St. Michan's Church vandalised

skooterblue2 · 26-02-2019 03:09AM

JayZeus wrote: »

They were not placed there to be treated either as an educational or entertainment/tourist attraction. I find it impossible to reconcile the disrespectful treatment of those remains in allowing public access with an argument in favour of educating people or paying for roof and building repairs.

Let the congregation pay for the upkeep of the church building while showing respect for those who were laid to rest beneath it, both Catholic and Protestant. The vaults should be sealed permanently at this stage.

I agree the congregation should pay but when the congregation is so small, then other revenue streams have to be found. Honestly how many people reading this thread would go to see where Handel played his first Messiah? Or would you rather see where a "giant" crusader, crossed half the known world fought in a war between two super powers at the axis point of the world and returned home to Dublin only to be struck down by the Black Death. In the rush to bury him they had no coffin so they broke both of his legs to fit him into a smaller coffin, such was the terror of the Bubonic plague at the time. Now which story do you think would be sold to a 14 year old boy?

The cost of these tradesmen and their materials is phenomenal for the upkeep. If you think €80 is expensive to get a trades man to look at a washing is expensive then masonry is a real eye opener. You want to observe these architecture marvels of their day, but not to pay.

Cookie_Monster · 26-02-2019 04:26AM

who goes to all that trouble and then doesn't even burn the church down, amateurs :rolleyes:

up for anything · 26-02-2019 06:38AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

not to mention the crusader who died during the black death

If there is any justice the robbers should now be curious about the painful suppurating buboes appearing in their groins and under their armpits and their general feeling of ill-health and the evil Irish villain Charlieyahhug is laughing maniacally and hugging himself with glee as he waits for Indiana Jones to provide the last part of the key to the Machu Pichu machine which will give him control of Ireland again as a stepping stone to domination of the EU and a chance to crush the Chinese and take over as President of the One World Commission thus ensuring a steady supply of handmade shirts and guns and grabbable pussy.

Meanwhile, Dr Richard Langdon should be booking into the Shelbourne ready to save Ireland and the rest of the world from a resurgence of the bubonic plague and destroying the evil Charlieyahhug with the help of a gorgeous Voodoo high priestess whose grandfather was instrumental in secretly keeping Charlieyahhug alive using the blood of young Irish virgins until the Machu Pichu machine could breath new life force into him.

ozmo · 26-02-2019 11:50AM

Interesting article from 1835 about a previous time one of the heads were stolen - this time it was the mummy of one of the Sheares brothers? (who was I believe hung drawn and quartered by the English for being United Irishmen.)
It seems they got it back that time.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zZpZDcm7zFEC&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=Miss+Crookshanks+nun&source=bl&ots=6B28YMACHY&sig=ACfU3U3diVeqa8vN4K-wBQXADRJpLtarOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ2cWhv9fgAhUZRBUIHWQoBU4Q6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Miss%20Crookshanks%20nun&f=false

Plopsu · 26-02-2019 12:00PM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its also where Handel played his Messiah,

Handel's Messiah premiered in Fishamble Street in a music hall, not in St Michan's church.

Floppybits · 26-02-2019 12:35PM

Plopsu wrote: »

Handel's Messiah premiered in Fishamble Street in a music hall, not in St Michan's church.

It is said that Handel composed the Messiah on the organ in the church.

Been the St Michan's a couple of times before it became well known, always enjoyed the visit. Some the coffins in the other crypts are spectacular, think it is something to do the Earls of Leitrim. What sort of person would do something like this?

jimgoose · 26-02-2019 12:43PM

SKILFUL wrote: »

And that is a good thing

Catholics out of dublin
Muslims in

St. Michan's is Reformed Anglican Communion, a.k.a. Church of Ireland. I don't, however, believe that you are a particularly credible individual.

Whoever did this would want a good skinning with a whip.

Plopsu · 26-02-2019 12:44PM

Floppybits wrote: »

It is said that Handel composed the Messiah on the organ in the church.

Is there a source for that? From what I've read, it would appear that he had the composition done before he arrived in Dublin (though some revisions were required).

Floppybits · 26-02-2019 12:45PM

Plopsu wrote: »

Is there a source for that? From what I've read, it would appear that he had the composition done before he arrived in Dublin (though some revisions were required).

Handel told me himself.

Plopsu · 26-02-2019 02:15PM

Floppybits wrote: »

Handel told me himself.

Right so, good that we've got a handel on it.

Dial Hard · 26-02-2019 02:22PM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its also where Handel played his Messiah

No it's not, that was the Great Music Hall in Fishamble St, which is beside Christchurch.

skooterblue2 · 26-02-2019 02:28PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

No it's not, that was the Great Music Hall in Fishamble St, which is beside Christchurch.

Well then he composed it in Saint Michans then :

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-glorious-history-of-handels-messiah-148168540/

RobertKK · 26-02-2019 02:32PM

This is part of our heritage. It should come with a very heavy penalty if one destroys or intentionally damages what is our history and heritage.
We are just guardians for the future and destruction of artifacts, graves, mummies, whatever historical item/site is depriving future generations of what is their heritage.
There is no respect for the people of Ireland or the nation when this is done, and people who do this need to pay heavily.

ohnonotgmail · 26-02-2019 02:34PM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well then he composed it in Saint Michans then :

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-glorious-history-of-handels-messiah-148168540/

No.

It burst onto the stage of Musick Hall in Dublin on April 13, 1742

Handel composed Messiah in an astounding interlude, somewhere between three and four weeks in August and September 1741.

ozmo · 26-02-2019 02:41PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No.

Its on Wikipedia as well - but possibly should just read "practiced" or "played"

", the interior boasts some fine woodwork, and an organ (dated 1724) on which Handel is said to have composed his Messiah.[4]"

And - on the official Church Site they have:

The Organ

The delightfully decorated instrument was built by John Baptiste Cuvillie between 1723-1725. The cost of the organ was £470 (about €550) which included the case, two manuals, eleven stops and three bellows. In front of the gallery is the ‘Organ Trophy’ a piece of wood depicting 17 musical instruments, possibly carved by Henry Houghton or John Houghton. The ‘Trophy’ was installed in 1724. Legend has it that Handel practised for the first performance of ‘Messiah’ on this organ.

Dial Hard · 26-02-2019 02:45PM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well then he composed it in Saint Michans then :

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-glorious-history-of-handels-messiah-148168540/

There is literally no mention of St. Michan's in that article. Nor in any other literature on the Messiah I'm familiar with.

Plopsu · 26-02-2019 02:48PM

ozmo wrote: »

Its on Wikipedia as well - but possibly should just read "practiced" or "played"

", the interior boasts some fine woodwork, and an organ (dated 1724) on which Handel is said to have composed his Messiah.[4]"

And - on the official Church Site they have:

The Organ

The delightfully decorated instrument was built by John Baptiste Cuvillie between 1723-1725. The cost of the organ was £470 (about €550) which included the case, two manuals, eleven stops and three bellows. In front of the gallery is the ‘Organ Trophy’ a piece of wood depicting 17 musical instruments, possibly carved by Henry Houghton or John Houghton. The ‘Trophy’ was installed in 1724. Legend has it that Handel practised for the first performance of ‘Messiah’ on this organ.

Phrases like "is said to" and "legend has it" are generally code for "we're making this up".

Anything you read about Handel and The Messiah (or anything I've read at least) would indicate that he had the work complete before he arrived in Dublin. He might well have practised on the organ in St Michan's but doesn't seem to have composed there.

ohnonotgmail · 26-02-2019 02:52PM

ozmo wrote: »

Its on Wikipedia as well - but possibly should just read "practiced" or "played"

", the interior boasts some fine woodwork, and an organ (dated 1724) on which Handel is said to have composed his Messiah.[4]"

And - on the official Church Site they have:

The Organ

The delightfully decorated instrument was built by John Baptiste Cuvillie between 1723-1725. The cost of the organ was £470 (about €550) which included the case, two manuals, eleven stops and three bellows. In front of the gallery is the ‘Organ Trophy’ a piece of wood depicting 17 musical instruments, possibly carved by Henry Houghton or John Houghton. The ‘Trophy’ was installed in 1724. Legend has it that Handel practised for the first performance of ‘Messiah’ on this organ.

practised <> composed.

skooterblue2 · 26-02-2019 02:53PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

There is literally no mention of St. Michan's in that article. Nor in any other literature on the Messiah I'm familiar with.

https://www.dublinvisitorcentre.ie/party-people/st-michans-church/

there you go. :

"St. Michan’s Church is not only is the site one of the oldest practicing spiritual grounds in Dublin (dating back as far as 1095) but more famously St. Michan’s is home to the organ (1724) on which George Frederic Handel is said to have composed the Messiah."

ohnonotgmail · 26-02-2019 02:55PM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

https://www.dublinvisitorcentre.ie/party-people/st-michans-church/

there you go. :

"St. Michan’s Church is not only is the site one of the oldest practicing spiritual grounds in Dublin (dating back as far as 1095) but more famously St. Michan’s is home to the organ (1724) on which George Frederic Handel is said to have composed the Messiah."

except according to the article you linked to yourself he composed the Messiah in august and september 1741. I am open to correction on this but he wasn't living in dublin at that time.

ozmo · 26-02-2019 02:55PM

Anyway - back on topic

Is there any update on this anywhere today - was the place irreparably trashed - hopefully its not as bad as first reports? It's making the news sites all over the world.

Plopsu · 26-02-2019 02:56PM

Maybe it is the organ that he composed on. Maybe the church bought it at a later date.

realdanbreen · 26-02-2019 02:59PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

*looks at username*

It spells 'asshole' if you hold it to a mirror.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 26-02-2019 03:19PM

I loved St. Michan’s church when I was visited it. Vaults! Mummies! Death masks! What’s not to love? An underrated tourist attraction. It was my joint-favourite pit stop on our sixth class school tour to Dublin, along with the Long Room in the TCD library (meh to the Book of Kells but the Long Room is absolutely stunning and worth the queuing).

I despair when I hear of the Guinness Storehouse being ranked as the top Irish tourist attraction.

The Satanist · 26-02-2019 06:25PM

realdanbreen wrote: »

It spells 'asshole' if you hold it to a mirror.

0o0o0o0 aren't we an angry ant today

ozmo · 27-02-2019 04:52PM

Small update to the story today on journal..

https://www.thejournal.ie/st-michans-church-appeal-head-crusader-4515474-Feb2019/

"vandalism of a peculiar kind"
"Extensive damage"
"not 'mindless vandalism' but .. a crime that had been planned in advance"

They left a message...

goose2005 · 07-03-2019 08:18PM

Now they've recovered it

https://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-recover-head-of-800-year-old-mummy-stolen-from-crypt-of-dublins-st-michans-church-4525558-Mar2019/

The items were recovered as a result of information given to investigating gardaí.

The National Museum of Ireland is acting in an advisory capacity in the case.

Archbishop Jackson welcomed today’s recovery saying that “the emphasis will now be able to turn to consideration of future security and display of the remains in the crypt of St Michan’s”.

Spanish Eyes · 07-03-2019 08:22PM

Glad the parts were recovered.

But I still think the church and vaults needs to up its game regarding security right now.

This is not the first time this has happened either.

Spooky place, but if you haven't seen it, I recommend it! A hidden gem.

Rubberlegs · 07-03-2019 08:33PM

A fascinating place, never forgot my visit there some years ago. You would have to wonder what would be going through someone's head to vandalise it.

Grid. · 07-03-2019 08:38PM

Shame they couldn't dig a bit deeper and actually get the person who done it!:rolleyes:

St. Michan's Church vandalised

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