Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

BattleCorp · 22-02-2019 08:43AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Wrong question, with respect. Your question is a bit like asking 'are poor people poor because of circumstances, or because they are stupid?'. Neither answer is correct. A better question might be, 'are traveller children achieving optimal educational and life-expectation outcomes in their current living conditions?'. The answer to that is an unambiguous No, and it's all to do with upbringing.

It's not the wrong question.

Poor people can be poor because of their actions (lazy, poor employment skills etc.). But they can also be poor due to factors outside of their control such as no jobs/recession/no transport for work etc.

There aren't that many factors outside of the control of travellers that lead to the shortening of their life-expectancy. I can't think of any really (but it is early in the morning so my brain mightn't be working properly). Diet is certainly under their control. Going to school and doing the leaving cert is certainly under their control. Accessing medical treatment is certainly under their control. Not engaging in feuds and hacking the fcuk out of each other at funerals and weddings is certainly under their control. Not driving a van with a pile of kids in the back with no seat-belts is certainly under their control.

I am going to guess that you'll say that housing isn't under their control. Well, then they are in the same boat as the rest of us in that regard. If they don't have the option of buying a house, they go on a waiting list like the rest of us. They aren't excluded from applying for council houses. They have the same rights or even more rights than the rest of us in that regard.

At some stage travellers are going to have to start taking responsibility for their life choices and in reality, they will have to change.

Any evidence for this? Or just something you invented on a whim?

Ah come on, how many times has it been mentioned here that the percentage of travellers who finish the leaving cert is far far lower than the percentage of settled people who finish the leaving cert.

But don't take my word for it. The ESRI say that 8% of working age travellers completed the leaving certificate compared to 73% of non-travellers. https://www.esri.ie/pubs/RS56.pdf

I've always been amused when people expressed shock or disgust at our selling that pony to the travellers. That family had no plumbing, and about five kids in their van - but sell them a pony and, woah - the middle classes are clambering over their own outrage.

Go to the nearest donkey sanctuary and ask if you can adopt a donkey. Tell them that you have no land, no plumbing, yourself and your five kids are living in a van and see will they allow you to adopt a donkey?

Those people were hard pressed to look after themselves let alone a pony.

If my living circumstances were as you outlined above, I think I'd have better things to do with my money than to buy a pony.

There is a certain segment of Irish society which places greater value on a bloody pony than they do on the life of a human child.

You are getting carried away there. Caring about animal welfare doesn't stop people from caring about human life. They aren't mutually exclusive things. If the traveller family are hard set to look after themselves, how can they look after a pony too? That means even less time and resources to look after their children.

Wanderer78 · 22-02-2019 08:47AM

BattleCorp wrote:

Poor people can be poor because of their actions (lazy, poor employment skills etc.). But they can also be poor due to factors outside of their control such as no jobs/recession/no transport for work etc.

Fcuking hell, ignorance is bliss!

BattleCorp · 22-02-2019 09:00AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Fcuking hell, ignorance is bliss!

I don't see my comment as being made through ignorance.

There are many factors why a person can be poor.

If they choose not to work, choose not to gain skills that would make them employable, then that could be a factor in making them poor. Those instances would be due to personal decisions.

But I did not say that's the only reason why people can be poor. Mostly it's because of environmental factors. The recession made lots of people poor. Being from certain areas with no employment locally, no transport to other areas where there is employment etc. can also make people poor through no fault of their own.

Where's the ignorance in that statement?

Roger Hassenforder · 22-02-2019 09:04AM

corks finest wrote: »

You may laugh,be amazed ,or call me a liar,at Scoil an spioraid naoimh bishoptown, when my son attended, school provided( 3 years) 2 taxis to and from school to campsite off the straight road cork,this changed to a wait for it. LIMO ,excuse that it was cheaper as there were another few traveller kids needed to attend,( at the time I was traveling 13 miles each way,,I was bloody incensed- I questioned the vice head,now principal,( Brian Cuthbert- ex Cork football coach)and was told no comment,it was aired on Red FM who also couldn't get a comment from the school,I went with a video cam stood opposite the entrance to the site, captured every vehicle leaving and entering ,back to the school - still no joy,my point was I was driving a 11 ye old banger yet still made it to school,yet all the travellers vehicles were much newer than mine and they couldn't be bothered to bring their kids on the 10 m drive to school,,,,crazy stuff,this has now stopped AFAIK,100 percent true,pm me anyone who doesent believe me,,,,

Same crowd who were a bit "problematic" at the 4* Kingsley , and thrown out, after being given temporary accommodation when their caravans were damaged in storm Ophelia?
Later pitch up in City Hall decrying their treatment :

https://www.96fm.ie/news/11-traveller-families-stage-sit-in-at-cork-city-ha/

Wanderer78 · 22-02-2019 09:04AM

BattleCorp wrote:

If they choose not to work, choose not to gain skills that would make them employable, then that could be a factor in making them poor. Those instances would be due to personal decisions.

You should probably do some more research into the causes of long term unemployment, and maybe change your resources of information, you ll find that the use of terms such as 'laziness' is just 'lazy research'.

BattleCorp · 22-02-2019 09:17AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You should probably do some more research into the causes of long term unemployment, and maybe change your resources of information, you ll find that the use of terms such as 'laziness' is just 'lazy research'.

And you should read the second part of my last post where I said that laziness isn't the only cause of long term unemployment. It's not even a major part of it.

I've said that unemployment is mostly caused by factors that people can't control such as no jobs, no transport etc.

You don't believe that there are lazy people out there? People too lazy to work?

LollipopJimmy · 22-02-2019 09:18AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So... what you're implying here, and apparently have said or implied at least twice - is that we should take the word of some stranger on the internet, and his stated experience of travellers, and - what? Apply it to travellers generally?

I'm sure it's obvious to most people that this logic falls at a number of hurdles.

What I'm saying is I've had one application from a traveller in years of recruitment, various roles btw.

You had stated that most/all employers or potential employers on this thread would not hire a traveller, I shared my experience which said otherwise.

Deebles McBeebles · 22-02-2019 09:31AM

BBFAN wrote: »

Can't even read that crap.

Odelay wrote: »

I could read it with ease. Why can’t you read it?

Doesn't fit the agenda, that's why.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Don't be asking me such easy questions.

1) Provide halting sites which are capable of accommodating families -we have vast amounts of academic research publications describing how well children do, when surrounded by their families.

2) Fund homework clubs and other extra-mural student supports for travellers and other non-traditional CAO applicants.

None of this should cost more than about 30-45 million, it would make a phenomenal difference to our society, and yet most of our politicians show zero interest.

Not bothered explaining why you should be ashamed of yourself for selling a pony to travellers because Battlecorp has already said it more succinctly than I could at this hour.

As for the above, 1) They are already provided with halting sites and those that they don't ruin and rob the copper from are very capable of housing multiple families. If they could stop feuding for a while that is.
2) Exactly when do we stop funding everything and ask them to do something for themselves? Like make sure their kids go to school instead of robbing shops. This hand holding helps no one. We've tried it, doesn't work.

Wanderer78 · 22-02-2019 10:04AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

And you should read the second part of my last post where I said that laziness isn't the only cause of long term unemployment. It's not even a major part of it.

I've said that unemployment is mostly caused by factors that people can't control such as no jobs, no transport etc.

You don't believe that there are lazy people out there? People too lazy to work?

you really should look into this lazy thing, you may realise the laziness is actually on your side of things, in the form of 'lazy research'

Roger Hassenforder · 22-02-2019 10:15AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you really should look into this lazy thing, you may realise the laziness is actually on your side of things, in the form of 'lazy research'

"So you're saying" all the unemployed are actually engaged with social services and actively looking for employment?

Or, as he said there are several reasons for unemployment, one of which is laziness...

Lazy signalling there yourself boss...

Ush1 · 22-02-2019 10:17AM

No it totally makes sense, lazy people are an urban myth like the bogeyman. Couldn't possibly be real.

Wanderer78 · 22-02-2019 10:20AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

"So you're saying" all the unemployed are actually engaged with social services and actively looking for employment?

Or, as he said there are several reasons for unemployment, one of which is laziness...

Lazy signalling there yourself boss...

theres been plenty of research into the root causes of unemployment, labeling the behavior of these individuals as 'laziness' is just 'lazy research', and ultimately, 'ignorance'

Roger Hassenforder · 22-02-2019 10:31AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

This is just one of these things that people may not like but it's these things the government has to try and get this minority group to attend school. I'm speaking about the taxi thing not a limo.
It's similar to homework groups that are ran by community groups, uniform allowances, lunches/breakfasts in deis schools, books, etc.
I sort of get why the principal couldn't comment on another families circumstances.

Its about a 2.5km cycle to the school, a lot of it on off road cycle paths though.

But the Amish have been sneaking into their site and dumping stuff over the fence into a pond

https://imgur.com/a/lSeR9LA

Roger Hassenforder · 22-02-2019 10:32AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

theres been plenty of research into the root causes of unemployment, labeling the behavior of these individuals as 'laziness' is just 'lazy research', and ultimately, 'ignorance'

Cool your jets.
He said one of the reasons....

Bredabe · 22-02-2019 10:49AM

BBFAN wrote: »

Can't even read that crap.

My dyslexic colleague said it took her just five minutes, agreed the font makes it look hard to read, but will overcomes that as proven by the statement made by colleague.

punisher5112 · 22-02-2019 11:58AM

Bredabe wrote: »

My dyslexic colleague said it took her just five minutes, agreed the font makes it look hard to read, but will overcomes that as proven by the statement made by colleague.

What the poster meant is there are no spaces and it's extremely difficult to read.

Bredabe · 22-02-2019 12:27PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

What the poster meant is there are no spaces and it's extremely difficult to read.

I get that, but I question the motivations, if someone with a reading disorder could read it slightly slower that people without did. Therefore it seems there is a lack of will involved.
Which is being used to belittle the writer.

Patrick2010 · 22-02-2019 12:42PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

What the poster meant is there are no spaces and it's extremely difficult to read.

Couldn’t read it but knew(decided) it was crap

normanoffside · 22-02-2019 09:12PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm on my phone. It's a nightmare trying to multi quote using the mobile app. I have read all the replies, will reply when I'm back at my desk. Chill, petal.

Quazzie wrote: »

You still not back at your desk?

Or are you ready to admit you're just trolling?

Still not at the desk by the looks of it. I look forward to Tyrant getting back to his/her keyboard.

Don't forget about the questions asked of your UCD study 3 days ago btw....

22-02-2019 09:15PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Still not at the desk by the looks of it. I look forward to Tyrant getting back to his/her keyboard.

Don't forget about the questions asked of your UCD study 3 days ago btw....

I did reply after posting that.

I'll reply again when I get the chance; people often want to hear detailed responses with scholarly links. Other times, it almost seems to me that some people are only too delighted to get a response, so that they can vent all their weird anger.

normanoffside · 22-02-2019 09:24PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I did reply after posting that.

I'll reply again when I get the chance; people often want to hear detailed responses with scholarly links. Other times, it almost seems to me that some people are only too delighted to get a response, so that they can vent all their weird anger.

You only replied to the things you wanted and then ignored the responses.

You were demanding 'evidence' for peoples views a few nights ago and posted your own 'evidence' which people ripped up. You ignored follow up questions.

Anyway forget it, it's obvious you are just trolling anyway.

22-02-2019 09:32PM

normanoffside wrote: »

You only replied to the things you wanted and then ignored the responses.

You were demanding 'evidence' for peoples views a few nights ago and posted your own 'evidence' which people ripped up. You ignored follow up questions.

Anyway forget it, it's obvious you are just trolling anyway.

Lad, it's Friday night; sorry if I'm not diligently trawling through boards to make sure I reply to everyone.

Chill out. The fact that I'm barely reading the thread, and that you are asking for a reply, suggests to me that I'm probably not the one seeking attention here.

Paddy Cow · 22-02-2019 10:07PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Wrong question, with respect. Your question is a bit like asking 'are poor people poor because of circumstances, or because they are stupid?'. Neither answer is correct. A better question might be, 'are traveller children achieving optimal educational and life-expectation outcomes in their current living conditions?'. The answer to that is an unambiguous No, and it's all to do with upbringing.

.

Absolutely. If you are brought up to believe that working 40 hours a week is a mugs game and there is an easier option of filling out a few forms and getting the weak settled folk to subsidise your existence based on your "culture", why would the kids think any differently?

Adult travellers are the problem. They take the young ones out of school between the ages of 12-15 because they don't want them mixing with settled kids. God forbid a traveller girl would get into a relationship with a settled male and want a life for herself outside the confines of being a baby factory. God forbid that traveller kids would realise that education means that you can actually have a career that gives you fulfilment. Not all jobs are minimum wage but you have to get educated to get them. My brother is a programmer and he is the stereotypical nerd. He LOVES his job and bores the rest of us to tears with his "exciting" stories.

They could become doctors, firefighters, paramedics etc if only they stayed in school. They are not pushed out of school by settled people. The government spends loads of money trying to keep them there but the adults won't have it. They want to keep them isolated and uneducated because an uneducated teen is far more compliant than a mid 20's adult with a university education and options.

You are living in la la land. 60 years ago many people have stories about letting Travellers stay on their land and the Travellers did farm work etc. Those days of Travellers being Travellers and self sufficient are long gone. Nowadays most "Travellers" live in houses provided by the state taxpayer and are subsidised by social welfare/medical cards, also provided by the state taxpayer.

Your comparison with the poor also doesn't hold weight. As has been quoted many times on this thread, Margaret Cash herself said "I'm not poor, I'm homeless. I'm on benefits just like everyone else". They have money, they just spend it stupidly on gaudy furniture and expensive communion outfits. God forbid they'd spend it on their kids education or giving them a healthy diet.

Welfare is their "income" to spend how they see fit but don't be saying that they are discriminated against. They are adults who have the same choices as everyone else. They make poor choices and foist those same choices on their children by depriving them of an education and a fair shot at life. The cycle rinses and repeats.

I have a serious question for you. What do you think is the future for Margaret's daughter? Do you think she will finish secondary school and go onto university or will she be taken out of school before finishing the Junior Cert and married off to someone? If she is married off, is that because of settled discrimination? That child is only 9 years old. Right now she is an innocent child with the world at her feet but what future should she have and who gets to decide it? Should she be married off in her teens or should she get educated and decide for herself in her 20's?

Please answer those questions. You have very strong views on how Travellers have it so hard but show little to no insight into how Travellers themselves can overcome these issues. Tell us what we can/should do to change the trajectory of Margaret's daughter's life, or do you think we should just leave her be and let Traveller culture takes it's course? I honestly want to know what you think. Should that 9 year old finish education or become a product of Traveller upbringing?

freshpopcorn · 22-02-2019 10:39PM

I think I might have a bit of Gypsy blood because I can see into the future and predict who's going to like certain posts!

normanoffside · 22-02-2019 10:46PM

I have lots of respect for many travellers.
Andy Lee is the perfect example. He got out of the traveller 'trap'; educated himself, dedicated himself to his sport, studied, read, 'actually' travelled (to other parts of the world) and ended up marrying outside the wider travelling family (to a settled girl as Bernard Sweeney would say).
It's clear as day to me that when travellers look outside their own culture they are just as able as anyone else to do well in the world.

While Andy can see that he and other travellers were prejudiced against (when he was a child) instead of moaning about it, he decided to take the other road and not conform to traveller stereotypes. He has triumphed and is now widely revered. No one would say a bad word about him Andy is now almost universally praised and this shows there is no Instinctive racism to travellers amongst Irish people IMO (Just disgust at their often bad behaviour).

Other travellers have been unfortunately less lucky than Andy. Look at Francie Barrett. He carried the flag for Ireland at the 1996 Olympics and after turning pro was stabbed when he refused to engage in a bare knuckle match with a rival traveller family who was calling him out. If he had boxed him he'd have lost his pro license. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/olympic-boxer-and-father-left-cut-and-bleeding-after-car-park-stabbing-26121142.html

Then there's John Joe Nevin who won Olympic Silver. Turned pro, won several fights before getting his legs broke in a 'Feud' with a rival traveller gang. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/john-joe-nevin-told-both-his-legs-were-broken-in-attack-1.1754734
His pro career has been effectively ruined since.

To me it seems it's very difficult to get out of the traveller trap as anyone doing so is seen as getting 'too big for their boots' and dragged right back down again. Anybody who breaks the norm has my utmost respect.

I honestly don't have any prejudice against individual travellers, just the traveller culture which is bringing them all down.

I wish we had less John Connors and Maggie cashes and more Andy Lees.

freshpopcorn · 22-02-2019 10:54PM

normanoffside wrote: »

I honestly don't have any prejudice against individual travellers, just the traveller culture which is bringing them all down.

I wish we had less John Connors and Maggie cashes and more Andy Lees.

I think everybody would like to see more Andy Lee's or just people doing their best to work raise their kids and get an some type of an education.
Nobody is saying they've to go off and become rocket scientists but just do their bit and it will mainly benefit themselves.

NIMAN · 22-02-2019 11:16PM

Is there pressure within traveller families to keep their kids away from education?

This is one of the major things which could change their lot in life. Surely some parents out there really want their kids to get an education and better themselves? There must be some.

normanoffside · 22-02-2019 11:43PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Is there pressure within traveller families to keep their kids away from education?

This is one of the major things which could change their lot in life. Surely some parents out there really want their kids to get an education and better themselves? There must be some.

There absolutely is. When I was in primary school (in the 80’s) I had a few travelller boys in my class. Some of them were quite bright and well liked but they were often absent.
One particular lad passed the 11+ and got a place in the grammar school (Northern Ireland) but he rejected the the place and went to the local intermediate school. He was one of the brightest kids in the class but his family didn’t want him mixing with people who wanted to go to university.

I met him about 5 years later, he was having his wedding party at the local hotel on his 16th birthday.

freshpopcorn · 22-02-2019 11:48PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Is there pressure within traveller families to keep their kids away from education?

This is one of the major things which could change their lot in life. Surely some parents out there really want their kids to get an education and better themselves? There must be some.

Just based on what I know or people I know.
Travellers seem to be attending primary education a lot more. This may because of extra support financially and also the extra resources.
These are also in place in secondary school but for some reason there is a disconnect.
This have improved tough.
But it seems to be because in there culture/group they marry younger/start families and sometimes they traveller around. I have also heard travelers say they don't feel comfortable mixing there settled teenage children around homosexuality, contraception, drugs,etc because these are against there religious beliefs.

corks finest · 23-02-2019 12:21AM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Wrong question, with respect. Your question is a bit like asking 'are poor people poor because of circumstances, or because they are stupid?'. Neither answer is correct. A better question might be, 'are traveller children achieving optimal educational and life-expectation outcomes in their current living conditions?'. The answer to that is an unambiguous No, and it's all to do with upbringing.

.

Absolutely. If you are brought up to believe that working 40 hours a week is a mugs game and there is an easier option of filling out a few forms and getting the weak settled folk to subsidise your existence based on your "culture", why would the kids think any differently?

Adult travellers are the problem. They take the young ones out of school between the ages of 12-15 because they don't want them mixing with settled kids. God forbid a traveller girl would get into a relationship with a settled male and want a life for herself outside the confines of being a baby factory. God forbid that traveller kids would realise that education means that you can actually have a career that gives you fulfilment. Not all jobs are minimum wage but you have to get educated to get them. My brother is a programmer and he is the stereotypical nerd. He LOVES his job and bores the rest of us to tears with his "exciting" stories.

They could become doctors, firefighters, paramedics etc if only they stayed in school. They are not pushed out of school by settled people. The government spends loads of money trying to keep them there but the adults won't have it. They want to keep them isolated and uneducated because an uneducated teen is far more compliant than a mid 20's adult with a university education and options.

You are living in la la land. 60 years ago many people have stories about letting Travellers stay on their land and the Travellers did farm work etc. Those days of Travellers being Travellers and self sufficient are long gone. Nowadays most "Travellers" live in houses provided by the state taxpayer and are subsidised by social welfare/medical cards, also provided by the state taxpayer.

Your comparison with the poor also doesn't hold weight. As has been quoted many times on this thread, Margaret Cash herself said "I'm not poor, I'm homeless. I'm on benefits just like everyone else". They have money, they just spend it stupidly on gaudy furniture and expensive communion outfits. God forbid they'd spend it on their kids education or giving them a healthy diet.

Welfare is their "income" to spend how they see fit but don't be saying that they are discriminated against. They are adults who have the same choices as everyone else. They make poor choices and foist those same choices on their children by depriving them of an education and a fair shot at life. The cycle rinses and repeats.

I have a serious question for you. What do you think is the future for Margaret's daughter? Do you think she will finish secondary school and go onto university or will she be taken out of school before finishing the Junior Cert and married off to someone? If she is married off, is that because of settled discrimination? That child is only 9 years old. Right now she is an innocent child with the world at her feet but what future should she have and who gets to decide it? Should she be married off in her teens or should she get educated and decide for herself in her 20's?

Please answer those questions. You have very strong views on how Travellers have it so hard but show little to no insight into how Travellers themselves can overcome these issues. Tell us what we can/should do to change the trajectory of Margaret's daughter's life, or do you think we should just leave her be and let Traveller culture takes it's course? I honestly want to know what you think. Should that 9 year old finish education or become a product of Traveller upbringing?

Some v good points there boy

Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

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