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Kerry clubs grading system

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    #2
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    His basic logic is correct- if you have more senior clubs then your intermediate standard will be weaker- it’s not exactly rocket science.

    However his lack of understanding/analysis of why this system has always been used in a rural county like Kerry is extremely evident.

    Divisional sides are a necessity or else top quality footballers would have spent their whole life not getting a look in due to geography.
    Example- Donnacha Walsh’s club have always been Junior B and the exposure he got playing for Mid Kerry helped make him the player that he is.

    On top of this-we had a few more senior clubs up until recently but there were a few serious hammerings being handed out.

    A third point would be that they wanted to shorten the senior championship due to concerns about player welfare & burn out.

    But simply- Kerry have always had this system (other counties have replicated it due to our success) and it predates these club championships by decades so to link them in a way that makes it sounds like some concerted attempt to hoodwink people is a bit disingenuous.

    It is McKenna though and if there isn’t a problem then by god he’ll engineer one


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    #3
    mystic86
    Registered Users Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭mystic86


    The divisional sides are in the county championship, rather than club championship. If a club wins the county championship they go on to represent Kerry in the all Ireland club's competition, if a divisional side wins then the winner of the senior club championship goes on to represent Kerry.

    I like having the divisional sides in the senior county championship, as it allows players from smaller parishes to play in big games and to make a name for themselves.

    Perhaps the club representing Kerry in the all Ireland intermediate club championship should be the winner of the intermediate club championship rather than the winner of the county intermediate, as this would address the issue of clubs being correctly allocated to their grade, as there are no divisional sides in the club championship taking up spaces in the senior, pushing teams down to intermediate.


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    #4
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,007 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    mystic86 wrote: »
    The divisional sides are in the county championship, rather than club championship. If a club wins the county championship they go on to represent Kerry in the all Ireland club's competition, if a divisional side wins then the winner of the senior club championship goes on to represent Kerry.

    I like having the divisional sides in the senior county championship, as it allows players from smaller parishes to play in big games and to make a name for themselves.

    Perhaps the club representing Kerry in the all Ireland intermediate club championship should be the winner of the intermediate club championship rather than the winner of the county intermediate, as this would address the issue of clubs being correctly allocated to their grade, as there are no divisional sides in the club championship taking up spaces in the senior, pushing teams down to intermediate.


    But there is no divisional teams at intermediate or junior, it's just clubs.

    What makes the junior and intermediate clubs so strong is that they might have a number of players playing senior county championship with their divisional team, and that experience is what makes the difference

    A junior club player in Kerry may be playing senior against the likes of the Crokes.

    A junior club player in Sligo is just playing junior.


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    #5
    mystic86
    Registered Users Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭mystic86


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    [/b]

    But there is no divisional teams at intermediate or junior, it's just clubs.

    What makes the junior and intermediate clubs so strong is that they might have a number of players playing senior county championship with their divisional team, and that experience is what makes the difference

    A junior club player in Kerry may be playing senior against the likes of the Crokes.

    A junior club player in Sligo is just playing junior.


    I know that, but the point being made above, and I can see where they are coming from, is that if the divisional teams were not in the senior county championship then the likes of Kilcummin would be in Senior instead, as there would need to be a certain minimum amount of teams competing at Senior. Hence why I said maybe the Intermediate club championship winner should represent Kerry instead of the Intermediate County Championship winner. But keep the practice at Senior County Championship the way it is, i.e. keep the Divisionals.


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    #6
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    mystic86 wrote: »
    I know that, but the point being made above, and I can see where they are coming from, is that if the divisional teams were not in the senior county championship then the likes of Kilcummin would be in Senior instead, as there would need to be a certain minimum amount of teams competing at Senior. Hence why I said maybe the Intermediate club championship winner should represent Kerry instead of the Intermediate County Championship winner. But keep the practice at Senior County Championship the way it is, i.e. keep the Divisionals.

    What are you talking about?
    There’s only an intermediate club championship- there is no other intermediate competition


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    #7
    mystic86
    Registered Users Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭mystic86


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    What are you talking about?
    There’s only an intermediate club championship- there is no other intermediate competition

    In that case my apologies, and so what is the OP and that person in the tweets above talking about?


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    #8
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I don't think anyone's criticising the use of divisional teams. It's the fact that Kerry have made their divisions so tight that the intermediate champion of Kerry is maybe the 9th best team in the county, whereas 9th position would be held by a mid ranking senior team in most other counties. This means the 9th best team in Kerry is playing the 13th/17th best team in other counties.

    We've had the opposite happen us in Meath, for a while we dominated the Leinster junior club football championship, winning 8 out of the 10 competitions before 2012 and losing the final of another. But then starting in 2012 we increased our intermediate and senior championship numbers to give clubs an ego boost and as logically follows our success rate has fallen off a cliff; one Meath team has reached the final since 2012. What's worse is the clubs recently voted to increase the number of teams in intermediate again which will weaken junior further.


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    #9
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    McKenna doesn't understand how the system works as he thinks Divisional sides keep clubs out of senior.

    Anyway. If other counties wish they can structure their competitions in ways which give them better chances of winning junior and intermediate club titles. The system in Kerry is designed to make each of the competitions of a high standard and broadly speaking is effective. The fact that it also leads to dominance of these All Ireland competitions is incidental.

    I would prefer - and imagine it's more likely - that we abandoned the All Ireland competitions rather than change our structure because the excellent one we have stops clubs from counties with worse structures from winning these competitions with their 15 year heritage.


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    #10
    Amprodude
    Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭Amprodude


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    [/b]

    But there is no divisional teams at intermediate or junior, it's just clubs.

    What makes the junior and intermediate clubs so strong is that they might have a number of players playing senior county championship with their divisional team, and that experience is what makes the difference

    A junior club player in Kerry may be playing senior against the likes of the Crokes.

    A junior club player in Sligo is just playing junior.

    Dromtarrife in Cork are a junior club playing in duhallow division playing in a junior grade which is in no great shapes until an All Ireland was won last year by Knocknagree. However, Dromtarrife were 1 point away in extra time beating the All Ireland champions Beaufort and should have beaten them having dominated the game for so long. Dromtarrife never played senior divisions so that argument doesnt stand up. If you are good enough and fit enough and coached well you will go a long way. That was a poor attempt by the Sligo team in an All Ireland Final.


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    #11
    Boom__Boom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    Antrim have 12 senior teams so St Endas would be ranked the 13th team in the county on the basis of winning their intermediate championship.

    Sligo have 10 senior teams and 10 intermediate teams, so Easkey winning the Junior would rank them as 21st team in the county.

    Kerry have 8 senior teams and 16 intermediate teams, so Kilcummin were the 9th ranked team in the county based on winning the intermediate and Beaufort winning the Junior Premier would rank them as 25th team in the county.


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    #12
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,007 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Amprodude wrote: »
    Dromtarrife in Cork are a junior club playing in duhallow division playing in a junior grade which is in no great shapes until an All Ireland was won last year by Knocknagree. However, Dromtarrife were 1 point away in extra time beating the All Ireland champions Beaufort and should have beaten them having dominated the game for so long. Dromtarrife never played senior divisions so that argument doesnt stand up. If you are good enough and fit enough and coached well you will go a long way. That was a poor attempt by the Sligo team in an All Ireland Final.

    So my argument does not stand based on some Cork team not beating Beaufort when they should have ?

    I think my argument stands up based on Kerry teams winning 9 of 18 junior All Irelands and 6 out of 15 intermediate.


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    #13
    GAA Beo
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 195 ✭✭GAA Beo


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    So my argument does not stand based on some Cork team not beating Beaufort when they should have ?

    I think my argument stands up based on Kerry teams winning 9 of 18 junior All Irelands and 6 out of 15 intermediate.
    Didn't know those stats, pretty unbelievable stuff? The standard of club football in Kerry must be top table.


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    #14
    TrueGael
    Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭TrueGael


    Anti Kerry Brigade as usual missing the point.

    There are no Superclubs as the two big towns have multiple clubs so there is no ridiculous catchment area for any 1 club

    The strength in Kerry club Football lies in the depth rather than a bunch of Superclubs at the top - Beaufort as pointed out only beat Cork Champions by a point in Extra Time, Dundalk by 2 in the Semi Final, Na Gaeil by 1 in AET, Churchill by 1 in the Kerry Semi

    People read way too much into league standings, Churchill who they beat in the Semi were Division 5 in 2018. Kenmare were nearly relegated from Division 2 last year yet they are Senior - missing County Players and players going to America for the Summer skews the County League positions

    Kilkenny has 12 Senior + Intermediate Clubs yet not a peep from the ABK's...........................


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    #15
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,007 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    GAA Beo wrote: »
    Didn't know those stats, pretty unbelievable stuff? The standard of club football in Kerry must be top table.

    Interestingly they have only had two senior club final appearances (one win, one loss) in that period.


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    #16
    PARlance
    Registered Users Posts: 21,093 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Whatever about the fairness, it's a excellent system if done right.


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    #17
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    PARlance wrote: »
    Whatever about the fairness, it's a excellent system if done right.

    I think the argument is that we should scrap it and revert back to the mediocre systems that others use as ours is working too well.


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    #18
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    Divisional teams should be in all county championships,But realistically there are far too many senior club teams in some counties diluting the rest.

    If you asked a fella "what club is he from?" the follow up is usually "are ye Senior?"..Its kinda looked down on if you are junior.

    In Kerry it don't matter if your club is Senior/Inter or Junior because you have the opportunity to play at a higher standard at multiple times over the season at Divisional Leagues/Championships,County Championship & County Leagues.


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    #19
    PARlance
    Registered Users Posts: 21,093 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Just out of interest, anyone have a breakdown of the Kerry squad versus Dublin, in terms of their clubs status?


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    #20
    GAA Beo
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 195 ✭✭GAA Beo


    TrueGael wrote: »
    Anti Kerry Brigade as usual missing the point.

    There are no Superclubs as the two big towns have multiple clubs so there is no ridiculous catchment area for any 1 club

    The strength in Kerry club Football lies in the depth rather than a bunch of Superclubs at the top - Beaufort as pointed out only beat Cork Champions by a point in Extra Time, Dundalk by 2 in the Semi Final, Na Gaeil by 1 in AET, Churchill by 1 in the Kerry Semi

    People read way too much into league standings, Churchill who they beat in the Semi were Division 5 in 2018. Kenmare were nearly relegated from Division 2 last year yet they are Senior - missing County Players and players going to America for the Summer skews the County League positions

    Kilkenny has 12 Senior + Intermediate Clubs yet not a peep from the ABK's...........................

    Why is there a GAA club in Kerry called Churchill? What sort of name is that for a GAA club, even the Dubs wouldn't do such a thing.


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    #21
    Utopia Parkway
    Registered Users Posts: 17,313 ✭✭✭✭Utopia Parkway


    PARlance wrote: »
    Whatever about the fairness, it's a excellent system if done right.


    Great system internally. No question about that. I don't actually think anyone is debating that point. But unfair when their intermediate and junior representatives have to play clubs from other counties.


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    #22
    Amprodude
    Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭Amprodude


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    So my argument does not stand based on some Cork team not beating Beaufort when they should have ?

    I think my argument stands up based on Kerry teams winning 9 of 18 junior All Irelands and 6 out of 15 intermediate.

    You are saying that Beaufort were senior standard quality team playing in a junior competition and sligo team are just a junior team. What I'm trying to get across is that Dromtariffe were junior in Cork for along time playing in duhallow division where the standard of football isn't the greatest and they were so close to beating a team that was supposed to be a way superior to them. Beaufort were lucky to get over the line that day and players from Beaufort will tell you that. You need to be good enough but you also need a bit of luck. Normally when you win munster in that grade you win the All Ireland. If Beaufort didn't win that day it would be Dromtariffe with the Cup.


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    #23
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,007 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    GAA Beo wrote: »
    Why is there a GAA club in Kerry called Churchill? What sort of name is that for a GAA club, even the Dubs wouldn't do such a thing.

    Because that's the name of the village.

    Well the pitch is actually in Spa but Churchill is also close by.

    But don't go confusing Spa the village that Churchill GAA club is in with Spa the GAA club in Killarney :)


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    #24
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,007 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Amprodude wrote: »
    You are saying that Beaufort were senior standard quality team playing in a junior competition and sligo team are just a junior team. What I'm trying to get across is that Dromtariffe were junior in Cork for along time playing in duhallow division where the standard of football isn't the greatest and they were so close to beating a team that was supposed to be a way superior to them. Beaufort were lucky to get over the line that day and players from Beaufort will tell you that. You need to be good enough but you also need a bit of luck. Normally when you win munster in that grade you win the All Ireland. If Beaufort didn't win that day it would Dromtariffe with the Cup.

    Something like that.

    The quality of the junior team in Kerry is better because some of that junior team get the opportunity to play senior with their divisional team.
    Whereas in other countries a junior player only ever get to play with and against other junior players.


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    #25
    Amprodude
    Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭Amprodude


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Something like that.

    The quality of the junior team in Kerry is better because some of that junior team get the opportunity to play senior with their divisional team.
    Whereas in other countries a junior player only ever get to play with and against other junior players.

    I think if a junior team has good players and are fit and well coached with a good manager they would go long ways in that grade. Look what the 2018 All Ireland junior champions did and the road they took to get there.


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    #26
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Amprodude wrote: »
    You are saying that Beaufort were senior standard quality team playing in a junior competition and sligo team are just a junior team. What I'm trying to get across is that Dromtariffe were junior in Cork for along time playing in duhallow division where the standard of football isn't the greatest and they were so close to beating a team that was supposed to be a way superior to them. Beaufort were lucky to get over the line that day and players from Beaufort will tell you that. You need to be good enough but you also need a bit of luck. Normally when you win munster in that grade you win the All Ireland. If Beaufort didn't win that day it would be Dromtariffe with the Cup.

    5 of the last 8 Cork County Junior winners have been Duhallow clubs (Kanturk 2011, Rockchapel 2012, Millstreet 2014, Knocknagree 2017 and Dromtarriffe 2018). The standard of the Duhallow Junior grade will be low now though with the amount of clubs gone up.

    Interestingly, Knocknagree and Dromtarriffe lost the Duhallow Championship both to Boherbue in the last 2 years, going on to win the county since the rule to leave both the winners and runners up of the divisional championships into the county championship was introduced in 2017. Of the 4 finals Knocknagree played last year (Duhallow, Cork, Munster and All Ireland), the only one they lost was their divisional final vs Boherbue.


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    #27
    PARlance
    Registered Users Posts: 21,093 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Utopia Parkway wrote: »
    Great system internally. No question about that. I don't actually think anyone is debating that point. But unfair when their intermediate and junior representatives have to play clubs from other counties.

    It's not a level playing field but I wouldn't exactly say it's unfair... because any County can adopt that format.

    Rather than looking at Kerry and saying it's unfair, people (most counties) should be looking internally and saying why don't we do that.

    It's a massive advantage for player development and is very fair in the sense that it gives good lads from small clubs a chance to compete with the best internally.


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    #28
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    PARlance wrote: »
    It's not a level playing field but I wouldn't exactly say it's unfair... because any County can adopt that format.

    Rather than looking at Kerry and saying it's unfair, people (most counties) should be looking internally and saying why don't we do that.

    It's a massive advantage for player development and is very fair in the sense that it gives good lads from small clubs a chance to compete with the best internally.

    As you said it's not unfair but it's not a level playing field.

    My problem would be if every county copies Kerry and starts paring back their divisions smaller and smaller so that they're sending better teams to the intermediate and junior club championships. This would dilute the spirit of the junior and intermediate championships in my eyes, removing the opportunity for the smallest clubs to realistically dream of provincial or all ireland titles.


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    #29
    Poker Face
    Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭Poker Face


    johnconnors wrote: »
    Just as a matter of interest, was it difficult to get this system set up in Kerry initially? How did inter club and inter parish rivalry work out? I ask this in view of the amount of senior hurling clubs here in Tipperary, where the majority of them are certainly not of senior standard. Yet, the regional divisional boards persist with running separate championships that are of little relevance. E.g, the west division has only 2 senior teams. But every time a move is made to change or improve the system, the parochial instinct takes hold.

    Not sure you will find anyone here that will answer that for you as you are at least going back to the 40's, if not even before it, that divisional teams have played in the county championship.


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    #30
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    As you said it's not unfair but it's not a level playing field.

    My problem would be if every county copies Kerry and starts paring back their divisions smaller and smaller so that they're sending better teams to the intermediate and junior club championships. This would dilute the spirit of the junior and intermediate championships in my eyes, removing the opportunity for the smallest clubs to realistically dream of provincial or all ireland titles.

    Beaufort has about 250 people, they are just good at football.


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    #31
    TITANIUM.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭TITANIUM.


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Beaufort has about 250 people, they are just good at football.

    sure tis is it. you'd swear that the club's lads are bringing up are massive club superpowers with a massive choice to pick from. our system is better than most but more importantly the standard of football is higher across the board hence the success across different competitions.


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