St. Michan's Church vandalised

CiarraiAbu2

Probably only get a slap in the wrist if caught but I would really like to know why? What kick do get out of this.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1032776/

sk8erboii

' solid steel internal gate was removed,'

Doesnt sound like a drunken night out. More like professionals out to make a statement

Spanish Eyes

There is a thread on this in History, but hopefully AH will get more traffic.

Heathens they are anyway for doing this. Uneducated criminals. Sorry for the rant.

It is a hidden gem and spooky, but a great place to visit. Many Dubs and other Irish have little knowledge of this place.

Very well worth a visit. But obviously not for months now. Feckers.

Harry Palmr

First time since the mid 90s so probably the children of the original vandals.

sk8erboii

sk8erboii wrote: »

' solid steel internal gate was removed,'

Doesnt sound like a drunken night out. More like professionals out to make a statement

The strangest part of the whole thing is that something similar happened in the late 1990s: some young lads broke into the crypt, and allegedy played soccer with a dismembered skull.

You'd reckon sound heads would prevail by now. Hhnghhh.

AllForIt

hynesie08

Anywhere else in Europe if you ****ed with a heritage site you'd be looking at jail time, but here you might get a slap on the wrist if you're unlucky....... Ridiculous.

Shame as it's a true hidden gem of Dublin.

hmmm

I think we should bring back flogging. A slap on the wrist just isn't enough any more, and we can't keep them all in jail.

irishgeo

hynesie08 wrote: »

Anywhere else in Europe if you ****ed with a heritage site you'd be looking at jail time, but here you might get a slap on the wrist if you're unlucky....... Ridiculous.

Shame as it's a true hidden gem of Dublin.

Often people dont get jail, plenty of suspended sentences handed out for been caught damaging walls in Auschwitz

wakka12

God that is horrible .800 hundred years old like

irishgeo

irishgeo wrote: »

Often people dont get jail, plenty of suspended sentences handed out for been caught damaging walls in Auschwitz

And that doesn't seem right either.

Difference between this and Auschwitz, though, is that in this case the individuals concerned have been dead for hundreds, perhaps almost a thousand years. They have no known living descendants.

BBFAN

Was just waiting for the muslim reference. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sir Oxman

Just read about that now.
I'm angry.
it's just so fckin dumb.

The Satanist

They haven't even considered the possibility that old Mrs Mummy rose from the dead and done a runner. Kind of odd since their whole belief is based on a similar tale lol

ohnonotgmail

The Satanist wrote: »

They haven't even considered the possibility that old Mrs Mummy rose from the dead and done a runner. Kind of odd since their whole belief is based on a similar tale lol

did the head run off on its own?

ohnonotgmail

BBFAN wrote: »

Was just waiting for the muslim reference. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

they never disappoint.

The Satanist

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

did the head run off on its own?

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

skooterblue2

hmmm wrote: »

I think we should bring back flogging. A slap on the wrist just isn't enough any more, and we can't keep them all in jail.

You mean proper flogging with cat o' nine tails. Anyone who has previously visited or are historically connected to the church can give them each 12 of the best. I will taking it easy to dust them off with salt afterwards.

ohnonotgmail

The Satanist wrote: »

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

*looks at username*

ozmo

They seemed to know what the were after - that mummy they destroyed is at the futherest from the enterance and the main attraction of the tour.

goose2005

BBFAN wrote: »

Was just waiting for the muslim reference. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

well, who else would decapitate a crusader skeleton?

skooterblue2

goose2005 wrote: »

well, who else would decapitate a crusader skeleton?

Well there have been churches and grave years descretated right across Europe in the last few years.

YFlyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

*looks at username*

I'm sure many, if not most, satanic sects would acknowledge the existence of a God.

MarkY91

A place I kept planing to visit but never got to.


Complete and utter scumbags. How could someone ruin a piece of history like that? This really pissed me off.

skooterblue2

wakka12 wrote: »

God that is horrible .800 hundred years old like

Its also where Handel played his Messiah, the woodcutting that used to adorn the £50 note. not to mention the crusader who died during the black death, some of the most prominent Dublin families are buried there

SKILFUL

Leftys are trying to frame muslims for this
Muslimz would never do this
Only the left would sink this low

I think it’s disgusting behaviour. Disgusting to treat the remains of a human being like this.

Disgusted by the Church turning those and other remains into a tourist attraction and by the vandals for their actions.

It’s about time the remains were properly interred and the crypts permanently closed to the public. If the church learned its lesson the first time vandals caused damage, instead of thinking about footfall and revenue (a prime concern, no doubt), there would be no reason for this thread.

Arseholes.

skooterblue2

JayZeus wrote: »

Disgusted by the Church turning those and other remains into a tourist attraction and by the vandals for their actions.

It’s about time the remains were properly interred and the crypts permanently closed to the public. If the church learned its lesson the first time vandals caused damage, instead of thinking about footfall and revenue (a prime concern, no doubt), there would be no reason for this thread.
.

A building is a living thing, it needs to be aired and heated. Look at all those government hospitals that were abandoned and within 2 years they had gone to rack and ruin. These buildings also have an educational function as well. Moulds and mildews and rots would set into the wood. Part of the crypts is the limestone preserves the bodies.

This is about education and respect or lack there of.

skooterblue2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

A building is a living thing, it needs to be aired and heated. Look at all those government hospitals that were abandoned and within 2 years they had gone to rack and ruin. These buildings also have an educational function as well. Moulds and mildews and rots would set into the wood. Part of the crypts is the limestone preserves the bodies.

This is about education and respect or lack there of.

The crypt does not need to be heated or ‘aired’, nor does it need tourists and the maintenance of access-ways to facilitate them.

The crypts are the final resting places, or should be, for the religious faithful (and I’m not) whose remains were placed there. The public/tourists have no business going there and the Church of Ireland have no business running tours into the crypts either.

This is most certainly about a lack of respect.

skooterblue2

JayZeus wrote: »

The crypt does not need to be heated or ‘aired’, nor does it need tourists and the maintenance of access-ways to facilitate them.

The crypts are the final resting places, or should be, for the religious faithful (and I’m not) whose remains were placed there. The public/tourists have no business going there and the Church of Ireland have no business running tours into the crypts either.

This is most certainly about a lack of respect.

True but those stone buildings do need maintenance and roofs need to be fixed and maintained. If more people attended services and paid dues then there would be less need for tours. The main selling point for me going to St. Michans was to see the crypts. Stone masons, steeple jacks and roofers all cost massive money. If you are not a member of the congregation then you really arent entitled to get a say. Have you actually visited any of these sites? taken rubbings from flag stones? All these trades men and services have to be paid for in someway or other. Have you ever seen the work and perfection that goes into stone masonry? Seen all the tools and each piece fits from an architects plans to completion often decades later (sometimes after the architect has died)? How do you propose the building upkeeps itself, if you cut off its largest revenue stream?

I have been there and found it fantastic rewarding and educational experience. I have often wondered what was the story behind the "giant" 6ft crusader and how he travelled back and forth to the holy land and what he saw there. I did it just this evening as my girlfriend watched "Celebrity Dating". You see the contrast in education there?

skooterblue2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

True but those stone buildings do need maintenance and roofs need to be fixed and maintained. If more people attended services and paid dues then there would be less need for tours.

I have been there and found it fantastic rewarding and educational experience. I have often wondered what was the story behind the "giant" 6ft crusader and how he travelled back and forth to the holy land and what he saw there. I did it just this evening as my girlfriend watched "Celebrity Dating". You see the contrast in education there?

I see a clear difference in education alright. And respect.

When those remains were placed there and later when they were moved as the crypts were altered/repaired, they were interred with respect in what was and should be a ‘place of rest’.

They were not placed there to be treated either as an educational or entertainment/tourist attraction. I find it impossible to reconcile the disrespectful treatment of those remains in allowing public access with an argument in favour of educating people or paying for roof and building repairs.

Let the congregation pay for the upkeep of the church building while showing respect for those who were laid to rest beneath it, both Catholic and Protestant. The vaults should be sealed permanently at this stage.

skooterblue2

JayZeus wrote: »

They were not placed there to be treated either as an educational or entertainment/tourist attraction. I find it impossible to reconcile the disrespectful treatment of those remains in allowing public access with an argument in favour of educating people or paying for roof and building repairs.

Let the congregation pay for the upkeep of the church building while showing respect for those who were laid to rest beneath it, both Catholic and Protestant. The vaults should be sealed permanently at this stage.

I agree the congregation should pay but when the congregation is so small, then other revenue streams have to be found. Honestly how many people reading this thread would go to see where Handel played his first Messiah? Or would you rather see where a "giant" crusader, crossed half the known world fought in a war between two super powers at the axis point of the world and returned home to Dublin only to be struck down by the Black Death. In the rush to bury him they had no coffin so they broke both of his legs to fit him into a smaller coffin, such was the terror of the Bubonic plague at the time. Now which story do you think would be sold to a 14 year old boy?

The cost of these tradesmen and their materials is phenomenal for the upkeep. If you think €80 is expensive to get a trades man to look at a washing is expensive then masonry is a real eye opener. You want to observe these architecture marvels of their day, but not to pay.

Cookie_Monster

who goes to all that trouble and then doesn't even burn the church down, amateurs :rolleyes:

up for anything

skooterblue2 wrote: »

not to mention the crusader who died during the black death

If there is any justice the robbers should now be curious about the painful suppurating buboes appearing in their groins and under their armpits and their general feeling of ill-health and the evil Irish villain Charlieyahhug is laughing maniacally and hugging himself with glee as he waits for Indiana Jones to provide the last part of the key to the Machu Pichu machine which will give him control of Ireland again as a stepping stone to domination of the EU and a chance to crush the Chinese and take over as President of the One World Commission thus ensuring a steady supply of handmade shirts and guns and grabbable pussy.

Meanwhile, Dr Richard Langdon should be booking into the Shelbourne ready to save Ireland and the rest of the world from a resurgence of the bubonic plague and destroying the evil Charlieyahhug with the help of a gorgeous Voodoo high priestess whose grandfather was instrumental in secretly keeping Charlieyahhug alive using the blood of young Irish virgins until the Machu Pichu machine could breath new life force into him.

ozmo

Interesting article from 1835 about a previous time one of the heads were stolen - this time it was the mummy of one of the Sheares brothers? (who was I believe hung drawn and quartered by the English for being United Irishmen.)
It seems they got it back that time.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zZpZDcm7zFEC&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=Miss+Crookshanks+nun&source=bl&ots=6B28YMACHY&sig=ACfU3U3diVeqa8vN4K-wBQXADRJpLtarOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ2cWhv9fgAhUZRBUIHWQoBU4Q6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Miss%20Crookshanks%20nun&f=false

Plopsu

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its also where Handel played his Messiah,

Handel's Messiah premiered in Fishamble Street in a music hall, not in St Michan's church.

Floppybits

Plopsu wrote: »

Handel's Messiah premiered in Fishamble Street in a music hall, not in St Michan's church.

It is said that Handel composed the Messiah on the organ in the church.

Been the St Michan's a couple of times before it became well known, always enjoyed the visit. Some the coffins in the other crypts are spectacular, think it is something to do the Earls of Leitrim. What sort of person would do something like this?

jimgoose

SKILFUL wrote: »

And that is a good thing

Catholics out of dublin
Muslims in

St. Michan's is Reformed Anglican Communion, a.k.a. Church of Ireland. I don't, however, believe that you are a particularly credible individual.

Whoever did this would want a good skinning with a whip.

Plopsu

Floppybits wrote: »

It is said that Handel composed the Messiah on the organ in the church.

Is there a source for that? From what I've read, it would appear that he had the composition done before he arrived in Dublin (though some revisions were required).

Floppybits

Plopsu wrote: »

Is there a source for that? From what I've read, it would appear that he had the composition done before he arrived in Dublin (though some revisions were required).

Handel told me himself.

Plopsu

Floppybits wrote: »

Handel told me himself.

Right so, good that we've got a handel on it.

Dial Hard

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its also where Handel played his Messiah

No it's not, that was the Great Music Hall in Fishamble St, which is beside Christchurch.

skooterblue2

Dial Hard wrote: »

No it's not, that was the Great Music Hall in Fishamble St, which is beside Christchurch.

Well then he composed it in Saint Michans then :

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-glorious-history-of-handels-messiah-148168540/

RobertKK

This is part of our heritage. It should come with a very heavy penalty if one destroys or intentionally damages what is our history and heritage.
We are just guardians for the future and destruction of artifacts, graves, mummies, whatever historical item/site is depriving future generations of what is their heritage.
There is no respect for the people of Ireland or the nation when this is done, and people who do this need to pay heavily.

ohnonotgmail

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well then he composed it in Saint Michans then :

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-glorious-history-of-handels-messiah-148168540/

No.

It burst onto the stage of Musick Hall in Dublin on April 13, 1742

Handel composed Messiah in an astounding interlude, somewhere between three and four weeks in August and September 1741.

ozmo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No.

Its on Wikipedia as well - but possibly should just read "practiced" or "played"

", the interior boasts some fine woodwork, and an organ (dated 1724) on which Handel is said to have composed his Messiah.[4]"

And - on the official Church Site they have:

The Organ

The delightfully decorated instrument was built by John Baptiste Cuvillie between 1723-1725. The cost of the organ was £470 (about €550) which included the case, two manuals, eleven stops and three bellows. In front of the gallery is the ‘Organ Trophy’ a piece of wood depicting 17 musical instruments, possibly carved by Henry Houghton or John Houghton. The ‘Trophy’ was installed in 1724. Legend has it that Handel practised for the first performance of ‘Messiah’ on this organ.

Dial Hard

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well then he composed it in Saint Michans then :

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-glorious-history-of-handels-messiah-148168540/

There is literally no mention of St. Michan's in that article. Nor in any other literature on the Messiah I'm familiar with.

Plopsu

ozmo wrote: »

Its on Wikipedia as well - but possibly should just read "practiced" or "played"

", the interior boasts some fine woodwork, and an organ (dated 1724) on which Handel is said to have composed his Messiah.[4]"

And - on the official Church Site they have:

The Organ

The delightfully decorated instrument was built by John Baptiste Cuvillie between 1723-1725. The cost of the organ was £470 (about €550) which included the case, two manuals, eleven stops and three bellows. In front of the gallery is the ‘Organ Trophy’ a piece of wood depicting 17 musical instruments, possibly carved by Henry Houghton or John Houghton. The ‘Trophy’ was installed in 1724. Legend has it that Handel practised for the first performance of ‘Messiah’ on this organ.

Phrases like "is said to" and "legend has it" are generally code for "we're making this up".

Anything you read about Handel and The Messiah (or anything I've read at least) would indicate that he had the work complete before he arrived in Dublin. He might well have practised on the organ in St Michan's but doesn't seem to have composed there.

ohnonotgmail

ozmo wrote: »

Its on Wikipedia as well - but possibly should just read "practiced" or "played"

", the interior boasts some fine woodwork, and an organ (dated 1724) on which Handel is said to have composed his Messiah.[4]"

And - on the official Church Site they have:

The Organ

The delightfully decorated instrument was built by John Baptiste Cuvillie between 1723-1725. The cost of the organ was £470 (about €550) which included the case, two manuals, eleven stops and three bellows. In front of the gallery is the ‘Organ Trophy’ a piece of wood depicting 17 musical instruments, possibly carved by Henry Houghton or John Houghton. The ‘Trophy’ was installed in 1724. Legend has it that Handel practised for the first performance of ‘Messiah’ on this organ.

practised <> composed.

skooterblue2

Dial Hard wrote: »

There is literally no mention of St. Michan's in that article. Nor in any other literature on the Messiah I'm familiar with.

https://www.dublinvisitorcentre.ie/party-people/st-michans-church/

there you go. :

"St. Michan’s Church is not only is the site one of the oldest practicing spiritual grounds in Dublin (dating back as far as 1095) but more famously St. Michan’s is home to the organ (1724) on which George Frederic Handel is said to have composed the Messiah."

ohnonotgmail

skooterblue2 wrote: »

https://www.dublinvisitorcentre.ie/party-people/st-michans-church/

there you go. :

"St. Michan’s Church is not only is the site one of the oldest practicing spiritual grounds in Dublin (dating back as far as 1095) but more famously St. Michan’s is home to the organ (1724) on which George Frederic Handel is said to have composed the Messiah."

except according to the article you linked to yourself he composed the Messiah in august and september 1741. I am open to correction on this but he wasn't living in dublin at that time.