World League thread

troyzer · 28-02-2019 8:42am #1

Lads, this is getting advanced to the point now where I think it deserves its own thread. The details of a new 12 year deal have been revelead.

Per the NZ Herald article today:

Essentially the new format will require all 12 nations to play each other once in the calendar year, with a semi-final and final to be played in late November, possibly early December.

The 12 nations will be the current Six Nations – England, France, Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales – the current Rugby Championship sides of New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Argentina plus Japan and USA who are going to be invited to join the Rugby Championship.

There will be no promotion or relegation from either the Six Nations or Rugby Championship which means the likes of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have been left out in the cold for at least 10 years.

The only real difference between this and the details leaked at the LA meeting is that relegation now seems to be off the table which was clearly done to get the Six Nations teams on board. They want to have it ready to go by 2020 which means we might well have had our last ever June and Autumn internationals as they currently exist.

Locking out the tier 2s like the islands and Georgia is fairly reprehensible but understandable from a commercial perspective.

The players are not happy and feel like they haven't been consulted and that this will have a negative effect on player welfare and the club game:

International Rugby Players President Jonathan Sexton said: “While players gave this idea a cautious welcome when we met at the end of last year, it now seems like a commercial deal on the future of the game is being negotiated at a rapid pace with little consideration given to the important points we raised with World Rugby in November.

“The issue of player load has never been so topical, however needs to be properly understood. To suggest that players can play five incredibly high-level test matches in consecutive weeks in November, is out of touch and shows little understanding of the physical strain this brings”

There are quotes from other top test captains like Owen Farrell and Kieran Read in the article I linked.

It would make the Lions tours unworkable and also undermine the value of the world cup which would effectively only be notable for having tier 2 sides get battered on live TV. I'm really, really worried about this.

PMC83 · 28-02-2019 9:14am

Yep, really not sure I'm loving this idea at all. Also locking out the pacific island teams?? Come on lads

troyzer · 28-02-2019 9:15am

The tier 2 teams would never play top sides outside of a world cup, it's madness.

thomond2006 · 28-02-2019 9:20am

Growing the game eh?

troyzer · 28-02-2019 9:23am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Growing the game eh?

Nah, player welfare is the priority.

lawred2 · 28-02-2019 9:29am

There should have been at least one relegation place.. they are being given nothing to play for

However reading the logistics of it, does the six nations serve as five games played by the northern hemisphere sides?

If so, then it's hard to see how relegation could have been facilitated.

lawred2 · 28-02-2019 9:34am

Big money getting a seat at the table as well with Japan and the USA involved.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 9:34am

If the IRFU and in particular the NZRU have voted in favour of this they should be ashamed of themselves really.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 9:36am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If the IRFU and in particular the NZRU have voted in favour of this they should be ashamed of themselves really.

I don't see why the IRFU would, the NZRU definitely did though given their financial issues.

Clegg · 28-02-2019 9:46am

Read an interestin point about the Pacific Islands sides being left out.

We'll see more of their top players retiring from test rugby and signing for English and French sides for big money. There's little to no incentive or benefit for playing internationally when you can't play the best sides. Nadolo has already retired from test rugby to focus on Montpellier and will miss the World Cup. We'll be seeing more of this in the future.

Former Former · 28-02-2019 9:46am

The SANZAR unions have the most to gain here so you can be sure they were the driving force.

Agustin Pichot's crusade to protect the smaller nations lasted just long enough to ensure Argentina got their snouts in the trough.

This whole thing is a disgrace.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 9:47am

Former Former wrote: »

The SANZAR unions have the most to gain here so you can be sure they were the driving force.

Agustin Pichot's crusade to protect the smaller nations lasted just long enough to ensure Argentina got their snouts in the trough.

This whole thing is a disgrace.

It's almost FIFA-esque.

stephen_n · 28-02-2019 9:47am

How exactly does this fit with the idea of player welfare which was floated when it was first mentioned? Seems like a money grab for the bigger nations in world rugby and f the rest.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 9:49am

stephen_n wrote: »

How exactly does this fit with the idea of player welfare which was floated when it was first mentioned? Seems like a money grab for the bigger nations in world rugby and f the rest.

It's essentially a money grab by SANZAAR and the North are enabling them knowing that if they go into financial ruin, it'll hurt them too. SANZAAR do have real problems that need to be fixed but this solution throws the tier 2 teams, player welfare, the world cup and the magic of test rugby against teams only every few years firmly under the bus.

Clegg · 28-02-2019 9:50am

Japan and America are also joining the Rugby Championship. The US are fecking terrible. There's no reason for including the other than for money. Pointless fixture for the SANZAAR sides. Increases likelihood of injury with more games on the horizon.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 9:56am

Former Former wrote: »

The SANZAR unions have the most to gain here so you can be sure they were the driving force.

Agustin Pichot's crusade to protect the smaller nations lasted just long enough to ensure Argentina got their snouts in the trough.

This whole thing is a disgrace.

Pichot is on the board of USA Rugby now as well

thomond2006 · 28-02-2019 9:58am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pichot is on the board of USA Rugby now as well

Ugh this is L*wryesque.

Former Former · 28-02-2019 10:05am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pichot is on the board of USA Rugby now as well

Oh good. I was worried there might be a conflict of interest or something.

Exclamation Marc · 28-02-2019 10:06am

troyzer wrote: »

It's almost FIFA-esque.

It's actually the opposite.

Fifa are extending the world cup size to include as many teams as possible, making the qualification process almost redundant. Sure they have a larger market of teams but they're moving to include as many teams as possible.

This is going the other way in locking teams out.

AdamD · 28-02-2019 10:10am

Pichot has consistently come out with ****e ideas since he got the job.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 10:29am

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

It's actually the opposite.

Fifa are extending the world cup size to include as many teams as possible, making the qualification process almost redundant. Sure they have a larger market of teams but they're moving to include as many teams as possible.

This is going the other way in locking teams out.

Yeah. If it was FIFA-esque then we might actually have a European body that’s responsible for all of the sides in Europe rather than just a small cabal of six teams who are only interested in looking after themselves. Our sport is nowhere near that level of maturity.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 10:29am

In some ways it is good. There had been a need for the top NH sides to play the best in the SH more often.

For the 3 tests down under in June you could have a first game against Argentina (put out a 2nd string). Then S Africa and a final test against NZ.

Then in November you play Oz, Japan and USA. Hardly a tough run. If in the top rankings you then play 2 high end games, so max of 3 fixtures for the top players.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:32am

The lads will be clocking up serious air miles.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 10:41am

troyzer wrote: »

The lads will be clocking up serious air miles.

Not necessarily. You could have 2 groups of players.
First group (2nd string) flies to Argentina, main group flies to SA, then certain players join the 1st team in NZ for the last test.

It is pretty certain that the 1st xv won't play 3 international games in a row in June or November, unless they get to the latter stages in November.

The big impact is on the clubs. How will the Top14 and Premiership react. 5 week break in the leagues without top players and then losing them for the 6 Nations.

The South Sea players' value will increase as effectively they have no games to play.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:42am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Not necessarily. You could have 2 groups of players.
First group (2nd string) flies to Argentina, main group flies to SA, then certain players join the 1st team in NZ for the last test.

It is pretty certain that the 1st xv won't play 3 international games in a row in June or November, unless they get to the latter stages in November.

The big impact is on the clubs. How will the Top14 and Premiership react. 5 week break in the leagues without top players and then losing them for the 6 Nations.

The South Sea players' value will increase as effectively they have no games to play.

I don't know if you've noticed but Argentina have knocked us out of two world cups, you can't send a team there with ZERO of our top players.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 10:46am

troyzer wrote: »

I don't know if you've noticed but Argentina have knocked us out of two world cups, you can't send a team there with ZERO of our top players.

Wales went there this year with a 2nd string and beat them. They are not the same team they once were.

If Sky secure the tv rights it would give them a great spread of games from the 6N in February right through to November.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 10:53am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Wales went there this year with a 2nd string and beat them. They are not the same team they once were.

If Sky secure the tv rights it would give them a great spread of games from the 6N in February right through to November.

That 2nd string team in the first test shared 11 players from the 23 which just beat England including George North, Hadleigh Parkes, Gareth Davies and Rob Evans among others. It was a bit of an experimental side but it was absolutely stacked with top drawer players. Ireland couldn't afford to send nothing but our second stringers to Argentina. We didn't even do that to Italy in November.

sydthebeat · 28-02-2019 10:58am

can someone outline to me what problem they are trying to solve with this please?

troyzer · 28-02-2019 11:01am

sydthebeat wrote: »

can someone outline to me what problem they are trying to solve with this please?

All of the SANZAAR teams have huge financial difficulties for different reasons. They're trying to offset this by maximising TV revenue and a certain TV company (un-named but probably Sky) have offered a gigantic TV deal on the condition that they get the Six Nations, Rugby Championship and a new North/South annual tournament as part of the package.

Former Former · 28-02-2019 11:01am

sydthebeat wrote: »

can someone outline to me what problem they are trying to solve with this please?

The financial deficit faced by the Southern Hemisphere unions. That's it.

Fewer games? No.

More involvement for the Tier 2 nations? No.

Player welfare? No.

Former Former · 28-02-2019 11:03am

This is also very likely the death knell for international rugby on free-to-air TV.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 11:08am

It looks like each union would get around €8/9 million. The US could potentially do well from it. They could sell out games against Ire and NZ. A lot of club squad players in Ireland may look for a career there. Some of the South Sea players may also be tempted over there.

I presume Japan will also look to recruit the South Sea players and with their club league it may be an attractive option for players.

SA, NZ and Oz will have to bring big squads up north in November with potentially 5 fixtures in a row, with no handy games unless they play Italy.

Squidgy Black · 28-02-2019 11:08am

The only real solution here is to just move New Zealand, South Africa and Australia to the Northern Hemisphere.

Physically push the islands up, cut South Africa off from the end of their continent and float them up too.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 11:23am

The Rugby Championship will probably be the biggest loser. It looks like a round robin fixture list so the 6 SH teams play each other once. 5 games with possibly only 2 at home, 1 against either Japan, USA or Arg.

People down there won't be happy going from playing each other 2 or 3 times to just once a year.

awec · 28-02-2019 11:23am

So can we expect to see the good players playing for their clubs even less now?

troyzer · 28-02-2019 11:25am

awec wrote: »

So can we expect to see the good players playing for their clubs even less now?

Nobody has explained how this is going to work with the current club schedules.

awec · 28-02-2019 11:29am

troyzer wrote: »

Nobody has explained how this is going to work with the current club schedules.

If it means more pro14 games without international players then the IRFU can go and f**k themselves.

irishbucsfan · 28-02-2019 11:30am

awec wrote: »

So can we expect to see the good players playing for their clubs even less now?

If it went through I’d imagine you wouldn’t see any internationals playing pro 14 rugby until at least April each season, aside from the odd tune up game.

Won’t happen though in this form.

Utah_Saint · 28-02-2019 11:50am

Without reading every previous post on here is seems pretty obvious this is driven completely by SH interests. The desperately want in on the money generated by the 6N teams.

I am completely against it. It will destroy the club game and consign the tier 2 nations to amateur rugby for their entire existence. I really enjoy the internationals. the 6N is the highlight of the rugby year for me. This will dilute that just so SH blazers can make a few bob.

ionadnapokot · 28-02-2019 12:00pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Without reading every previous post on here is seems pretty obvious this is driven completely by SH interests. The desperately want in on the money generated by the 6N teams.

I am completely against it. It will destroy the club game and consign the tier 2 nations to amateur rugby for their entire existence. I really enjoy the internationals. the 6N is the highlight of the rugby year for me. This will dilute that just so SH blazers can make a few bob.

It smacks of Gus Pichot been a wiling pawn for SANZAR as thanks for letting Argentina play with you - SANZAAR.
It’s a deplorable concept.

Tigerandahalf · 28-02-2019 12:08pm

The 6N won't be diluted. It will be the exact same tournament.

Tier 2 nations have to be able to pay for themselves. That is why the USA and Japan are coming on board. The island teams were never going to have a future.

There is actually very little difference (for the NH sides) except the possibility of 2 extra November games. Most of the 6Ns teams won't play these extra games - so no real change. Presumably the 6Ns and RC winners will be guaranteed a semi. Winning the 6Ns may mean an extra home fixture with a guaranteed sell out.

What fans would turn down an annual fixture against the All Blacks, Oz and SA.

Talks that the final will be in a neutral venue but I would say that will be ditched in case of an empty stadium. It makes sense for the NH team to get the home venue but the money being split between the teams.

Utah_Saint · 28-02-2019 12:10pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

It smacks of Gus Pichot been a wiling pawn for SANZAR as thanks for letting Argentina play with you - SANZAAR.
It’s a deplorable concept.

https://twitter.com/JimKayes/status/1101004425064177664

posted up on the42.ie comments

DGRulz · 28-02-2019 12:15pm

Why does there need to be a World Rugby rep on a national board? Is this common place with all the unions?

troyzer · 28-02-2019 12:16pm

DGRulz wrote: »

Why does there need to be a World Rugby rep on a national board? Is this common place with all the unions?

The USA is a special case. It's in everyone's interest for the USA to start giving a **** about rugby and it makes sense to invest a lot of time in developing the sport there.

OldRio · 28-02-2019 12:19pm

I give you Sky Super Sunday Rugby Franchise fixtures for November 2020

The Irish Shamrocks v The English Bulldogs. The Welsh Dragons v New Zealand Kiwis.
Then we can all look forward to the following seasons draft where all the stars of the domestic leagues will be assigned to their new teams.

In this glorious wonderful Sky HD future, player welfare has been addressed (No domestic fixtures for the chosen few)
More money generated for the 'grass roots' (Kiss my Arse)
Of course Tier 2 concerns will be addressed, sometime, in the future, down the line.
It's a win win for everyone.

Money grab, nothing more, nothing less.

troyzer · 28-02-2019 12:25pm

OldRio wrote: »

I give you Sky Super Sunday Rugby Franchise fixtures for November 2020

The Irish Shamrocks v The English Bulldogs. The Welsh Dragons v New Zealand Kiwis.
Then we can all look forward to the following seasons draft where all the stars of the domestic leagues will be assigned to their new teams.

In this glorious wonderful Sky HD 4k future, player welfare has been addressed (No domestic fixtures for the chosen few)
More money generated for the 'grass roots' (Kiss my Arse)
Of course Tier 2 concerns will be addressed, sometime, in the future, down the line.
It's a win win for everyone.

Money grab, nothing more, nothing less.

fyp.

Former Former · 28-02-2019 12:33pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The 6N won't be diluted. It will be the exact same tournament.

Of course it will be diluted.

It will become a competition within a competition, like the Triple Crown or the GAA Provincial Championships.

Utah_Saint · 28-02-2019 12:53pm

once they destroy the provinces I'll go back to watching my local Kukri Ulster Rugby Championship Div 2 team...

crisco10 · 28-02-2019 1:08pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The 6N won't be diluted. It will be the exact same tournament.

I think it will definetely get diluted, just like someone else pointed out, similar to GAA where its all about the All Ireland series now and the provincial championships are an addendum.

Tier 2 nations have to be able to pay for themselves. That is why the USA and Japan are coming on board. The island teams were never going to have a future.

I don't know enough about the specific financial details, but I would have thought the islanders are pretty good when they come to town (i.e. they provided Ireland with a relatively full Aviva in the last few Novembers). And even if they are a burden, how big can it really be? and should we not keep them on board to help keep the game strong?

There is actually very little difference (for the NH sides) except the possibility of 2 extra November games. Most of the 6Ns teams won't play these extra games - so no real change. Presumably the 6Ns and RC winners will be guaranteed a semi. Winning the 6Ns may mean an extra home fixture with a guaranteed sell out.

2 extra November games is a pretty big change though (for those that get it), and it will surely impact upon the club games. It would be hard to fit in 2 club comps in with these. It would actually probably benefit Leinster as they have a strong academy to fill the jerseys, but that's an aside.

What fans would turn down an annual fixture against the All Blacks, Oz and SA.

Do you know, I think I would. Too much of a good thing and all that. The current rotation type system is quite fun and maintains some element of novelty. You would also end up with it being 2 sets of "squad" players playing each other (because player loads are higher) which is much less appealing than 2 first XV's playing one another.

Not picking on you particularly Tiger. I just think its all a terrible idea and really regressive.

razorblunt · 28-02-2019 1:18pm

Yeah, the IRFU can take a long walk off a short pier if they think I'm going to support any of this nonsense.

I see Sexton has had a pop off Pichot.

sydthebeat · 28-02-2019 1:21pm

so ...im very confused....

how can they expect all nations to play each other once, meaning at least 11 international games each... plus the "area leagues" in which the 6 nations and rugby championship would have 5 games each..... meaning 16 international tests per year.

irelands test players would aim to play around 1400 minutes per season, which equate to about 18 games....... and even at that its considered a tough slog.

English players and french players, which the unison have less control over playing times, would be flogged even further, thus diminishing the quality of their national team.

Also, lions tour is dead.

why would the IRFU risk the unstabilising of at least €15million funds from the 6 nations for €8 million to take part in this competition (with no possibility of other income through international games?)

the yearly synchronized schedule makes sense... but creating an annual competition absolutely does not.

Make it a 4 year competition that:
1, concludes in middle of the RWC cycle
2, has relegation and promotion based on secondary similar tier 2 competition AND performances at previous RWC
3, reduce the number of games from 11 to 5/6 per annum, with every team playing the other home and away over the 4 year period.
4, allow for a 2 game window per annum where unions can continue to either tour or host by invitation, against teams they are not due to play that year.

World League thread

Comments