On the one hand, Georgia are going to lose every game by 80-90 points. On the other hand, they’re going to be good enough to beat one of the teams in a relegation playoff! As long as it suits!

You’re taking in certainties but they’re based on nothing here.

awec · 01-03-2019 12:39PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You’ve literally no idea the effect it would have on TV revenues. A VC firm like CVC could easily come in and take on the risk of a large relegation and look at the potential growth in revenue from expanding the market of rugby across Europe as an attractive opportunity. CVC are already knocking on their door.

But yeah. On the one hand, Georgia are going to lose every game by 80-90 points. On the other hand, they’re going to be good enough to beat one of the teams in a relegation playoff! As long as it suits!

You’re taking in certainties but they’re based on nothing here.

This is total pie in the sky, wishful thinking stuff.

CVC knocked on the door of the six nations. How much potential revenue growth do you see from the likes of Georgia, Romania, Spain etc?

01-03-2019 12:41PM

Could turn the 6n into a format similar to the u20s world cup.

2 groups of 4:
6 teams from current 6n
2 top teams from Rugby Europe Championship (Georgia + Russia)

Group A:
Ireland
Scotland
England
Russia

Group B:
Wales
France
Italy
Georgia

Play each team in your group once (3 games).
Winner from group A plays runner up from group B in semi finals
Winner from Group B plays runner up from group A in semi finals
Winners play in final. Losers play in 3rd place play off. 5 matches for all teams involved.

3rd place group A plays 4th group B.
3rd place group B plays 4th group A.
Winners play 5th place play off. Losers play in relegation play off. 5 matches for all teams. Team who comes in 8th place gets relegated and replaced by top team from Rugby Europe Championship of that year.

Of course you lose some of the history of the event but there aren't many crap matches added and you get 2 more teams playing T1 rugby.

01-03-2019 12:45PM

AdamD wrote: »

Could turn the 6n into a format similar to the u20s world cup.

2 groups of 4:
6 teams from current 6n
2 top teams from Rugby Europe Championship (Georgia + Russia)

Group A:
Ireland
Scotland
England
Russia

Group B:
Wales
France
Italy
Georgia

Play each team in your group once (3 games).
Winner from group A plays runner up from group B in semi finals
Winner from Group B plays runner up from group A in semi finals
Winners play in final. Losers play in 3rd place play off. 5 matches for all teams involved.

3rd place group A plays 4th group B.
3rd place group B plays 4th group A.
Winners play 5th place play off. Losers play in relegation play off. 5 matches for all teams. Team who comes in 8th place gets relegated and replaced by top team from Rugby Europe Championship of that year.

Of course you lose some of the history of the event but there aren't many crap matches added and you get 2 more teams playing T1 rugby.

Increase it to 10 teams add Spain and Russia
No semifinals final positions sorted by a 1st Vs 1st 2nd Vs 2nd etc...

Bottom 2 teams go into a relegation match every November or summer...

Former Former · 01-03-2019 12:46PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm curious - to those who are dismissing the idea of a relegation system in the Six Nations, what is your solution to this World League idea being a walled garden?

Do you prefer it be kept to the initial 12?

I think this whole discussion is about the difference between what people would like and what can feasibly happen.

The Six Nations is not an option for the likes of Georgia. It's just not and no amount of wishing will make it so. It's like saying we should all give up meat and air travel to save the environment; great in theory, absolutely never going to happen in reality.

On the other hand, starting a brand-new global tournament does provide the opportunity for teams like Fiji, Georgia, Samoa, Canada to have meaningful games and something concrete to aim for. It's a question of how best to do that.

Unfortunately, putting in place a system that could conceivably allow Italy, USA and Japan to be replaced by Georgia, Fiji and Samoa within three years wipes a huge amount off the potential market value of such a tournament, and this is why we saw the proposals that came out yesterday.

I hope that some system can be figured out, but it will require the established unions to say, OK, we are going to take a hit to help out the little guys, and they do not have a good track record on that.

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:47PM

awec wrote: »

This is total pie in the sky, wishful thinking stuff.

CVC knocked on the door of the six nations. How much potential revenue growth do you see from the likes of Georgia, Romania, Spain etc?

Yes. It is pie in the sky wishful thinking stuff. That’s entirely the point. The entire thread is here as a result of pie in the sky wishful thinking from Pichot.

Revenue growth from Georgia or Romania would be very limited individually. Just as it has been in Italy. You’re looking from growth across the board by increasing the quality of the competition in general, and places like Germany/Spain would be the big markets you’d hope for growth from, hopefully without putting them on a pedestal.

troyzer · 01-03-2019 12:49PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’ve yet to hear a single coherent reason that Italy should be allowed to lose every game every year with no relegation play off. Or a single rugby reason why Georgia losing every game wouldn’t be significantly worse for the competition than Italy losing every game.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes. It is pie in the sky wishful thinking stuff. That’s entirely the point. The entire thread is here as a result of pie in the sky wishful thinking from Pichot.

Revenue growth from Georgia or Romania would be very limited individually. Just as it has been in Italy. You’re looking from growth across the board by increasing the quality of the competition in general, and places like Germany/Spain would be the big markets you’d hope for growth from, hopefully without putting them on a pedestal.

Italy is the 8th largest economy in the world.

That's the difference. A small amount of highly concentrated interest is enough.

lawred2 · 01-03-2019 12:50PM

AdamD wrote: »

Could turn the 6n into a format similar to the u20s world cup.

2 groups of 4:
6 teams from current 6n
2 top teams from Rugby Europe Championship (Georgia + Russia)

Group A:
Ireland
Scotland
England
Russia

Group B:
Wales
France
Italy
Georgia

Play each team in your group once (3 games).
Winner from group A plays runner up from group B in semi finals
Winner from Group B plays runner up from group A in semi finals
Winners play in final. Losers play in 3rd place play off. 5 matches for all teams involved.

3rd place group A plays 4th group B.
3rd place group B plays 4th group A.
Winners play 5th place play off. Losers play in relegation play off. 5 matches for all teams. Team who comes in 8th place gets relegated and replaced by top team from Rugby Europe Championship of that year.

Of course you lose some of the history of the event but there aren't many crap matches added and you get 2 more teams playing T1 rugby.

I would hate that if it meant there was a chance of not playing any of France, England, Wales, Scotland in any given year

irishbucsfan · 01-03-2019 12:53PM

troyzer wrote: »

Italy is the 8th largest economy in the world.

That's the difference. A small amount of highly concentrated interest is enough.

So by that logic we should kick them out and put Germany into the competition in their place?

That’s it a rugby reason. Which is what I asked for.

AbusesToilets · 01-03-2019 01:03PM

Spain and Germany are the countries we should be looking to bring along. They have larger potential for growth, have shown increased enthusiasm for the sport recently and are much friendlier travel destinations.

Getting a team from each into the Pro14 would be a good stepping stone to including them in an expanded 6Ns set up. With a structured development plan, it could allow for the market to grow in those countries to the point where they wouldn't be a drain on the fashion Georgia would be.

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