Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

alps · 04-02-2019 12:06AM

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

He is a finance guru.
I'm not suprised you were asked.
You have all the qualities of a politition.

Quiet un politician like I would say.....he continues to answer all questions as it is...the good, the bad and the ugly, regardless of what people think or would like to hear...

In fact it would be a rare quality in a politician...

CloughCasey1 · 04-02-2019 10:46AM

alps wrote: »

Quiet un politician like I would say.....he continues to answer all questions as it is...the good, the bad and the ugly, regardless of what people think or would like to hear...

In fact it would be a rare quality in a politician...

For once I was giving him credit. He has a strong voice and is not afraid to back what he believes in. Not all politicians are scumbags ya know. Unfortunatly he may have called the whole beef plan right from the outset. Still hope you are wrong Wrangler, but they dont seem to be gaining any traction.

wrangler · 04-02-2019 01:04PM

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

For once I was giving him credit. He has a strong voice and is not afraid to back what he believes in. Not all politicians are scumbags ya know. Unfortunatly he may have called the whole beef plan right from the outset. Still hope you are wrong Wrangler, but they dont seem to be gaining any traction.

It'd be one time I wouldn't mind admitting I was wrong, they'll make no progress until legislation castrates the Competition Authority, scandalous allowing a public service nobble a sector of self employed such as us with all the odds stacked against us already. fuc....rs

coolshannagh28 · 04-02-2019 03:32PM

wrangler wrote: »

It'd be one time I wouldn't mind admitting I was wrong, they'll make no progress until legislation castrates the Competition Authority, scandalous allowing a public service nobble a sector of self employed such as us with all the odds stacked against us already. fuc....rs

This feeds into a debate regarding the redistribution of subsidy back to the govt via Teagasc etc and the fairly punitive attitude of the state sector towards agriculture not replicated in countries such as France , and to what end as most of our beef is used as a cheap commodity product .

wrangler · 04-02-2019 04:42PM

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

This feeds into a debate regarding the redistribution of subsidy back to the govt via Teagasc etc and the fairly punitive attitude of the state sector towards agriculture not replicated in countries such as France , and to what end as most of our beef is used as a cheap commodity product .

Anytime I was in france, farmers were getting less than we were for cattle.
It's the feedback of funds into teagasc/govt that incentivises the Govt to dream up our schemes, with the tax regime here most of the BPS/subsidies ends up in revenue

patsy_mccabe · 04-02-2019 06:42PM

Exactly, Revenue acts in it's own self interest. Just like everyone else.

Bass Reeves · 05-02-2019 09:10AM

Lads blaming Revenue or the Competition Authority are the same as lads blaming Dairy beef for there problems. They fail to see the picture or the issues. The BPM was always going to be under pressure especially when it was too focused on suckler production. There is twice as many dairy beef cattle slaughtered as suckler bred cattle.

The Competition Authority is toothless it has not got the funds to follow real anti competitive issues. Look at the insurance issue it was the European CA that put a certain amount of manners on the insurance industry by it raids last year. I know the IFA was blind sided in the early noughties by them but sulking in the corner and using it as an excuse since, is like a child sulking in the corner because it toy was removed by being bold. They have never tried to engage since with the CA against the processors.

Talking about withdrawing product is exactly the same as asking milk producers to stop supplying milk a virtual impossibility as it throws all the cost onto one sector of the beef industry, the lad that finishes cattle. It then build up a back log of cattle which the processors prey on. Until lads are willing to lobby for producer groups for finishers we are at nothing, until the Farm organisations ( all of them IFA, ICSA, ICMSA, BPM Macra etc) are willing to point out about the the anti competitive nature of the processors filling there own feedlots and contracting in other bigger feedlots to finish cattle to control prices at certain times of year we will see no change in the system.

As well lads have to sit back and look at there own operation. The same lads that got burnt this year with bulls will be back out filling sheds next autumn without contracts and without knowing the finished price. The processors prey on this. Because of Nitrates smaller lads like me have exited winter finishing. You need to have access to tillage ground for nitrated to winter finish. Most lads winter finishing on a even a mid scale (50-100+ cattle) are using access to waste potatoes, or veg as well as grain off the combine to try to make a margin in the business. The processors prey on this know when lads have stocks of feed in place they have to cash it in.

I had to laugh at blaming revenue we have the same tax consideration as all other small businesses. All right unlike a lot of other we have not got the benefit of handing cash and being able to siphon off a bit but neither can the dairy industry. The tax system is fairly clear in this country but driving around in Landcruisers and writing off expensive tractors rather than putting money in pension funds or making sure your land is well fenced is not tax efficient. It often adds costs into a system taht cannot take it. No point in blaming revenue for the system. Now all self employed have nearly all the extra tax credit that the PAYE worker has as well as the ability to write off a certain amount of personnel expenses. from motoring, telephone, ESB as well as using family credits against farm income.

But no lets March to Dublin, or chain trollys, or something else stupid becase we cannot be seen to lobby against other farmers even though the vast majority are getting it up the 4ole from the present system. No we will go and lobby for select producer groups, look for low interest loans for the select few, lobby for those on payments above 60K which is over 1.5 times the average Irish wage. We have Phil Hogan complaining about the fractures in the Irish lobby system because maybe for the first time there is few orgainsation lobbying for the smaller farmers.

wrangler · 05-02-2019 10:21AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Lads blaming Revenue or the Competition Authority are the same as lads blaming Dairy beef for there problems. They fail to see the picture or the issues. The BPM was always going to be under pressure especially when it was too focused on suckler production. There is twice as many dairy beef cattle slaughtered as suckler bred cattle.

The Competition Authority is toothless it has not got the funds to follow real anti competitive issues. Look at the insurance issue it was the European CA that put a certain amount of manners on the insurance industry by it raids last year. I know the IFA was blind sided in the early noughties by them but sulking in the corner and using it as an excuse since, is like a child sulking in the corner because it toy was removed by being bold. They have never tried to engage since with the CA against the processors.

Talking about withdrawing product is exactly the same as asking milk producers to stop supplying milk a virtual impossibility as it throws all the cost onto one sector of the beef industry, the lad that finishes cattle. It then build up a back log of cattle which the processors prey on. Until lads are willing to lobby for producer groups for finishers we are at nothing, until the Farm organisations ( all of them IFA, ICSA, ICMSA, BPM Macra etc) are willing to point out about the the anti competitive nature of the processors filling there own feedlots and contracting in other bigger feedlots to finish cattle to control prices at certain times of year we will see no change in the system.

As well lads have to sit back and look at there own operation. The same lads that got burnt this year with bulls will be back out filling sheds next autumn without contracts and without knowing the finished price. The processors prey on this. Because of Nitrates smaller lads like me have exited winter finishing. You need to have access to tillage ground for nitrated to winter finish. Most lads winter finishing on a even a mid scale (50-100+ cattle) are using access to waste potatoes, or veg as well as grain off the combine to try to make a margin in the business. The processors prey on this know when lads have stocks of feed in place they have to cash it in.

I had to laugh at blaming revenue we have the same tax consideration as all other small businesses. All right unlike a lot of other we have not got the benefit of handing cash and being able to siphon off a bit but neither can the dairy industry. The tax system is fairly clear in this country but driving around in Landcruisers and writing off expensive tractors rather than putting money in pension funds or making sure your land is well fenced is not tax efficient. It often adds costs into a system taht cannot take it. No point in blaming revenue for the system. Now all self employed have nearly all the extra tax credit that the PAYE worker has as well as the ability to write off a certain amount of personnel expenses. from motoring, telephone, ESB as well as using family credits against farm income.

But no lets March to Dublin, or chain trollys, or something else stupid becase we cannot be seen to lobby against other farmers even though the vast majority are getting it up the 4ole from the present system. No we will go and lobby for select producer groups, look for low interest loans for the select few, lobby for those on payments above 60K which is over 1.5 times the average Irish wage. We have Phil Hogan complaining about the fractures in the Irish lobby system because maybe for the first time there is few orgainsation lobbying for the smaller farmers.

I still maintain if you form a group and produce what the market requires you won't need legislation to compel processors to talk to you.
The price of beef at the moment is the price across Europe and aprt from a few niche markets, it's the price you have to aim for.
As I said before I fear the beef in Ireland is going to go the way of a lot of other industries, heck we used to even make cars one time.
Apparently we can't produce it as cheap as other countries

Just edited to say that the IFA were warned about price fixing in 2013 and I can't remember what year but they were raided not long ago ,
Also there were farmers arrested for protesting so they have locked horns a few times since, But those who stand back and let others work wouldn't know that

wrangler · 05-02-2019 10:36PM

Good to see BPM moving forward with selling beef, I've said many times here to get the finger out and sell beef themselves and then they'll know what beef is worth....... better than whingeing anyway

_Brian · 06-02-2019 09:00AM

wrangler wrote: »

I still maintain if you form a group and produce what the market requires you won't need legislation to compel processors to talk to you.
The price of beef at the moment is the price across Europe and aprt from a few niche markets, it's the price you have to aim for.
As I said before I fear the beef in Ireland is going to go the way of a lot of other industries, heck we used to even make cars one time.
Apparently we can't produce it as cheap as other countries

Just edited to say that the IFA were warned about price fixing in 2013 and I can't remember what year but they were raided not long ago ,
Also there were farmers arrested for protesting so they have locked horns a few times since, But those who stand back and let others work wouldn't know that

We can’t produce beef cheaply here because of the thght regulation being imposed on behalf of the EU.
That’s fine and they return direct payments as way of compensation for this. However because of the continued skewed interference of the IFA the department have not ensured that the direct supports gontontue correct farms in the correct proportions.

There has been shocking cronyism involved with protecting the payments of “the boys” down through the years being more important than ensuring fairness. The result is a bunch collecting way more than their share thus starving new entrants etc from their share. The IFA are as guilty in the damage to the beef sector as Larry G amd pals.

wrangler · 06-02-2019 11:00AM

_Brian wrote: »

We can’t produce beef cheaply here because of the thght regulation being imposed on behalf of the EU.
That’s fine and they return direct payments as way of compensation for this. However because of the continued skewed interference of the IFA the department have not ensured that the direct supports gontontue correct farms in the correct proportions.

There has been shocking cronyism involved with protecting the payments of “the boys” down through the years being more important than ensuring fairness. The result is a bunch collecting way more than their share thus starving new entrants etc from their share. The IFA are as guilty in the damage to the beef sector as Larry G amd pals.

I would be very critical of the way that the new entrants in partnerships have gone too, alright a young fellow renting land and farming it himself but this idea of getting money and only being on the farm an odd time is unfair.
More than one parent has said to me thir workload has increased because of it and one father even admitted to me that they weren't really entitled to it
Good suckler farmers on small farm with maybe €500+/ha lost heavily since the last CAP reform, because of ''levelling'' of payments, a lot of their money was redistibuted to intensive dairy farmers. there's alot more of those suckler farmers than the sheiks and stud owners people whinge about.
Any one can be a young farmer it seems, there's only a few inspections.
Leveling payments certainly isn't the answer, and no organisation is going to redistribute it unless those with an agenda, very easy for icsa to say take it off the dairy farmers when they don't have dairy members or hill farmers that want it taken from eveyone except them.
Some sectors think that those that buy their store cattle should get nothing, that'd work well in the mart alright.
THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM IF EVERY ONE HAD MAXIMISED THEIR PAYMENTS IN THE NINETIES

alps · 06-02-2019 11:33AM

wrangler wrote: »

I
THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM IF EVERY ONE HAD MAXIMISED THEIR PAYMENTS IN THE NINETIES

I'm taking cover....this is the event Nostradamus predicted....

Hope it will be a short war

Bass Reeves · 06-02-2019 11:36AM

_Brian wrote: »

We can’t produce beef cheaply here because of the thght regulation being imposed on behalf of the EU.
That’s fine and they return direct payments as way of compensation for this. However because of the continued skewed interference of the IFA the department have not ensured that the direct supports gontontue correct farms in the correct proportions.

There has been shocking cronyism involved with protecting the payments of “the boys” down through the years being more important than ensuring fairness. The result is a bunch collecting way more than their share thus starving new entrants etc from their share. The IFA are as guilty in the damage to the beef sector as Larry G amd pals.

IFA are isolated on the payments issue. Louise Hogan wrote an article in the FI yesterday about it. She points out how out of step with lots of farmers that IFA are. It si not online si I cannot link it. All the rest of the farm organisations are in favour of the cap which as one farm leader said was actually 100k for those with super high. They all rubbised the IFA stance on farm labour being allowed to claim the payment.

TBH the more I think about it I consider that it should be capped lower. The higher cap allows the situation where dairy farmers are able to access land and use payments to pay super high rents. The 60K cap will prevent some of this but a lower cap at the average industrial wage would be of more benefit to other farming sectors. However the government want to limit the beef sector as dairy produce is worth more to the country. However this may lead to a problem down the line with nitrates and with the image of the dairy industry if large calf numbers are slaughtered

wrangler wrote: »

THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM IF EVERY ONE HAD MAXIMISED THEIR PAYMENTS IN THE NINETIES

If I remember right by the mid 90's the suckler quota came in and as well we were limited by the amount of steer and bull premium we could claim. The pot of money was capped that we could access so not sure if this claim holds water. I know I started farming at the virtual end of the ref years and at that stage the premium bulls, bullocks, slaughter premium etc were all often cut by up to 10%. We were at or near at our stock limits from the late 90's on

patsy_mccabe · 06-02-2019 11:58AM

If I remember right, weanling premium was £150, 18 month £150, extensification £80 and slaughter premium £80. I remember buying weanlings with no 'punches' drawn and claiming all that in the one year. Savage money when you think about it. What would it be worth today?

Mooooo · 06-02-2019 12:05PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

IFA are isolated on the payments issue. Louise Hogan wrote an article in the FI yesterday about it. She points out how out of step with lots of farmers that IFA are. It si not online si I cannot link it. All the rest of the farm organisations are in favour of the cap which as one farm leader said was actually 100k for those with super high. They all rubbised the IFA stance on farm labour being allowed to claim the payment.

TBH the more I think about it I consider that it should be capped lower. The higher cap allows the situation where dairy farmers are able to access land and use payments to pay super high rents. The 60K cap will prevent some of this but a lower cap at the average industrial wage would be of more benefit to other farming sectors. However the government want to limit the beef sector as dairy produce is worth more to the country. However this may lead to a problem down the line with nitrates and with the image of the dairy industry if large calf numbers are slaughtered

If I remember right by the mid 90's the suckler quota came in and as well we were limited by the amount of steer and bull premium we could claim. The pot of money was capped that we could access so not sure if this claim holds water. I know I started farming at the virtual end of the ref years and at that stage the premium bulls, bullocks, slaughter premium etc were all often cut by up to 10%. We were at or near at our stock limits from the late 90's on

What stops anyone else from doing the same, tillage lads prob do more of that

Bass Reeves · 06-02-2019 12:36PM

Mooooo wrote: »

What stops anyone else from doing the same, tillage lads prob do more of that

Capping will stop them as well however it is becoming rife in the dairy sector as dairy farmers pay rent and SFP to access land. You could start to see more realistic rents and it could see more of the payments being directed to active farmers

yosemitesam1 · 06-02-2019 12:39PM

wrangler wrote: »

I would be very critical of the way that the new entrants in partnerships have gone too, alright a young fellow renting land and farming it himself but this idea of getting money and only being on the farm an odd time is unfair.
More than one parent has said to me thir workload has increased because of it and one father even admitted to me that they weren't really entitled to it
Good suckler farmers on small farm with maybe €500+/ha lost heavily since the last CAP reform, because of ''levelling'' of payments, a lot of their money was redistibuted to intensive dairy farmers. there's alot more of those suckler farmers than the sheiks and stud owners people whinge about.
Any one can be a young farmer it seems, there's only a few inspections.
Leveling payments certainly isn't the answer, and no organisation is going to redistribute it unless those with an agenda, very easy for icsa to say take it off the dairy farmers when they don't have dairy members or hill farmers that want it taken from eveyone except them.
Some sectors think that those that buy their store cattle should get nothing, that'd work well in the mart alright.
THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ANY PROBLEM IF EVERY ONE HAD MAXIMISED THEIR PAYMENTS IN THE NINETIES

Surely the only logical way forward from here is to acknowledge that the world is awash with cheap beef,dairy and grains. Any payments going forward should be directly linked to environmental benefits, talk of current production, past production or keeping the status quo is total nonsense at this stage.
At least if environmental payments were strong it would suit beef farmers to do what the market wants them to do and stop producing like fools while whinging about prices.

wrangler · 06-02-2019 01:50PM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Surely the only logical way forward from here is to acknowledge that the world is awash with cheap beef,dairy and grains. Any payments going forward should be directly linked to environmental benefits, talk of current production, past production or keeping the status quo is total nonsense at this stage.
At least if environmental payments were strong it would suit beef farmers to do what the market wants them to do and stop producing like fools while whinging about prices.

these new generation one day a month young farmers will probably endorse that, but the majority of farmers carried on from the reference years at the same system, only for my health is packing in I'd farm the payments on in the same system and as I look at my neighboursthey are maximising their stocking rate too

Cavanjack · 06-02-2019 02:14PM

wrangler wrote: »

these new generation one day a month young farmers will probably endorse that, but the majority of farmers carried on from the reference years at the same system, only for my health is packing in I'd farm the payments on in the same system and as I look at my neighboursthey are maximising their stocking rate too

These once a month farmers are no different than the pensioners drawing big payments for keeping donkeys or a few cattle.

older by the day · 06-02-2019 02:20PM

That's the main problem with farmers, we are so busy looking over the ditch looking what the next fellow is getting or who has what. If we focused on beef price instead of picking at dairy beef or picking about entitlements the movement will do better.

wrangler · 06-02-2019 02:40PM

Cavanjack wrote: »

These once a month farmers are no different than the pensioners drawing big payments for keeping donkeys or a few cattle.

Keeping donkeys or a few cattle is probably a better farmer now with the way things have gone.

Willfarman · 06-02-2019 03:11PM

wrangler wrote: »

Keeping donkeys or a few cattle is probably a better farmer now with the way things have gone.

Well at least he’s not donating his time to funding another jet for the Goodman’s and producing cheap food to a wasteful ungrateful consumer.

Bass Reeves · 06-02-2019 04:57PM

older by the day wrote: »

That's the main problem with farmers, we are so busy looking over the ditch looking what the next fellow is getting or who has what. If we focused on beef price instead of picking at dairy beef or picking about entitlements the movement will do better.

Beef price will only solve part of the problem. Base at present is 3.73/kg even if it went another 40c/kg to 4.15/kg this would only be 140 euro on a 350kg DW steer or 120 euro on a 300DW heifer. Even if all that went to the store or weanling producer it will not keep him in business. The answer is a combination of things its not one straight problem to be resolved

gerryirl · 06-02-2019 06:51PM

wrangler wrote: »

Keeping donkeys or a few cattle is probably a better farmer now with the way things have gone.

Your right it sums up where we have got to. 2 years ago I was going to build another shed and a simple chat with my father one day telling him my plans. He said have you made much with the sheds you have already. Simple answer was not a lot. So why bother borrowing more money then he said. That ended the shed and cattle numbers will be reduced this year again Id say. I just cant bring myself to go out and buy the donkeys yet

Cattlepen · 06-02-2019 08:23PM

gerryirl wrote: »

Your right it sums up where we have got to. 2 years ago I was going to build another shed and a simple chat with my father one day telling him my plans. He said have you made much with the sheds you have already. Simple answer was not a lot. So why bother borrowing more money then he said. That ended the shed and cattle numbers will be reduced this year again Id say. I just cant bring myself to go out and buy the donkeys yet

If it’s any consolation a gennet would do me!!. I see in agriland that the cap reform might be deferred for up to 3 years. That would do me grand . I’d ride the gennet around the farm twice a day laughing at the good of it all

Robson99 · 06-02-2019 09:12PM

wrangler wrote: »

THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM IF EVERY ONE HAD MAXIMISED THEIR PAYMENTS IN THE NINETIES

Surely its time for it to be updated or revised. I'm suffering here because old fella hadn't maximised it for one reason or another. This generation is suffering or gaining based on something that happened 25 years ago

Grueller · 06-02-2019 09:15PM

wrangler wrote: »

these new generation one day a month young farmers will probably endorse that, but the majority of farmers carried on from the reference years at the same system, only for my health is packing in I'd farm the payments on in the same system and as I look at my neighboursthey are maximising their stocking rate too

You have some horn for the young farmer Wrangler.
I work off farm but run 80 sucklers. I am a young farmer. I get all the top ups etc.
BUT I get up at 5:45 every morning, in the yard for 6:00. Out of it at 7:50. Back in it at 5:30 to 7:30-8:00 every evening. I work 7:00 til 6:00 on Saturdays and 7:00 til dinner time most Sundays.
This is the reality for me and most young farmers around my area. Yes my father helps out by keeping an eye on cows during the day but he does not calve them and I never meet him in the yard as he only potters out about 9:30 and does a bit of pottering about.
If payments were levelled maybe we couls afford to work off farm less and actually give farming a go. No? Much easier to criticise a whole group even though the ladder has been pulled up by the older farmers.

wrangler · 06-02-2019 09:55PM

Grueller wrote: »

You have some horn for the young farmer Wrangler.
I work off farm but run 80 sucklers. I am a young farmer. I get all the top ups etc.
BUT I get up at 5:45 every morning, in the yard for 6:00. Out of it at 7:50. Back in it at 5:30 to 7:30-8:00 every evening. I work 7:00 til 6:00 on Saturdays and 7:00 til dinner time most Sundays.
This is the reality for me and most young farmers around my area. Yes my father helps out by keeping an eye on cows during the day but he does not calve them and I never meet him in the yard as he only potters out about 9:30 and does a bit of pottering about.
If payments were levelled maybe we couls afford to work off farm less and actually give farming a go. No? Much easier to criticise a whole group even though the ladder has been pulled up by the older farmers.

Our entitlements were only 12yrs in operation when the cutting started, Dairy farmers had their income protected for thirty years and no one seemed to complain, Beef was €240/kg in the nineties when we had to buy suckler quota to expand, entitlements were earned the same as milk quota. How you can argue that they should be levelled and then in the next breath say you have another income puzzles me........do you want to take entitlements from drystock farmers and give them to dairy farmers because that's what'll happen.
There's guys living in Dublin drawing all the top ups as you call them, are you happy with that happening, Apparently young farmers were allowed get entitlements and sell them just as quick, are you happy with that happening
The only way I'd see any merit in is heavily front load the first twenty hectares

Grueller · 06-02-2019 10:13PM

wrangler wrote: »

Our entitlements were only 12yrs in operation when the cutting started, Dairy farmers had their income protected for thirty years and no one seemed to complain, Beef was €240/kg in the nineties when we had to buy suckler quota to expand, entitlements were earned the same as milk quota. How you can argue that they should be levelled and then in the next breath say you have another income puzzles me........do you want to take entitlements from drystock farmers and give them to dairy farmers because that's what'll happen.
There's guys living in Dublin drawing all the top ups as you call them, are you happy with that happening, Apparently young farmers were allowed get entitlements and sell them just as quick, are you happy with that happening
The only way I'd see any merit in is heavily front load the first twenty hectares

What has another income to do with entitlements?
I work 30-35 hours per week on the farm average. Should I settle for less because I do 37 more elsewhere?
The local tillage men all do a bit of contracting as part of their livelihood. Cut them too.
A local dairy mans wife is a gp, cut him too.
Totally irrelevant and bordering on begrudgery and me feinism.

wrangler · 06-02-2019 10:24PM

Grueller wrote: »

What has another income to do with entitlements?
I work 30-35 hours per week on the farm average. Should I settle for less because I do 37 more elsewhere?
The local tillage men all do a bit of contracting as part of their livelihood. Cut them too.
A local dairy mans wife is a gp, cut him too.
Totally irrelevant and bordering on begrudgery and me feinism.

The farmers around you with no other income that you're happy enough to reduce their income, do you not see them, now that's the real mefeinism and begrudgery,
The real problem is and was that the payments weren't maximised on your farm in the nineties, farm capable of eighty cow suckler herd should have up to 50000+

Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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