Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

25-02-2019 10:28PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Were your grandparents also first cousins?

No. You are claiming that arranged marriages didn’t happen in Ireland. I’m giving an example of one that I know WAS arranged. (Actually, my grandmothers sister married my grandads first cousin! I think they were the matchmakers for my grandparents)

donkeykong5 · 25-02-2019 10:29PM

BBFAN wrote: »

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Peter Casey for taoiseach....NOW!

You make such intelligent posts I'm shocked that you don't have a huge fanbase.

Ah cheers pal. Thanks !

BBFAN · 25-02-2019 10:29PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

My great grandfather died at the age of 96. Not an arranged marriage and as I said first time I heard the claim on hear. I can only assume your parents are from India tbh.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Again telling more lies I asked a question. You really are poor at this.

You're the one who suggested a posters parents were from India???b

That wasn't a question.

BBFAN · 25-02-2019 10:31PM

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Ah cheers pal. Thanks !

Another very intelligent answer. Don't know where you come up with them. :pac:

Plumbthedepths · 25-02-2019 10:31PM

Deleted User wrote:

No. You are claiming that arranged marriages didnâ€™t happen in Ireland. Iâ€™m giving an example of one that I know WAS arranged. (Actually, my grandmothers sister married my grandads first cousin! I think they were the matchmakers for my grandparents)

No I claimed from the experience of my family that it was not the norm, despite a poster claiming it was. I know noone who's family had an arranged marriage. I'm in my forties. Cool about your grandaunt but it wasn't her cousin she married.

Plumbthedepths · 25-02-2019 10:33PM

BBFAN wrote:

You're the one who suggested a posters parents were from India???b

I said I assume, my bad. You claimed I said the poster was from India. So we were both wrong the difference is I admitted my mistake about saying it was a question any chance you'd correct your lies?

tuxy · 25-02-2019 10:33PM

I wonder how Mags is getting on over in England, I'm lost without her facebook updates :P

Plumbthedepths · 25-02-2019 10:35PM

tuxy wrote:

I wonder how Mags is getting on over in England, I'm lost without her facebook updates

It was a midterm break with the 'angles' so I assume she is back and the kids are in school, unless she went 'shopping' in Primark.

tuxy · 25-02-2019 10:38PM

I think she left on Friday so won't be back for a few more days. Lets face it, the childers education is the last thing on her mind.

Plumbthedepths · 25-02-2019 11:24PM

tuxy wrote:

I think she left on Friday so won't be back for a few more days. Lets face it, the childers education is the last thing on her mind.

Seems to be a cultural thing you could say.

25-02-2019 11:26PM

Dante7 wrote: »

Ok, so you agree that it was an unsavoury practice?

Well, not necessarily. I have a set of great grandparents who were cousins. If you look into your own history, you almost certainly have, too.

Statistically speaking, it doesn't tend to be a major problem when it happens in a limited way. But absolutely nobody says it should be encouraged either. My only point is that most have us have some consanguinity in our blood, if our family is predominantly from this island. In that sense, our genes are not very different to the travellers.

Dante7 · 26-02-2019 12:37AM

Dante7 wrote: »

Ok, so you agree that it was an unsavoury practice?

Waiting for the answer to this question, Tyrant. Please answer so that we can continue this rational debate...

Paddy Cow · 26-02-2019 01:13AM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

So anyway. That's my own personal experience of what happens when one wants to better themselves.

And people like gormdubhgorm and tranny named matilda will tell you that it's all the fault of settled people.

Someone made a post a few days ago about Francie Barrett and another boxer who were doing very well for themselves until they had their careers ruined and were dragged down by other Travellers. It made for very sad reading. Tall poppy syndrome is definitely a thing in Traveller culture.

I even hate referring to it as "culture". It's regressive, oppressive and keeps people trapped in the benefits cycle. Traveller males have a much higher suicide rate that settled people. I wonder how many of them are gay men who can't find their place in their "culture"?. I wonder how many lesbians are married off and forced to have sex with a man whenever he feels like it, even though that's the last thing they want? Funny how the outspoken LGBT+ community won't touch that with a barge pole.

We look down on regimes like Saudi Arabia where women are denied education and teen brides are the norm. We say they need to progress and join the rest of the developed world, yet if we say the same thing about Travellers, suddenly we're racist (despite them being the same race).

26-02-2019 01:57AM

Dante7 wrote: »

Waiting for the answer to this question, Tyrant. Please answer so that we can continue this rational debate...

I thought I'd just answered this.

Nobody would encourage repeated consanguinity through generations, but there's good evidence which suggests that we all have it to some extent..

That's why CF is so dominant in the Irish population, for example. Its not necessarily to be encouraged, but most of us have this tradition in our families.

padd b1975 · 26-02-2019 02:15AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

My great grandfather died at the age of 96. Not an arranged marriage and as I said first time I heard the claim on hear. I can only assume your parents are from India tbh.

Lol.

They're from rural Mayo.

I can think of at least six marriages off the top of my head within a five mile radius of where I grew up that were what we would call a 'cleamhnas' or match, you could double that if speaking to my mother.

Like a lot of things at that time, the finer details weren't really up for public discussion, but it would still have been known how certain couples got together, an open secret I suppose.

Dante7 · 26-02-2019 02:23AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I thought I'd just answered this.

Nobody would encourage repeated consanguinity through generations, but there's good evidence which suggests that we all have it to some extent..

That's why CF is so dominant in the Irish population, for example. Its not necessarily to be encouraged, but most of us have this tradition in our families.

You haven't answered the simple question I asked. Was the arranged marriage practice that you mentioned a bad thing? You can take your time. I'm not going anywhere. When you eventually answer that question we can move on to the next logical step. Or do you want to bow out now?

AllForIt · 26-02-2019 02:27AM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I wonder how many of them are gay men who can't find their place in their "culture"?. I wonder how many lesbians are married off and forced to have sex with a man whenever he feels like it, even though that's the last thing they want? Funny how the outspoken LGBT+ community won't touch that with a barge pole.

Not sure what you mean by that. The last thing LGB activists would do is support exclusion. LGB folk have the same views on the traveller community as everyone else speaking as one of them. I would find it bizarre if LGB activists in Ireland are defending the traveller demographic simply because of a loose similar issues of discrimination. If they are, and you seem to think they are, I personally wouldn't share their stance on it. Not in a million years would I.

Paddy Cow · 26-02-2019 02:44AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I thought I'd just answered this.

Nobody would encourage repeated consanguinity through generations, but there's good evidence which suggests that we all have it to some extent..

That's why CF is so dominant in the Irish population, for example. Its not necessarily to be encouraged, but most of us have this tradition in our families.

If you go back far enough, we're all related. CF is dominant in Ireland not because of cousins marrying cousins (which is what consanguinity means in the Traveller community) but because we didn't have a lot of outsiders coming in to mix with us. I can guarantee you that it was not tradition in my family for cousins to marry cousins. It's actually not something that's accepted. I've a relative who married her 4th cousin. At that stage it's so far removed there's very little genetic over lap. She still gets slagged for being inbred.

Just so you know, first cousins have 12.5% of their DNA in common. Fourth cousins have only 0.2%. Third cousins have 0.78%. Long ago when people didn't travel much and married within their village, it probably wasn't unheard of for third or fourth cousins to marry. That is completely different to first cousins marrying generation after generation.

Whatever happened in the past, we are far more educated on DNA now. I doubt you'll find many/any Irish people (excluding Travellers) who would be willing to marry their first cousin. We can argue back and forth about what happened in the past. It's irrelevant. We're talking about today and today consanguinity is not a part of Irish culture (apart from Travellers).

Ipso · 26-02-2019 07:10AM

Irish people seem to be fairly endogamous, but it’s more to do with small rural poulations with little influx.
Given travellers are from the same ancestral background and became more isolated you’d expect them to be more endogamous.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987482/#!po=0.877193

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 26-02-2019 08:46AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But certainly when you go further back in history, between the mid-18th century up until the Famine era, arranged marriages would have been far more explicit.

There's no justification whatsoever for someone like Margaret Cash, born in an advanced Western democracy circa 1990, to have been taken out of school at age 12 and married off at 15 so that she could start popping out babies at an age when other girls her age were sitting the Junior Cert.

You're trying to legitimize the practice of arranged consanguineous marriage by referring back to the eighteenth century. Well, how would it sound if I tried to justify owning a slave, or burning a witch, on the basis that such practices were also acceptable in the eighteenth century? Pretty ridiculous, right?

To point out the obvious, numerous things were acceptable centuries ago that are no longer acceptable today. The arranged consanguineous marriage of girls in their mid-teens, still going on among Travellers in 2019, is a disgraceful practice that cannot be rationalized by reference to history, culture, or anything else.

I appreciate that those on the left will defend Traveller culture to their dying breath -- but I also suspect that most on the left would want their own daughters to finish school, go to university, get decent jobs, marry spouses of their own choosing, and have children when they are financially secure and emotionally mature. It's beyond me why they defend practices that render many teenage Traveller girls illiterate, married, and raising kids before they can legally vote.

Cryptopagan · 26-02-2019 09:52AM

Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »

There's no justification whatsoever for someone like Margaret Cash, born in an advanced Western democracy circa 1990, to have been taken out of school at age 12 and married off at 15 so that she could start popping out babies at an age when other girls her age were sitting the Junior Cert.

You're trying to legitimize the practice of arranged consanguineous marriage by referring back to the eighteenth century. Well, how would it sound if I tried to justify owning a slave, or burning a witch, on the basis that such practices were also acceptable in the eighteenth century? Pretty ridiculous, right?

To point out the obvious, numerous things were acceptable centuries ago that are no longer acceptable today. The arranged consanguineous marriage of girls in their mid-teens, still going on among Travellers in 2019, is a disgraceful practice that cannot be rationalized by reference to history, culture, or anything else.

I appreciate that those on the left will defend Traveller culture to their dying breath -- but I also suspect that most on the left would want their own daughters to finish school, go to university, get decent jobs, marry spouses of their own choosing, and have children when they are financially secure and emotionally mature. It's beyond me why they defend practices that render many teenage Traveller girls illiterate, married, and raising kids before they can legally vote.

So if these practices are common in the travelling community, how do we go about changing them? Some will argue we need to end child welfare parents and other such benefits, but not having any money has never stopped people marrying young and having large families, quite the opposite. Schools have difficulty addressing truancy among the settled community, never mind those who may be moving around the country, and between countries.

So how do you address these issues among travellers?

Ruraldweller56 · 26-02-2019 10:05AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

So if these practices are common in the travelling community, how do we go about changing them? Some will argue we need to end child welfare parents and other such benefits, but not having any money has never stopped people marrying young and having large families, quite the opposite. Schools have difficulty addressing truancy among the settled community, never mind those who may be moving around the country, and between countries.

So how do you address these issues among travellers?

I don't accept that point at all. People like Margaret would not be popping out 7 kids if she had to feed and clothe them herself. And even if she did, you can be full sure at least some of her own kids would grow up seeing how hard it was to just about exist and say "f this for a game of marbles".

No I'm afraid nip it at the source. Cut out the welfare farce they exist on and the whole thing will die a death within a few generations. Either that or they fund their "culture" themselves.

Lillyfae · 26-02-2019 10:06AM

Had a read about Andy Lee- had never heard of him but what a guy. If that's the stereotype I'm completely on board.

Very sad to hear about Francie Barrett aswell, went to see that documentary about him when I was in school and he was clearly driven and ambitious.

These two exemplify what is possible for travellers, and certainly in the case of Francie it proves that if we continue to ignore the law in favour of their "culture" then their standard of living will not improve no matter what they are given or how the rest of society views/treats them. They are hell bent on stamping out any deviance from their self made norms, to the detriment of their own people. They are already unrecognisable from the people who's children I went to school with in the 80s.

The persistant infantilisation of travellers by the Irish government needs to end. The ruling of the EU on their ethnic minority status needs to investigated (they are not a separate race to indigenous Irish people) and rather than turning them into another version of Roma, we need to stand up and demonstrate that no matter how many of their "demands for racial recognition" they are granted, it is not improving their lot or preserving their culture. If their children are put at risk by their own behaviour they need involvement of Tusla. Disruption to education fined. Underage marriages should be stopped- the Catholic Church also need to be answerable regarding the support of the practice. Criminal behaviour should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Criminal damage to provided shelter fined and minimum standards put in place as a result. Animal cruelty, driving infractions, petty thievery, harrassment of ordinary decent citizens addressed fairly and correctly.

They are invited to the party, they'd just rather throw rocks through the windows than come in.

Cryptopagan · 26-02-2019 10:08AM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

I don't accept that point at all. People like Margaret would not be popping out 7 kids if she had to feed and clothe them herself. And even if she did, you can be full sure at least some of her own kids would grow up seeing how hard it was to just about exist and say "f this for a game of marbles".

No I'm afraid nip it at the source. Cut out the welfare farce they exist on and the whole thing will die a death within a few generations. Either that or they fund their "culture" themselves.

So what? It was common for the poor and uneducated to have large families before there was ever any sort of welfare system in place. Take away the welfare, and poor uneducated people will still have large families.

tuxy · 26-02-2019 10:10AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

So what? It was common for the poor and uneducated to have large families before there was ever any sort of welfare system in place. Take away the welfare, and poor uneducated people will still have large families.

Yes but then it will require them to resort to even more criminality so at least they have to make a real effort, win/win!

Igotadose · 26-02-2019 10:22AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

So what? It was common for the poor and uneducated to have large families before there was ever any sort of welfare system in place. Take away the welfare, and poor uneducated people will still have large families.

Not really, no. When US welfare (much less than Ireland's) stopped going up for additional children (under Clinton), fewer children were born into welfare families. Poor people aren't stupid and having children can be managed easily.

Poor people with huge families coincided with an era of no birth control nor abortion. Those days are over, and they'll stay over if we remain vigilant.

Ruraldweller56 · 26-02-2019 10:26AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

So what? It was common for the poor and uneducated to have large families before there was ever any sort of welfare system in place. Take away the welfare, and poor uneducated people will still have large families.

Exactly.

Very different times.

Do you know of many poor uneducated people that aren't travellers with large families?

Let me guess. You live next door to one?

Ruraldweller56 · 26-02-2019 10:27AM

Igotadose wrote: »

Not really, no. When US welfare (much less than Ireland's) stopped going up for additional children (under Clinton), fewer children were born into welfare families. Poor people aren't stupid and having children can be managed easily.

Poor people with huge families coincided with an era of no birth control nor abortion. Those days are over, and they'll stay over if we remain vigilant.

Horray for infanticide

Cryptopagan · 26-02-2019 10:39AM

Igotadose wrote: »

Not really, no. When US welfare (much less than Ireland's) stopped going up for additional children (under Clinton), fewer children were born into welfare families. Poor people aren't stupid and having children can be managed easily.

Poor people with huge families coincided with an era of no birth control nor abortion. Those days are over, and they'll stay over if we remain vigilant.

I wouldn't know much about the US situation, but I believe those sorts of welfare payments are mostly managed at state level since Clinton's reforms. Nevertheless, teen pregnancy rates have been decreasing steadily since at least 1990 https://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-development/reproductive-health-and-teen-pregnancy/teen-pregnancy-and-childbearing/trends/index.html

Cryptopagan · 26-02-2019 10:41AM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Exactly.

Very different times.

Do you know of many poor uneducated people that aren't travellers with large families?

Let me guess. You live next door to one?

F****** hell, I thought everyone knew that poorer, less well educated people were more likely to have more children and start having children at a younger age than better off and well educated people.

Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

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