Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Kerry clubs grading system

«1

Comments

  • #2
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    His basic logic is correct- if you have more senior clubs then your intermediate standard will be weaker- it’s not exactly rocket science.

    However his lack of understanding/analysis of why this system has always been used in a rural county like Kerry is extremely evident.

    Divisional sides are a necessity or else top quality footballers would have spent their whole life not getting a look in due to geography.
    Example- Donnacha Walsh’s club have always been Junior B and the exposure he got playing for Mid Kerry helped make him the player that he is.

    On top of this-we had a few more senior clubs up until recently but there were a few serious hammerings being handed out.

    A third point would be that they wanted to shorten the senior championship due to concerns about player welfare & burn out.

    But simply- Kerry have always had this system (other counties have replicated it due to our success) and it predates these club championships by decades so to link them in a way that makes it sounds like some concerted attempt to hoodwink people is a bit disingenuous.

    It is McKenna though and if there isn’t a problem then by god he’ll engineer one


  • #3
    mystic86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭mystic86


    The divisional sides are in the county championship, rather than club championship. If a club wins the county championship they go on to represent Kerry in the all Ireland club's competition, if a divisional side wins then the winner of the senior club championship goes on to represent Kerry.

    I like having the divisional sides in the senior county championship, as it allows players from smaller parishes to play in big games and to make a name for themselves.

    Perhaps the club representing Kerry in the all Ireland intermediate club championship should be the winner of the intermediate club championship rather than the winner of the county intermediate, as this would address the issue of clubs being correctly allocated to their grade, as there are no divisional sides in the club championship taking up spaces in the senior, pushing teams down to intermediate.


  • #4
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    mystic86 wrote: »
    The divisional sides are in the county championship, rather than club championship. If a club wins the county championship they go on to represent Kerry in the all Ireland club's competition, if a divisional side wins then the winner of the senior club championship goes on to represent Kerry.

    I like having the divisional sides in the senior county championship, as it allows players from smaller parishes to play in big games and to make a name for themselves.

    Perhaps the club representing Kerry in the all Ireland intermediate club championship should be the winner of the intermediate club championship rather than the winner of the county intermediate, as this would address the issue of clubs being correctly allocated to their grade, as there are no divisional sides in the club championship taking up spaces in the senior, pushing teams down to intermediate.


    But there is no divisional teams at intermediate or junior, it's just clubs.

    What makes the junior and intermediate clubs so strong is that they might have a number of players playing senior county championship with their divisional team, and that experience is what makes the difference

    A junior club player in Kerry may be playing senior against the likes of the Crokes.

    A junior club player in Sligo is just playing junior.


  • #5
    mystic86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭mystic86


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    [/b]

    But there is no divisional teams at intermediate or junior, it's just clubs.

    What makes the junior and intermediate clubs so strong is that they might have a number of players playing senior county championship with their divisional team, and that experience is what makes the difference

    A junior club player in Kerry may be playing senior against the likes of the Crokes.

    A junior club player in Sligo is just playing junior.


    I know that, but the point being made above, and I can see where they are coming from, is that if the divisional teams were not in the senior county championship then the likes of Kilcummin would be in Senior instead, as there would need to be a certain minimum amount of teams competing at Senior. Hence why I said maybe the Intermediate club championship winner should represent Kerry instead of the Intermediate County Championship winner. But keep the practice at Senior County Championship the way it is, i.e. keep the Divisionals.


  • #6
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    mystic86 wrote: »
    I know that, but the point being made above, and I can see where they are coming from, is that if the divisional teams were not in the senior county championship then the likes of Kilcummin would be in Senior instead, as there would need to be a certain minimum amount of teams competing at Senior. Hence why I said maybe the Intermediate club championship winner should represent Kerry instead of the Intermediate County Championship winner. But keep the practice at Senior County Championship the way it is, i.e. keep the Divisionals.

    What are you talking about?
    There’s only an intermediate club championship- there is no other intermediate competition


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    mystic86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭mystic86


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    What are you talking about?
    There’s only an intermediate club championship- there is no other intermediate competition

    In that case my apologies, and so what is the OP and that person in the tweets above talking about?


  • #8
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I don't think anyone's criticising the use of divisional teams. It's the fact that Kerry have made their divisions so tight that the intermediate champion of Kerry is maybe the 9th best team in the county, whereas 9th position would be held by a mid ranking senior team in most other counties. This means the 9th best team in Kerry is playing the 13th/17th best team in other counties.

    We've had the opposite happen us in Meath, for a while we dominated the Leinster junior club football championship, winning 8 out of the 10 competitions before 2012 and losing the final of another. But then starting in 2012 we increased our intermediate and senior championship numbers to give clubs an ego boost and as logically follows our success rate has fallen off a cliff; one Meath team has reached the final since 2012. What's worse is the clubs recently voted to increase the number of teams in intermediate again which will weaken junior further.


  • #9
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    McKenna doesn't understand how the system works as he thinks Divisional sides keep clubs out of senior.

    Anyway. If other counties wish they can structure their competitions in ways which give them better chances of winning junior and intermediate club titles. The system in Kerry is designed to make each of the competitions of a high standard and broadly speaking is effective. The fact that it also leads to dominance of these All Ireland competitions is incidental.

    I would prefer - and imagine it's more likely - that we abandoned the All Ireland competitions rather than change our structure because the excellent one we have stops clubs from counties with worse structures from winning these competitions with their 15 year heritage.


  • #10
    Amprodude
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭Amprodude


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    [/b]

    But there is no divisional teams at intermediate or junior, it's just clubs.

    What makes the junior and intermediate clubs so strong is that they might have a number of players playing senior county championship with their divisional team, and that experience is what makes the difference

    A junior club player in Kerry may be playing senior against the likes of the Crokes.

    A junior club player in Sligo is just playing junior.

    Dromtarrife in Cork are a junior club playing in duhallow division playing in a junior grade which is in no great shapes until an All Ireland was won last year by Knocknagree. However, Dromtarrife were 1 point away in extra time beating the All Ireland champions Beaufort and should have beaten them having dominated the game for so long. Dromtarrife never played senior divisions so that argument doesnt stand up. If you are good enough and fit enough and coached well you will go a long way. That was a poor attempt by the Sligo team in an All Ireland Final.


  • #11
    Boom__Boom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    Antrim have 12 senior teams so St Endas would be ranked the 13th team in the county on the basis of winning their intermediate championship.

    Sligo have 10 senior teams and 10 intermediate teams, so Easkey winning the Junior would rank them as 21st team in the county.

    Kerry have 8 senior teams and 16 intermediate teams, so Kilcummin were the 9th ranked team in the county based on winning the intermediate and Beaufort winning the Junior Premier would rank them as 25th team in the county.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Amprodude wrote: »
    Dromtarrife in Cork are a junior club playing in duhallow division playing in a junior grade which is in no great shapes until an All Ireland was won last year by Knocknagree. However, Dromtarrife were 1 point away in extra time beating the All Ireland champions Beaufort and should have beaten them having dominated the game for so long. Dromtarrife never played senior divisions so that argument doesnt stand up. If you are good enough and fit enough and coached well you will go a long way. That was a poor attempt by the Sligo team in an All Ireland Final.

    So my argument does not stand based on some Cork team not beating Beaufort when they should have ?

    I think my argument stands up based on Kerry teams winning 9 of 18 junior All Irelands and 6 out of 15 intermediate.


  • #13
    GAA Beo
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 195 ✭✭GAA Beo


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    So my argument does not stand based on some Cork team not beating Beaufort when they should have ?

    I think my argument stands up based on Kerry teams winning 9 of 18 junior All Irelands and 6 out of 15 intermediate.
    Didn't know those stats, pretty unbelievable stuff? The standard of club football in Kerry must be top table.


  • #14
    TrueGael
    Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭TrueGael


    Anti Kerry Brigade as usual missing the point.

    There are no Superclubs as the two big towns have multiple clubs so there is no ridiculous catchment area for any 1 club

    The strength in Kerry club Football lies in the depth rather than a bunch of Superclubs at the top - Beaufort as pointed out only beat Cork Champions by a point in Extra Time, Dundalk by 2 in the Semi Final, Na Gaeil by 1 in AET, Churchill by 1 in the Kerry Semi

    People read way too much into league standings, Churchill who they beat in the Semi were Division 5 in 2018. Kenmare were nearly relegated from Division 2 last year yet they are Senior - missing County Players and players going to America for the Summer skews the County League positions

    Kilkenny has 12 Senior + Intermediate Clubs yet not a peep from the ABK's...........................


  • #15
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    GAA Beo wrote: »
    Didn't know those stats, pretty unbelievable stuff? The standard of club football in Kerry must be top table.

    Interestingly they have only had two senior club final appearances (one win, one loss) in that period.


  • #16
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,333 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Whatever about the fairness, it's a excellent system if done right.


  • #17
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    PARlance wrote: »
    Whatever about the fairness, it's a excellent system if done right.

    I think the argument is that we should scrap it and revert back to the mediocre systems that others use as ours is working too well.


  • #18
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    Divisional teams should be in all county championships,But realistically there are far too many senior club teams in some counties diluting the rest.

    If you asked a fella "what club is he from?" the follow up is usually "are ye Senior?"..Its kinda looked down on if you are junior.

    In Kerry it don't matter if your club is Senior/Inter or Junior because you have the opportunity to play at a higher standard at multiple times over the season at Divisional Leagues/Championships,County Championship & County Leagues.


  • #19
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,333 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Just out of interest, anyone have a breakdown of the Kerry squad versus Dublin, in terms of their clubs status?


  • #20
    GAA Beo
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 195 ✭✭GAA Beo


    TrueGael wrote: »
    Anti Kerry Brigade as usual missing the point.

    There are no Superclubs as the two big towns have multiple clubs so there is no ridiculous catchment area for any 1 club

    The strength in Kerry club Football lies in the depth rather than a bunch of Superclubs at the top - Beaufort as pointed out only beat Cork Champions by a point in Extra Time, Dundalk by 2 in the Semi Final, Na Gaeil by 1 in AET, Churchill by 1 in the Kerry Semi

    People read way too much into league standings, Churchill who they beat in the Semi were Division 5 in 2018. Kenmare were nearly relegated from Division 2 last year yet they are Senior - missing County Players and players going to America for the Summer skews the County League positions

    Kilkenny has 12 Senior + Intermediate Clubs yet not a peep from the ABK's...........................

    Why is there a GAA club in Kerry called Churchill? What sort of name is that for a GAA club, even the Dubs wouldn't do such a thing.


  • #21
    Utopia Parkway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,372 ✭✭✭✭Utopia Parkway


    PARlance wrote: »
    Whatever about the fairness, it's a excellent system if done right.


    Great system internally. No question about that. I don't actually think anyone is debating that point. But unfair when their intermediate and junior representatives have to play clubs from other counties.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Amprodude
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭Amprodude


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    So my argument does not stand based on some Cork team not beating Beaufort when they should have ?

    I think my argument stands up based on Kerry teams winning 9 of 18 junior All Irelands and 6 out of 15 intermediate.

    You are saying that Beaufort were senior standard quality team playing in a junior competition and sligo team are just a junior team. What I'm trying to get across is that Dromtariffe were junior in Cork for along time playing in duhallow division where the standard of football isn't the greatest and they were so close to beating a team that was supposed to be a way superior to them. Beaufort were lucky to get over the line that day and players from Beaufort will tell you that. You need to be good enough but you also need a bit of luck. Normally when you win munster in that grade you win the All Ireland. If Beaufort didn't win that day it would be Dromtariffe with the Cup.


  • #23
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    GAA Beo wrote: »
    Why is there a GAA club in Kerry called Churchill? What sort of name is that for a GAA club, even the Dubs wouldn't do such a thing.

    Because that's the name of the village.

    Well the pitch is actually in Spa but Churchill is also close by.

    But don't go confusing Spa the village that Churchill GAA club is in with Spa the GAA club in Killarney :)


  • #24
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Amprodude wrote: »
    You are saying that Beaufort were senior standard quality team playing in a junior competition and sligo team are just a junior team. What I'm trying to get across is that Dromtariffe were junior in Cork for along time playing in duhallow division where the standard of football isn't the greatest and they were so close to beating a team that was supposed to be a way superior to them. Beaufort were lucky to get over the line that day and players from Beaufort will tell you that. You need to be good enough but you also need a bit of luck. Normally when you win munster in that grade you win the All Ireland. If Beaufort didn't win that day it would Dromtariffe with the Cup.

    Something like that.

    The quality of the junior team in Kerry is better because some of that junior team get the opportunity to play senior with their divisional team.
    Whereas in other countries a junior player only ever get to play with and against other junior players.


  • #25
    Amprodude
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭Amprodude


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Something like that.

    The quality of the junior team in Kerry is better because some of that junior team get the opportunity to play senior with their divisional team.
    Whereas in other countries a junior player only ever get to play with and against other junior players.

    I think if a junior team has good players and are fit and well coached with a good manager they would go long ways in that grade. Look what the 2018 All Ireland junior champions did and the road they took to get there.


  • #26
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Amprodude wrote: »
    You are saying that Beaufort were senior standard quality team playing in a junior competition and sligo team are just a junior team. What I'm trying to get across is that Dromtariffe were junior in Cork for along time playing in duhallow division where the standard of football isn't the greatest and they were so close to beating a team that was supposed to be a way superior to them. Beaufort were lucky to get over the line that day and players from Beaufort will tell you that. You need to be good enough but you also need a bit of luck. Normally when you win munster in that grade you win the All Ireland. If Beaufort didn't win that day it would be Dromtariffe with the Cup.

    5 of the last 8 Cork County Junior winners have been Duhallow clubs (Kanturk 2011, Rockchapel 2012, Millstreet 2014, Knocknagree 2017 and Dromtarriffe 2018). The standard of the Duhallow Junior grade will be low now though with the amount of clubs gone up.

    Interestingly, Knocknagree and Dromtarriffe lost the Duhallow Championship both to Boherbue in the last 2 years, going on to win the county since the rule to leave both the winners and runners up of the divisional championships into the county championship was introduced in 2017. Of the 4 finals Knocknagree played last year (Duhallow, Cork, Munster and All Ireland), the only one they lost was their divisional final vs Boherbue.


  • #27
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,333 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Utopia Parkway wrote: »
    Great system internally. No question about that. I don't actually think anyone is debating that point. But unfair when their intermediate and junior representatives have to play clubs from other counties.

    It's not a level playing field but I wouldn't exactly say it's unfair... because any County can adopt that format.

    Rather than looking at Kerry and saying it's unfair, people (most counties) should be looking internally and saying why don't we do that.

    It's a massive advantage for player development and is very fair in the sense that it gives good lads from small clubs a chance to compete with the best internally.


  • #28
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    PARlance wrote: »
    It's not a level playing field but I wouldn't exactly say it's unfair... because any County can adopt that format.

    Rather than looking at Kerry and saying it's unfair, people (most counties) should be looking internally and saying why don't we do that.

    It's a massive advantage for player development and is very fair in the sense that it gives good lads from small clubs a chance to compete with the best internally.

    As you said it's not unfair but it's not a level playing field.

    My problem would be if every county copies Kerry and starts paring back their divisions smaller and smaller so that they're sending better teams to the intermediate and junior club championships. This would dilute the spirit of the junior and intermediate championships in my eyes, removing the opportunity for the smallest clubs to realistically dream of provincial or all ireland titles.


  • #29
    Poker Face
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭Poker Face


    johnconnors wrote: »
    Just as a matter of interest, was it difficult to get this system set up in Kerry initially? How did inter club and inter parish rivalry work out? I ask this in view of the amount of senior hurling clubs here in Tipperary, where the majority of them are certainly not of senior standard. Yet, the regional divisional boards persist with running separate championships that are of little relevance. E.g, the west division has only 2 senior teams. But every time a move is made to change or improve the system, the parochial instinct takes hold.

    Not sure you will find anyone here that will answer that for you as you are at least going back to the 40's, if not even before it, that divisional teams have played in the county championship.


  • #30
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    As you said it's not unfair but it's not a level playing field.

    My problem would be if every county copies Kerry and starts paring back their divisions smaller and smaller so that they're sending better teams to the intermediate and junior club championships. This would dilute the spirit of the junior and intermediate championships in my eyes, removing the opportunity for the smallest clubs to realistically dream of provincial or all ireland titles.

    Beaufort has about 250 people, they are just good at football.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    TITANIUM.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭TITANIUM.


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Beaufort has about 250 people, they are just good at football.

    sure tis is it. you'd swear that the club's lads are bringing up are massive club superpowers with a massive choice to pick from. our system is better than most but more importantly the standard of football is higher across the board hence the success across different competitions.


  • #32
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,333 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Beaufort has about 250 people, they are just good at football.

    Split them in two!


  • #33
    BPKS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,225 ✭✭✭✭BPKS


    PARlance wrote: »
    Just out of interest, anyone have a breakdown of the Kerry squad versus Dublin, in terms of their clubs status?

    1 Shane Ryan (Rathmore) - Senior
    2 Peter Crowley (Laune Rangers) - Intermediate (but now in Division 4 of County League for first time I can remember)
    3 Jack Sherwood (Firies) - Junior A
    4 Brian Begley (An Ghaeltacht) - Intermediate
    5 Tadhg Morley (Templenoe) - Intermediate
    6 Paul Murphy (Rathmore) - Senior
    7 Tom O Sullivan (Dingle) - Senior
    8 Jack Barry (Na Gaeil) - Junior A
    9 Adrian Spillane (Templenoe) - Intermediate
    10 Diarmuid O Connor (Na Gaeil) - Junior A
    11 Sean O Shea (Kenmare) - Intermediate
    12 Dara Moynihan (Spa) - Intermediate
    13 Paul Geaney (Dingle) - Senior
    14 David Moran (Kerins O Rahillys) - Senior
    15 Stephen O Brien (Kenmare) - Intermediate

    16 Brian Kelly (Legion) - Senior
    17 Jonathan Lyne (Legion) - Senior
    18 Mikey Geaney (Dingle) - Senior
    19 Gavin Crowley (Templenoe) - Intermediate
    20 Gavin O Brien (Kerins O Rahillys) - Senior
    21 Tommy Walsh (Kerins O Rahillys) - Senior
    22 Mark Griffin (St Michaels Foilmore) - Junior A (I think they were relegated last year but not 100%)
    23 Jason Foley (Ballydonoghue) - Junior A
    24 Tomas O Se (An Ghaeltacht) - Intermediate
    25 Shane Enright (Tarbert) - Junior B
    26 Conor Geaney (Dingle) - Senior





    On the overall point being made by Ewan McKenna, I would just like to point out that in the semi final, Kilcummin won by 1 point against the Kildare and Leinster Intermediate champions while Beaufort won by 2 points against the Louth and Leinster Junior champions. Both games could easily have gone either way.


  • #34
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    There are 8 clubs in the Kerry senior championship and 16 in their intermediate from what I can see. So Junior is largely unaffected by divisional sides or diluting quality. And with 8 teams in senior, its 4 less than a lot of counties who play with 12, not a huge issue in the scheme of things. If other counties play with 16 or more, thats their issue, not Kerrys.


  • #35
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,333 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Cheers for that BPKS, some spread across the grades even allowing for less Senior teams.


  • #36
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    bruschi wrote: »
    There are 8 clubs in the Kerry senior championship and 16 in their intermediate from what I can see. So Junior is largely unaffected by divisional sides or diluting quality. And with 8 teams in senior, its 4 less than a lot of counties who play with 12, not a huge issue in the scheme of things. If other counties play with 16 or more, thats their issue, not Kerrys.

    Actually Sligo are in the middle of replicating this system currently, 8 teams in senior, 8 in intermediate and 8 in junior. IIRC the senior championship now has 8 teams and the restructuring of the Intermediate and Junior is to be completed following this year's competition.

    Already there have been benefits with Easkey this year winning a Connacht Junior title (shame about their AI Final performance but that's football), and Ballymote reaching a Connacht Junior Final in 2017.

    At present instead of the divisional teams though clubs at intermediate and junior grades are being given an option to enter an amalgamated side for the senior championship which as of yet isn't popular due to parish politics, player availability etc.
    My own opinion on the amalgamation idea is that it's stupid, just make divisional teams and completely copy the system if it's the way they want to go.

    No issues with it tbh, once done the Junior Championship in Sligo will be hotly contested each year as the Intermediate is (The Senior is a bit lopsided, Tourlestrane by far the best team at the moment).

    Up until now the Junior Championship would consist of about 3 first teams and a hodge podge of second teams from senior clubs making for some awful dire matches to watch and not testing a club until they hit the Provincial stages.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    easy peasy
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭easy peasy


    bruschi wrote: »
    There are 8 clubs in the Kerry senior championship and 16 in their intermediate from what I can see. So Junior is largely unaffected by divisional sides or diluting quality. And with 8 teams in senior, its 4 less than a lot of counties who play with 12, not a huge issue in the scheme of things. If other counties play with 16 or more, thats their issue, not Kerrys.

    But it does become an issue when taken in the context of the All Ireland Championship. There is no point in comparing with Sligo because the population of Sligo is less than half of Kerry.

    Compare say with Mayo - Mayo has 16 senior clubs, 16 intermediate clubs and the rest are junior. It makes no sense and there is no fairness in the intermediate champions of Mayo playing the intermediate champions of Kerry, its not a level playing field.

    1. The Kerry players probably play senior championship with their divisional team;
    2. The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are);
    3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.

    Taking all of this into consideration, along with the tradition in Kerry and the huge playing numbers. This makes a mockery of the All Ireland Intermediate Club Football Championship.

    Kerry have a great divisional system in place and it has great merits, but it should not be imposed on other counties. Naomh Eanna and Easkey were embarrassed the last day because they were playing teams that are a level above them.

    Finally, the population of Beaufort doesn't matter. If it did, Mullinalaghta should have been playing Beaufort the last day and not Crokes the next day.


  • #38
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Beaufort's population was posted in response to someone saying that the idea of the junior competition is for small clubs to be able to win and that Kerry's system makes a mockery of it.


  • #39
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    And again, just to point out - the divisional teams have no impact on Beaufort's positioning in junior, intermediate or senior.

    You move up a grade if you win your championship, the divisional teams have no connection to the process whatsoever.


  • #40
    Boom__Boom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    easy peasy wrote: »
    Kerry have a great divisional system in place and it has great merits, but it should not be imposed on other counties. .

    Kerry are absolutely fine if other counties want to keep using inferior structures for their county championship - Kerry have no interest in the world in imposing them on anyone.

    However it does get tiresome when people from other counties moan about this every year but do absolutely nothing in terms of rectifying it.

    From a Kerryman's point of view it's like someone turning up to a game of snooker and complaining that the opposition haven't tied one hand behind their back and then continuing to complain when told that there is no rule about actually have to tie your hand behind your back but still continuing to turn up every year with one hand tied behind their back, when the obvious solution of untying their hand continues to be ignored.


  • #41
    cms88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭cms88


    Why is this only an issue when it comes to Kerry? In hurling Kilkenny clubs have won six Intermediate and eight Junior titles yet nothing is said about it? Even in Leinster they've won eleven in Intermediate and and fourteen in Junior. Yet again not a word


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Duffryman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭Duffryman


    Kilkenny has 12 senior hurling clubs. So their intermediate champions can be regarded as the 13th best club in the county.

    Kerry only has 8 senior football clubs. So their intermediate champions are basically the 9th best.

    This answer might not satisfy you, but it's worth pointing out all the same.


  • #43
    TrueGael
    Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭TrueGael


    12+12=24, 8+16=24

    The KK side were 1/66 to win , the Kerry sides were 1/2 and 8/13

    If other counties are happy to have ridiculously high amounts of Senior clubs most of which haven't a prayer of winning that is their business - we aren't going change a superior system just because


  • #44
    Duffryman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭Duffryman


    TrueGael wrote: »
    we aren't going change a superior system just because

    Just because what? :D

    I'm not asking Kerry to change anything. I was just pointing out something I thought relevant to one aspect of what was asked.

    By the way, you obviously feel strongly that having district teams (or divisional teams...call 'em what you will) in the senior championship is a good thing. I'm genuinely curious about certain aspects of how this operates, as it's an idea that gets floated from time to time here in Wexford, without ever gathering much momentum.

    I started a new thread on it because I thought it would be worth discussing separately. It's at https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057955069

    Would you think about having a look and filling me in on some of the things I ask about?


  • #45
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Moreover, there is no connection between the club championships and county leagues, as occurs in some counties. Na Gaeil, for instance, have risen up the league pyramid, and will play in Division One in 2019, yet because they keep losing championship finals, they remain in Premier Junior.


  • #46
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    easy peasy wrote: »
    But it does become an issue when taken in the context of the All Ireland Championship. There is no point in comparing with Sligo because the population of Sligo is less than half of Kerry.

    Compare say with Mayo - Mayo has 16 senior clubs, 16 intermediate clubs and the rest are junior. It makes no sense and there is no fairness in the intermediate champions of Mayo playing the intermediate champions of Kerry, its not a level playing field.

    1. The Kerry players probably play senior championship with their divisional team;
    2. The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are);
    3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.

    Taking all of this into consideration, along with the tradition in Kerry and the huge playing numbers. This makes a mockery of the All Ireland Intermediate Club Football Championship.

    Kerry have a great divisional system in place and it has great merits, but it should not be imposed on other counties. Naomh Eanna and Easkey were embarrassed the last day because they were playing teams that are a level above them.

    Finally, the population of Beaufort doesn't matter. If it did, Mullinalaghta should have been playing Beaufort the last day and not Crokes the next day.

    couple of points on this.

    If Mayo play 16 in senior and 16 in intermediate, thats their structure. What do you want Kerry to do about it? Other counties have 12 and 12 set ups. If Mayo cant compete at Junior with their 33rd best team against another counties 25th best team, should all the other counties change their structure to suit Mayo? Yeah it may not equate to being as fair as can be, but everyone knows the format.

    "the Kerry players play senior championship".
    Some do, most dont. If they all did, then it wouldnt be a divisional side. Again, this promotes football in Kerry and allows junior players play at a higher grade. Kerry get the best out of every corner in the county. Sean O Sullivan and Donncadh Walsh play for Cromane in the lowest level of Kerry football, but yet both got to be regulars and multiple all ireland winners. Are there many other counties who have junior B players being mainstays on their county teams?

    " The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are)"
    I'm not sure why this makes any difference. There are senior teams in Kerry in Division 2. League and championship dont intertwine like the vast majority of counties. League is a means to keep players playing, mostly without county players being present, hence why some clubs do better as they wouldnt be missing their top men if they arent on county teams.


    3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.
    Thats true. And they could be up against another counties 13th best team. Not exactly the fairest set up, but again, should Kerry be penalised for it?


    Realistically, Kerry should only worry about themselves. I greatly admire their divisional representation and how lower grade players will get opportunities to play at the highest level in the county. It affords a player to play at the highest level but not having to leave his club.


  • #47
    easy peasy
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭easy peasy


    bruschi wrote: »
    couple of points on this.

    If Mayo play 16 in senior and 16 in intermediate, thats their structure. What do you want Kerry to do about it? Other counties have 12 and 12 set ups. If Mayo cant compete at Junior with their 33rd best team against another counties 25th best team, should all the other counties change their structure to suit Mayo? Yeah it may not equate to being as fair as can be, but everyone knows the format.

    "the Kerry players play senior championship".
    Some do, most dont. If they all did, then it wouldnt be a divisional side. Again, this promotes football in Kerry and allows junior players play at a higher grade. Kerry get the best out of every corner in the county. Sean O Sullivan and Donncadh Walsh play for Cromane in the lowest level of Kerry football, but yet both got to be regulars and multiple all ireland winners. Are there many other counties who have junior B players being mainstays on their county teams?

    " The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are)"
    I'm not sure why this makes any difference. There are senior teams in Kerry in Division 2. League and championship dont intertwine like the vast majority of counties. League is a means to keep players playing, mostly without county players being present, hence why some clubs do better as they wouldnt be missing their top men if they arent on county teams.


    3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.
    Thats true. And they could be up against another counties 13th best team. Not exactly the fairest set up, but again, should Kerry be penalised for it?


    Realistically, Kerry should only worry about themselves. I greatly admire their divisional representation and how lower grade players will get opportunities to play at the highest level in the county. It affords a player to play at the highest level but not having to leave his club.

    I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

    If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.


  • #48
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    easy peasy wrote: »
    I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

    If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

    In relation to the Junior All-Ireland, the competition rules require a completely new squad to participate after a victory, so if other counties can't take advantage, they need to look at their internal structures. Another problem with the championship is a lack of interest in Ulster, with Cavan playing in Leinster as a result.


  • #49
    ciarriaithuaidh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ciarriaithuaidh


    easy peasy wrote: »
    I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

    If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

    Ah here, if you drag that into the debate, forget about it! What has that got to do with the club structure? All that tells you is that other counties aren't taking the Junior Inter-county seriously when Kerry (minus all Senior panel and ALL Junior panel from year previous) can win each year.

    I don't know if anyone has mentioned or if you've realised this, but Beaufort won their semi-final by 12-10. (Kilcummin won their Intermediate Semi 11-10 also btw!). You seem to just be looking at finals when judging competitions as a whole.
    Dromtarriffe from Cork took Beaufort to extra time back in December and they play in the FOURTH TIER of Cork football, i.e: number 55 in club pecking order.

    Kerry clubs have a good record at Junior level because even the lowest clubs in Kerry take preparation very seriously and play in a well structured County League competition, County Championship AND divisional championship - which allows them to have a cut off teams a level or 2 above them. They are the main reasons for the trend, not some "unfair advantage".


  • #50
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »
    Ah here, if you drag that into the debate, forget about it! What has that got to do with the club structure? All that tells you is that other counties aren't taking the Junior Inter-county seriously when Kerry (minus all Senior panel and ALL Junior panel from year previous) can win each year.

    I don't know if anyone has mentioned or if you've realised this, but Beaufort won their semi-final by 12-10. (Kilcummin won their Intermediate Semi 11-10 also btw!). You seem to just be looking at finals when judging competitions as a whole.
    Dromtarriffe from Cork took Beaufort to extra time back in December and they play in the FOURTH TIER of Cork football, i.e: number 55 in club pecking order.

    Kerry clubs have a good record at Junior level because even the lowest clubs in Kerry take preparation very seriously and play in a well structured County League competition, County Championship AND divisional championship - which allows them to have a cut off teams a level or 2 above them. They are the main reasons for the trend, not some "unfair advantage".

    Yes, the County Board have been excellent in running the fixtures calendar - club championships done and dusted in April, county leagues run off during the summer, with the senior championship following after the All-Ireland.


  • #51
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    easy peasy wrote: »
    I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

    If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

    Beaufort hammered the Sligo team in the final but had a lot of very tight matches along the way.
    They only beat a Division 5 team(bottom div in Kerry) after extra time in the semi final of the Kerry Junior Champ.

    Maybe the Sligo team just werent very good


  • Advertisement
Advertisement