Incident at Roscommon hotel (asylum seekers)
Comments
-
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
This idea has been fostered, this Star Trek type thinking, as if we have leap-frogged political evolution, as if we have sorted out the MAHOOSIVE differences between cultures and civilisational ethos - which we simply have not.Worst of all this idea is purely an economic one - there is nothing philosphical, idealist, or progressive about it at all - it is a fake ideal whereby elites make endless money and gain power - cheap labour, flattened barriers, annihilation of workers rights, neo-feudalism, endless hedonic consumption and consumers, etc.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
To be fair there is a certain (and large) segment of the population, especially among young people, who seem to have very idealistic ideas about ''One World'', and they are genuinely feeling these open borders sentiments, and also genuinely feel that old fogeys resisting the New One World are racist and backwards.
I know this because a couple of my own young adult sprogs have told me so to my face
I am not sure exactly how this idealised version of what the planet is came to be implanted in their heads - but then there is so much ridiculous propgandising that has gone on in the past couple of decades, and if pressed I would have to inadequately explain it by blaming the cynical promotion of globalism.
This idea has been fostered, this Star Trek type thinking, as if we have leap-frogged political evolution, as if we have sorted out the MAHOOSIVE differences between cultures and civilisational ethos - which we simply have not.
Worst of all this idea is purely an economic one - there is nothing philosphical, idealist, or progressive about it at all - it is a fake ideal whereby elites make endless money and gain power - cheap labour, flattened barriers, annihilation of workers rights, neo-feudalism, endless hedonic consumption and consumers, etc.
This is a great post Zorya.
My ideal world would be one without borders and there is a possibility of this happening in maybe a couple of hundred of years if humans are still on the planet. The inequality in this world is appalling, but the way the EU/Merkel is forcing non-EU migration onto the countries of Europe is also appalling. It is a concept contrived by liberal elites who believe that European countries are too homogeneous (too white), but it also supported by rich industrialists who want cheap labour.
World open borders look perfect on Star Trek and other SciFi programs. To make it achievable is to solve the problems first in the countries where migration is originating. Importing them en masse into Europe with their problems and religious/cultural differences is a disaster; it will never work. Have a level playing field by bringing the migration countries up to par with other developed countries and then we could talk about open borders. That's why it will take a couple of hundred years to get to this stage.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
I am constantly hearing Wibbs, from Sinn Fein representatives on television and especially RTE radio programs advocating for open borders ..... and I'm talking about complete open borders along the lines of their passed Ard Feis motion i.e. Sinn Fein will work for the achievement of the optimal position of no restriction on immigration to Ireland and deplores all attempts to limit the numbers of political and economic refugees into the country. RTE never challenges them on this stance, which should not shock anyone.I haven't a scooby.
I would suggest though if you are looking for a more accurate number, look at the population make up of the countries where the refugees are coming from.
I would imagine some constantly war ravaged country in Africa or the Middle East would have a different make up to the richest country on the planet.
Here's another breakdown of the stats from 2015Most (72%) are male, and more than half (54%) are ages 18 to 34; men in that age bracket account for fully 43% of asylum applicants.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
Well I'd put Sinn Fein firmly in the "nutters" section on this matter.
Indeed. War ravaged countries tend to have lower numbers of such men because they're the ones usually doing the fighting and dying, while the women, kids and elderly try to avoid all that and get away. And yet the migrant population into the EU has reversed this trend in a big way.
Here's another breakdown of the stats from 2015
More than half, which is considerably more of a percentage than in an average country's demographics.
More than half of the population of the refugee camp in Za'tari are children. Obviously there are far more able bodied men making the long journey to Europe. The camps in the Middle East are bursting at the seams however so if you're physically able to go somewhere better you will.
http://www.reach-initiative.org/al-zaatari-camp-population-profile-and-health-assessment-jordan0 -
Indeed. War ravaged countries tend to have lower numbers of such men because they're the ones usually doing the fighting and dying, while the women, kids and elderly try to avoid all that and get away.
I imagine that would be roughly accurate, but there would far more variables than that you would have to consider.Here's another breakdown of the stats from 2015
More than half, which is considerably more of a percentage than in an average country's demographics.
The figures you provided that I pointed out to you are accurate up until last week, why are you going back to 2015?0 -
Advertisement
-
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
More than half of the population of the refugee camp in Za'tari are children. Obviously there are far more able bodied men making the long journey to Europe. The camps in the Middle East are bursting at the seams however so if you're physically able to go somewhere better you will.
http://www.reach-initiative.org/al-zaatari-camp-population-profile-and-health-assessment-jordanRejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
T. Have a level playing field by bringing the migration countries up to par with other developed countries and then we could talk about open borders. That's why it will take a couple of hundred years to get to this stage.
This is what I think is the most rational way. Other methods entail too much suffering and risk. A flattened Europe - and Europe faces many other problems apart from mass migration - will never be able to help anyone.
I'm completely aware of the whole ''blow back'' issues and the war mongering for resources from some European powers plus America that has caused so much trouble in the Middle East, Africa, etc. It has left the field open for everything from fundamentalists to famine. It is disgusting. There is so much to be depressed about.
I just don't see how antagonistic multiculturalism that pretends all cultures are equal or the super saturation of struggling welfare states is going to be anything more than a band aid on ginormous problems and, worse still, a crippling of Europes ability to act as a helper in the future. Also rates of violence will undoubtedly open Europe up for the rise of strong man authoritarian politicians, we already see this - it is all completely illogical.
The west should get the feck out of these places, except for when we go with vast amounts of genuine investment and no-strings attached aid...anyways....it's too much to say.0 -
Actually camps like that show much more normal demographics and ones you'd expect to see with actual refugees. More kids, young families, a near 50/50 split of women and men, with fewer than average of the elderly because of infirmity and difficulty with travel. Though one would wonder given male/female ratios would be roughly 50/50 where all the 18-15 women are.
Are you suggesting they aren't refugees?
As far as I'm aware children are children in these camps whether they be male or female.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
I imagine that would be roughly accurate, but there would far more variables than that you would have to consider.The figures you provided that I pointed out to you are accurate up until last week, why are you going back to 2015?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
Are you suggesting they aren't refugees?As far as I'm aware children are children in these camps whether they be male or female.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
Advertisement
-
Where in god's name did I say they aren't? You really want to read what you want to read don't you?
I didn't suggest otherwise? Again with the reading into things. Clearly you didn't read where I wrote Actually camps like that show much more normal demographics and ones you'd expect to see with actual refugees. I'm saying they're actual refugees. And you extrapolate that out to I'm suggesting they're not? The hell?
What's the difference between an "actual refugee" and a refugee?0 -
Is this what we're reduced to?
Straight after another anti-Irish, racist attack, the same half-dozen heads are trying to discuss anything but the actual attempted murder at the site. The same quotes, the same fearmongering, nothing new being brought to the table.
I can't imagine what it must be like to live in a constant state of fear, angry with the world and the life that they lead, consuming hours of conspiracy theory videos telling them there's a (((plan))) to destroy Ireland.
It's still baffling why some websites continue to encourage this behaviour. Thankfully their numbers are dwindling, not only in Ireland, but also across Europe. The downside is that they're becoming more desperate. It's only a matter of time before one snaps and they start targeting occupied refugee centres.0 -
Which "variables"? Significantly more men fight and die and are injured in war zones. Being a woman, or a kid or elderly are the most likely demographics to survive. They've also been traditionally the most likely demographics to be refugees.
The percentages are pretty consistent over the last decade or so of the migrant crisis. That is; a much larger percentage of men overall are migrating and a significantly larger percentage of men than average background demographics of men between 18-35 are migrating and they're the largest percentage of the men migrating. Which ever way we cut up the pie these are facts.
Nobody is arguing that the majority who are making it to Europe aren't men.
But I thought the answer would be pretty obvious.
I mean they are not hopping on Aerlingus and drinking themselves asleep like we immigrate.
The journey from the camp to Europe is pretty arduous with a relatively high chance of death if you are an enabled bodied male, that significantly increases if you are a child, female or older. Add in the fact that children and women are brutally sexually assaulted on their journey, it starts to become quite apparent why a certain demo-graph might risk it over another.
Imagine a married couple in a camp with 2 kids, 4 years there with nothing but disease, overcrowding and no hope.
They decide one of them should make the journey.
Does the man go grand, you do it, take the kids and send money when you get to that hotel in Roscommon.
No, no they don't.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
What's the difference between an "actual refugee" and a refugee?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
Where in god's name did I say they aren't? You really want to read what you want to read don't you?
I didn't suggest otherwise? Again with the reading into things. Clearly you didn't read where I wrote Actually camps like that show much more normal demographics and ones you'd expect to see with actual refugees. I'm saying they're actual refugees. And you extrapolate that out to I'm suggesting they're not? The hell?
Of course you didn't Wibbs.
The overwhelming majority of readers understood your post.
But when some are losing an argument, they use obfuscation and other methods to derail the thread. This is what he is doing with his follow-up comment.
It is so disappointing that a rational discussion cannot be had on non-EU economic migration and the asylum process without the "racist" name-calling, insults, and attempts to derail the topic.
Best advice I can give to everyone is to ignore posters who do this.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
Nobody is arguing that the majority who are making it to Europe aren't men.I mean they are not hopping on Aerlingus and drinking themselves asleep like we immigrate.Imagine a married couple in a camp with 2 kids, 4 years there with nothing but disease, overcrowding and no hope.
They decide one of them should make the journey.
Does the man go grand, you do it, take the kids and send money when you get to that hotel in Roscommon.
No, no they don't.
"Male and female adults between 18 and 30 years of age constitute the largest demographic group in absolute terms with a recorded figure of 17,860 individuals at the time of the assessment."
It seems contrary to your explanation the married and attached men are sticking with their families in said camps, which would suggest a goodly chunk of those men coming into Europe are not married men with families.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
Damn.
Why isn't Dav not my ignore list?
Done.
Thankfully despite the hysteria from some, we have an awakening in countries across Europe like Finland, Sweden, Spain, Germany, Italy, and the UK to challenge the narrative that all non-EU migrants and asylum seekers should be accepted without debate or questioning.
To quote the Finnish Prime Minister who made this comment a few weeks:It’s unbearable that some who have sought asylum from us, and even received an asylum, have brought evil to us and created insecurity.......
We need an open and factual discussion and decisions that are weighted thoroughly.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
Is this what we're reduced to?
Straight after another anti-Irish, racist attack, the same half-dozen heads are trying to discuss anything but the actual attempted murder at the site.The same quotes, the same fearmongering, nothing new being brought to the table.
I can't imagine what it must be like to live in a constant state of fear, angry with the world and the life that they lead, consuming hours of conspiracy theory videos telling them there's a (((plan))) to destroy Ireland.It's still baffling why some websites continue to encourage this behaviour.Thankfully their numbers are dwindling, not only in Ireland, but also across Europe.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
And history shows time and time again it's one helluva hurdle to leap.
Well I'd be wary of using "elites" as a title, more like modern consumerist capitalism as a system, where some are set to gain from it. Like I said earlier Germany was the nation with the biggest hard on for this migrant welcome from the top down. Ageing population looking to keep their industries going. They did this before when they imported Turkish workers in the middle of the German economic miracle when they were running out of local workers after the Iron curtain tightened its grip. Germany and Turkey have quite a long history together, so there was that and many Turks, again majority male(as is historically the case with economic migration, rather than refugee migration, just like today) made their way to Germany. The gender ratios only started to normalise after Germany allowed families to reunite and more women and kids came along. Turks had feck all citizenship rights for most of this period, only relatively recently have such rights come on stream. After the Berlin Wall fell their plight got more shaky with floods of formally East German workers looking for work and racial strife kicking off. But this time it'll be different...
Sorry I missed this post, somehow i find that happens a lot, like they show up later or something.
Yes, I am wary of using the word 'elites' too as it implies a raving looney reading from the conspiracy playbook. But then again given the massive transfer of wealth planet wide up to an insanely small number of individuals, its kind of hard not to have some kind of sci fi dystopian narrative enter ones head. But yeah, we all are part of the madness.
A long loonnng time ago I lived in Germany for 3 or 4 years and as it happened I worked mostly with Turkish gastarbeiter. Not because I had to, although in the beginning my language skills left me open only for the least skilled work, and that was usually with the Turks. But after that I chose to remain working with the underclass - and that is very much what they were, back then at least - because of a sort of radical political and emotional affiliation I felt for the underdog. The treatment of the Turks was horrible, stuff worthy of novels and dark films, and I saw it first hand and regularly as part of the work teams. Forexample, old worn-out Turkish women literally down on their knees begging to be allowed take their annual holiday at the time that had been arranged, while a boss stood mercilessly over them and laughed. Times without number people would approach me and ask what was a ''girl like me'' doing working on these teams. I felt like a hardened anarcho-communist at the end of it all but it was good to see the other side of life. In spite of any attempted accusations on here, I am not racist. I am just trying to be logical.0 -
Finally.
Nice image of our own you spin there, but forget the usually migrating legally with marketable skills part.
Well have an oul read of the UNICEF link of VeryTerry above. Look at the demographics. A near 50/50 split of men and women, including in the 18-35 range.
"Male and female adults between 18 and 30 years of age constitute the largest demographic group in absolute terms with a recorded figure of 17,860 individuals at the time of the assessment."
It seems contrary to your explanation the married and attached men are sticking with their families in said camps, which would suggest a goodly chunk of those men coming into Europe are not married men with families.
So the vast majority of the makeup of that refugee camp is Women and Children. Roughly 75%.
That is pretty consistent with the figures that don't make the journey, correct?
What's the problem?0 -
Advertisement
-
"Anti-Irish"?? BTW as far as I'm aware the hotel was vacant at the time of this attack. Which BTW Part II I don't condone in any way, even though I can understand why it's happening and why you will have a minority who go full retard and do something like this.
https://www.thejournal.ie/rooskey-fire-4489478-Feb2019/Speaking to Shannonside, Superintendent Kevin English said three members of staff were in the building at the time.
“Their cars would have been visible from the side of the hotel,” he said.
In that context, the individuals who attempted to burn the hotel were not deterred by their presence.
The far-right wave in Europe peaked around 3 years ago, it's already receding and never took hold in Ireland, and never will.
What's going on here Wibbs? You've been regurgitating the same gibberish over and over again for years. You could could have a week left to live, you may have 10 years left to live. This is no way to see out the remaining years of your life. Surely you can see that. You can't live in a constant state of fear right up until the end. There is still time to change.0 -
Yikes, has someone with a Messiah complex entered the thread? :eek:0
-
https://www.thejournal.ie/rooskey-fire-4489478-Feb2019/
The far-right wave in Europe peaked around 3 years ago, it's already receding and never took hold in Ireland, and never will.
What's going on here Wibbs? You've been regurgitating the same gibberish over and over again for years. You could could have a week left to live, you may have 10 years left to live. This is no way to see out the remaining years of your life. Surely you can see that. You can't live in a constant state of fear right up until the end. There is still time to change.
Dumbest thing I've read on this website.
Anyway, this stuff isn't a surprise.
If you're the Department of Justice and you make plans to fill a small rural area with a group of economic migrants, without telling the people of the town, completely upsetting the balance of the town population wise and just dealing with the hotel owner in question, because some gombeen who wants the money...
You think the locals are happy with that? What do you think is going to happen?
I think the lad that burned down the place is nuts, but what the Department of Justice has done is morally wrong.
Unless, these economic migrants go to Dalkey? Or Foxrock? Let's bring some diversity there, since they love it so much.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
So the vast majority of the makeup of that refugee camp is Women and Children. Roughly 75%.
That is pretty consistent with the figures that don't make the journey, correct?
What's the problem?The far-right wave in Europe peaked around 3 years ago, it's already receding and never took hold in Ireland, and never will.
Funny how so many seem to disagree with you regarding the far right. To quote from the last Huff Post link: Elections across Europe this year have confirmed the surging popularity of far-right leaders.
While their liberal and conservative counterparts are in free fall, radical right parties are successfully exploiting public anxiety over migration, national identity and the failures of the establishment. After decades on the fringes, they’re forming governments, by themselves or in coalition.
Maybe the loudhailers of the "left" and the right on should ask the question why? If their politic is the correct one and so self evidently so, why the shift to the right not seen in decades?What's going on here Wibbs? You've been regurgitating the same gibberish over and over again for years. You could could have a week left to live, you may have 10 years left to live. This is no way to see out the remaining years of your life. Surely you can see that. You can't live in a constant state of fear right up until the end. There is still time to change.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
You're not great at these figures yourself Boggles. a couple will have a few kids, the UNICEF link shows a figure of 3.2 kids per household, which means of course kids and women will outnumber men. My point was and well you (should) know it, is that the split between adult men and adult women is roughly equal in those camps. If according to your family men forging the path for their families narrative was in play, one would expect to see that the percentage of men would be noticeably lower and the camps would be a majority of women, kids and the old. But they're not.
What's roughly?
Sorry to ask but you have claimed 40 was nearly 80. :pac:
Also I would suggest the sample size and time frame is far too small to prove anything. Again a multitude of factors would have to be considered.
Basically Think bigger.
But even going by that camp the overall majority are women and children which is completely consistent to what doesn't make the journey.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
Fr. Hiroshima Twinkie wrote: »Heaven forfend people just condemn arson without trying to excuse or justify the scumbags who engaged in it just because they share the same opinion on immigrants...The far-right is on the rise across Europe, that's true, but history has shown us that appeasement doesn't work. Where the far-right grows we must do the only thing that has been tried and proven to work in the past - fight it. Stamp it out like the virulent weed it is. Reason and evidence means nothing to these people, as we see with the rebirth of their old favourite 'Lügenpresse' under the new name 'fake news'.Lest we forget that it was blaming one group in their society for all their ills that led to the deaths of millions in a certain European country in the 1940s.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
What's this a about an anti Irish attack? Didn't hear anything about it.0
-
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59041
What's roughly?
Sorry to ask but you have claimed 40 was nearly 80. :pac:Also I would suggest the sample size and time frame is far too small to prove anything. Again a multitude of factors would have to be considered.
Basically Think bigger.But even going by that camp the overall majority are women and children which is completely consistent to what doesn't make the journey.
OK imagine ten couples in an apartment block. Each couple has three kids. That gives us thirty kids and ten women and ten men. Or an overall majority of forty women and children to only ten men, but the gender ratio stays the same among the men and women.
Now if some of the men decide to leave to find work in the next town over, say eight of them, then you have forty women and children to only two men and the gender ratio is obviously skewed.
Yet in the camps the gender ratio is equal among adult men and women. So where are these men who've decided to forge ahead of their families?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
40-50% have been males between 18-35.
Ah Heyor, we have all ready nailed down that figure thanks to your link and your stats.
It's just below 40%.Yet in the camps the gender ratio is equal among adult men and women. So where are these men who've decided to forge ahead of their families?
I asked you a very specific question referencing a very specific camp.
The camp referenced in the data you used.
What was the rough split between men and women of the age 18-30?
I wasn't arguing with you, I was just asking a simple question.
If you don't know, it's okay to say that.0 -
Advertisement
-
Funny how so many seem to disagree with you regarding the far right. To quote from the last Huff Post link: Elections across Europe this year have confirmed the surging popularity of far-right leaders.
I have absolutely no doubt you could continue to pull articles from the internet all day to back up your claims, just as easy as someone could pull the same amount of articles refuting your claims.
While the far-right is currently stagnating and in decline across Europe, far-right attacks are on the rise. Attacks carried out by individuals who bought into the fearmongering 4 or 5 years ago and who are now becoming more desperate as reality starts to set in. Individuals such as the ones burning down buildings in the countryside and the reason why this thread was created.
The next time someone tries to fire bomb a refugee centre with people inside, will you be here again trying to shoehorn your politics on to the front page of after hours?
You're never too old to change.0