World League thread

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 07:02PM

The idea of promotion/relegation in the 6N is completely unworkable. Wait til Ireland get relegated and you are playing Romania, Spain and Germany. No tv broadcaster would touch it.
Imagine Sky paying millions and then England getting relegated.

The South Sea teams have been going nowhere for years. They don't have the population base to make progress.

I presume this will also have an impact on the voting numbers countries get at world rugby board level.

Neil3030 · 28-02-2019 08:00PM

Absolutely needs to be relegation/promotion between this super league and a league comprised of the Tier 2 nations, or else this thing is utter protectionist BS.

lawred2 · 28-02-2019 08:04PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Absolutely needs to be relegation/promotion between this super league and a league comprised of the Tier 2 nations, or else this thing is utter protectionist BS.

Can't happen. Not when the six nations forms a consituent part of the competition.

recyclebin · 28-02-2019 08:44PM

This World League is totally unnecessary.

Could they not expand the Rugby Championship to 6 teams (2 from USA, Japan, Fiji and Tonga)

Then the top two from the 6 Nations and the top 2 from Rugby Championship go straight through to semi finals and final in November.

Also have relegation/promotion playoffs for both the six nations and the rugby championship.

This would mean three extra big games and give the smaller teams something to fight for.

Neil3030 · 28-02-2019 08:46PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Can't happen. Not when the six nations forms a consituent part of the competition.

Absolutely can happen. But absolutely won't.

I'd actually really like the idea if it had such a mechanism.

Blut2 · 28-02-2019 08:48PM

Good BBC article on this here:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/47408903

The cliffnotes is the author believes the idea is dead in the water because it wouldn't add enough financial incentives for the 6Nations teams for them to risk the additional games, the added catastrophic risk of relegation, and the destruction of the Lions. Which seems reasonable.

The Southern Hemisphere teams are the ones in serious financial problems who'd benefit most from the idea. Adding Japan & the US to an expanded Rugby Championship won't help with the quality of rugby, but might help with the finances a bit at least. I can see that happening in lieu of the grander World League scheme.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 09:04PM

Interesting quote from that bbc article

'World Rugby know that the Six Nations are exploring an idea that would see them pool their own TV revenues for the first time for their championship and autumn internationals. They've even got a name for the concept - Project Light. They're on the lookout for 'partners'. If that deal comes to pass then a World League is dead in the water and the financial problems of Australia and Argentina, in particular, carry on.'

So are the 6N teams looking to pay tv for all 6N/Autumn games to be sold as a whole.
In fairness the autumn internationals were a disaster this year for tv as games regularly overlapped.

You could certainly see Sky being interested in the UK/Ire rights.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 09:13PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Interesting quote from that bbc article

'World Rugby know that the Six Nations are exploring an idea that would see them pool their own TV revenues for the first time for their championship and autumn internationals. They've even got a name for the concept - Project Light. They're on the lookout for 'partners'. If that deal comes to pass then a World League is dead in the water and the financial problems of Australia and Argentina, in particular, carry on.'

So are the 6N teams looking to pay tv for all 6N/Autumn games to be sold as a whole.
In fairness the autumn internationals were a disaster this year for tv as games regularly overlapped.

You could certainly see Sky being interested in the UK/Ire rights.

It makes absolutely no sense that all test matches hosted in Europe aren't organised under the Six Nations commercial umbrella. This is a no-brainer.

thebaz · 28-02-2019 09:23PM

lawred2 wrote: »

I don't think the 5/6 nations has ever been boring because of the absence of relegation..

Watching Italy lose every game becomes boring , I actually think it would help them if they played a competive playoff with Georgia , they would probably win , but at least they would win a competive game - continusually losing games with no consequences is not competive, and will eveventually become a turnoff for everyone

troyzer · 28-02-2019 09:28PM

thebaz wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

I don't think the 5/6 nations has ever been boring because of the absence of relegation..

Watching Italy lose every game becomes boring , I actually think it would help them if they played a competive playoff with Georgia , they would probably win , but at least they would win a competive game - continusually losing games with no consequences is not competive, and will eveventually become a turnoff for everyone

You're still missing the point. France for example are paying a fortune to play in the Stade de Fraince and I think it's widely accepted they should get their own stadium.

What happens if they build their stadium, have a bad year, get relegated and their income collapses? Then they can't pay for the stadium and suddenly are in a financial crisis.

Equally, what if Ireland have a bad year and suddenly there's no cash to honour central contracts which are then voided and our stars **** off to France?

There is a reason why relegation can't be allowed, it's utterly toxic and it has an awful effect on the premiership where players are flogged and tactical creativity is shunned in favour of a desperate win now mentality.

And let's say Georgia with it's small, poor population replaces France. The total income of the entire tournament would then drop considerably after losing one of its most lucrative members.

I want Georgia to play more tier 1 opponents and play their way into the Six Nations. But relegation is madness.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 09:32PM

Relegation is an obvious answer and “what if it inconveniences a country who has overwhelmingly benefitted for decades from the fact that rugby is a colonial closed shop” will never be even remotely close to being an adequate argument against it. The stuff about it being the reason players are flogged is utter bollocks.

Neil3030 · 28-02-2019 09:50PM

If Ireland ever come bottom of the 6N and then lose to Georgia or Romania in a playoff, paying for central contracts will not be within an ass's roar of our biggest problem.

28-02-2019 09:52PM

Parachute payments?

thebaz · 28-02-2019 09:56PM

troyzer wrote: »

You're still missing the point. France for example are paying a fortune to play in the Stade de Fraince and I think it's widely accepted they should get their own stadium.

What happens if they build their stadium, have a bad year, get relegated and their income collapses? Then they can't pay for the stadium and suddenly are in a financial crisis.

Equally, what if Ireland have a bad year and suddenly there's no cash to honour central contracts which are then voided and our stars **** off to France?

There is a reason why relegation can't be allowed, it's utterly toxic and it has an awful effect on the premiership where players are flogged and tactical creativity is shunned in favour of a desperate win now mentality.

I'm missing no point , I could say you are missing the point of competive professional sport , its not kindegarten sports day , where everone is a winner - the whole idea of adult sport is that it is competive , where winning is rewarded , but eually mediocrity or failure has consequences , if Italy or Ireland or Scotland cant beat Georgia , be it in a 2 tier game , then tough, they dont deserve to be ther, however rich they are or not

troyzer · 28-02-2019 09:58PM

thebaz wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

You're still missing the point. France for example are paying a fortune to play in the Stade de Fraince and I think it's widely accepted they should get their own stadium.

What happens if they build their stadium, have a bad year, get relegated and their income collapses? Then they can't pay for the stadium and suddenly are in a financial crisis.

Equally, what if Ireland have a bad year and suddenly there's no cash to honour central contracts which are then voided and our stars **** off to France?

There is a reason why relegation can't be allowed, it's utterly toxic and it has an awful effect on the premiership where players are flogged and tactical creativity is shunned in favour of a desperate win now mentality.

I'm missing no point , I could say you are missing the point of competive professional sport , its not kindegarten sports day , where everone is a winner - the whole idea of adult sport is that it is competive , where winning is rewarded , but eually mediocrity or failure has consequences , if Italy or Ireland or Scotland cant beat Georgia , be it in a 2 tier game , then tough, they dont deserve to be ther, however rich they are or not

That's all well and good in a perfect world but it would lead to the collapse of several member unions.

Every Six Nations team has a bad year and Georgia can catch a top team on their day. Ireland having a bad year could lead to a lost decade.

Georgia has no professional team and wouldn't lose out too much by subsequently getting relegated. It wouldn't destroy them like it would Ireland.

thebaz · 28-02-2019 10:01PM

troyzer wrote: »

Every Six Nations team has a bad year and Georgia can catch a top team on their day. Ireland having a bad year could lead to a lost decade.

Georgia has no professional team and wouldn't lose out too much by subsequently getting relegated. It wouldn't destroy them like it would Ireland.

well tough, somehow rugby in Ireland would survive, maybe it would come back stronger, if it had reached such lows.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:06PM

thebaz wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Every Six Nations team has a bad year and Georgia can catch a top team on their day. Ireland having a bad year could lead to a lost decade.

Georgia has no professional team and wouldn't lose out too much by subsequently getting relegated. It wouldn't destroy them like it would Ireland.

well tough, somehow rugby in Ireland would survive, maybe it would come back stronger, if it had reached such lows.

That's a valid point and I wish we did live in a world where merit was the be all and end all.

Personally I think the pathway for Georgia is to be made a permanent member in a 7 Nations without relegation.

MJohnston · 28-02-2019 10:13PM

troyzer wrote: »

That's all well and good in a perfect world but it would lead to the collapse of several member unions.

Every Six Nations team has a bad year and Georgia can catch a top team on their day. Ireland having a bad year could lead to a lost decade.

Georgia has no professional team and wouldn't lose out too much by subsequently getting relegated. It wouldn't destroy them like it would Ireland.

They've never beaten a single top-tier team.

Ironically, they have beaten Japan before, and share a 50/50 win/loss record against the US.

awec · 28-02-2019 10:14PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Relegation is an obvious answer and “what if it inconveniences a country who has overwhelmingly benefitted for decades from the fact that rugby is a colonial closed shop” will never be even remotely close to being an adequate argument against it. The stuff about it being the reason players are flogged is utter bollocks.

Relegation will never, ever happen, so we can forget about it.

The Unions do not want it, the broadcasters definitely do not want it.

The Lost Sheep · 28-02-2019 10:14PM

thebaz wrote: »

I'm missing no point, I could say you are missing the point of competive professional sport, its not kindegarten sports day, where everone is a winner - the whole idea of adult sport is that it is competive, where winning is rewarded, but eually mediocrity or failure has consequences, if Italy or Ireland or Scotland cant beat Georgia, be it in a 2 tier game, then tough, they dont deserve to be ther, however rich they are or not

But the problem is the 6nations and international game as it stands is vital for the financing/running of all domestic rugby etc in the country so losing out on year of it would be huge....

thebaz wrote: »

well tough, somehow rugby in Ireland would survive, maybe it would come back stronger, if it had reached such lows.

It would but can we run risk financially of losing out even for one year?

troyzer wrote: »

That's a valid point and I wish we did live in a world where merit was the be all and end all.

Personally I think the pathway for Georgia is to be made a permanent member in a 7 Nations without relegation.

But what then if Russia/Romania/Germany then get very strong? What do we do then?

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:23PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

thebaz wrote: »

I'm missing no point, I could say you are missing the point of competive professional sport, its not kindegarten sports day, where everone is a winner - the whole idea of adult sport is that it is competive, where winning is rewarded, but eually mediocrity or failure has consequences, if Italy or Ireland or Scotland cant beat Georgia, be it in a 2 tier game, then tough, they dont deserve to be ther, however rich they are or not

But the problem is the 6nations and international game as it stands is vital for the financing/running of all domestic rugby etc in the country so losing out on year of it would be huge....

thebaz wrote: »

well tough, somehow rugby in Ireland would survive, maybe it would come back stronger, if it had reached such lows.

It would but can we run risk financially of losing out even for one year?

troyzer wrote: »

That's a valid point and I wish we did live in a world where merit was the be all and end all.

Personally I think the pathway for Georgia is to be made a permanent member in a 7 Nations without relegation.

But what then if Russia/Romania/Germany then get very strong? What do we do then?

If we get to a point where we have 10 competitive and financially strong European teams then we can start looking to rewrite the whole thing. It'll be feasible at that stage.

Are there any rugby fans here who genuinely would want to keep the Six Nations if a soccer style, competitive European championship every few years was a viable alternative?

Former Former · 28-02-2019 10:25PM

awec wrote: »

Relegation will never, ever happen, so we can forget about it.

The Unions do not want it, the broadcasters definitely do not want it.

This is it.

No TV company is going to put up cash if there is a risk of having no audience a year later.

End of debate.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:33PM

Just to make us all depressed, Bryce Harper has signed a 13 year/$330m contract with the Phillies. And he didn't even have a good season last year.

How long could you run the entirety of southern hemisphere rugby with $330m?

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 10:34PM

That's why it won't happen. It's not why it shouldn't happen. Don't confuse the two things.

The unions are supposed to be the altruistic guardians of the game who take interest in developing the sport. They took great care to tell us that repeatedly back in 2013. Clubs can't be trusted to do it of course, only the Unions care. Except as we can clearly see now, the interest of the unions extends solely to their own back yard, and so the entire global game is only concerned with cultivating the game in countries where a) it is already healthy or b) its development could benefit the bottom line of places where it is. They're just "non-profit" clubs with NGB labels slapped on them.

As long as that's the case (which is forever barring a cataclysmic shift in power), WR will remain a closed shop. And it'll only close further.

The fact that's inevitable going to remain true doesn't mean I have to pretend to agree with it.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:39PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's why it won't happen. It's not why it shouldn't happen. Don't confuse the two things.

The unions are supposed to be the altruistic guardians of the game who take interest in developing the sport. They took great care to tell us that repeatedly back in 2013. Clubs can't be trusted to do it of course, only the Unions care. Except as we can clearly see now, the interest of the unions extends solely to their own back yard, and so the entire global game is only concerned with cultivating the game in countries where a) it is already healthy or b) its development could benefit the bottom line of places where it is. They're just "non-profit" clubs with NGB labels slapped on them.

As long as that's the case (which is forever barring a cataclysmic shift in power), WR will remain a closed shop. And it'll only close further.

The fact that's inevitable going to remain true doesn't mean I have to pretend to agree with it.

There's a difference between committing to the development of other nations and staking your entire financial future on it.

Exclamation Marc · 28-02-2019 10:55PM

If anyone thinks a relegation league is a good idea, they're deluded.

The money loss for the bigger countries would be astronomical and the resulting year of Ireland, England or France for example only playing the likes of Spain, Romania, Georgia and Fiji etc would be a complete farce and a waste of everyone's time.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 11:02PM

troyzer wrote: »

There's a difference between committing to the development of other nations and staking your entire financial future on it.

Right, yeah. Except no one is talking about staking anyone's entire financial future on it.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 11:08PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

There's a difference between committing to the development of other nations and staking your entire financial future on it.

Right, yeah. Except no one is talking about staking anyone's entire financial future on it.

Well, they are. You're staking your entire financial future if it means you could get relegated and lose all of that income.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 11:10PM

troyzer wrote: »

Well, they are. You're staking your entire financial future if it means you could get relegated and lose all of that income.

Being relegated would not mean losing all of that income

troyzer · 28-02-2019 11:12PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Well, they are. You're staking your entire financial future if it means you could get relegated and lose all of that income.

Being relegated would not mean losing all of that income

It would mean losing a huge portion of it.

World League thread

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